The Other Side of Midnight - Richard C. Hoagland - Live Chat Thread

[Binaryspellbook]

Is there any photographic evidence of RCH knowing Asimov, Clarke and Roddenberry? Not calling him a liar but his stories about these great Sci-Fi people make out as if he was a guy who slept on their couches.

There is an essay out there somewhere called "The cruise and I." Written by Asimov regarding a cruise Hoagland set up to view the launch of Apollo 17. According to Hoagland Asimov wrote a hilariously funny essay about the whole affair. I have not read the essay but have been told that the cruise was a fucking disaster with the company losing $250,000 on the whole shenanigans. So I doubt Asimov was trying to be funny. He was telling it as it was.

The Cruise and I
Subject: personal reminiscences
First Published In: Jul-73, The Magazine of Fantasy and Science Fiction
Collection(s):
1973 The Tragedy of the Moon

So yes Hoagland did meet Asimov. That, however, doesn't mean he was best drinking buddies with him. As we all know. Hoagland merely has to brush past someone famous briefly in a hallway to claim them as "my good friend."

I think he knew Roddenberry given Hoagland's involvement in a campaign to keep Star Trek from being cancelled.
We will never know how close their relationship was given Hoagland's propensity for exaggeration and self-aggrandization.

I wish I could find that actual essay though.

[expat]

http://www.thewaythefutureblogs.com/2010/11/the-ship-of-foolishness-part-1-the-foreplay/

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/SS_Statendam_%281956%29

http://up-ship.com/blog/?p=6879

The space artist Don Davis was on board that floating disaster. These days Don is an active debunker of pseudoscience. Here's his page on the colors of Mars.

[K_Dubb]

What a great story!  Never heard that one before.  But Pohl writes that the organizers, including a veiled Hoagland, were not on board.  Though per the conference schedule he's due to address the Space Shuttle!

Though I admit I like the visualizing lunch at the Century Plaza in 1972 almost as much.  I wonder if Hoagie still has the snazzy jacket he was no doubt wearing.

[K_Dubb]

Video (or movie?) from the cruise?  God that looks like a blast!  The drinking!  The smoking!  The style!

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=JTrzxIh8jX8

[expat]

That was great! TVM for digging that up and posting.

[SciFiAuthor]

Video (or movie?) from the cruise?  God that looks like a blast!  The drinking!  The smoking!  The style!

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=JTrzxIh8jX8

Holy crap that must have been a blast. I was -3 at the time but I'd have gladly paid the 2k for that one just to punch Norman Mailer in the nutsack and throw him overboard for the good of all mankind. Frederick Pohl mentioned that someone brought pot on board. Gee, I wonder who that was *cough* Carl Sagan *cough*.

http://www.huffingtonpost.com/2013/05/31/carl-sagan-marijuana_n_3367112.html

Those were the days apparently. Now all anyone does at conventions is bitch about shitty book sales and the concession stand prices.

[chefist]

Holy crap that must have been a blast

Those were the days apparently. Now all anyone does at conventions is bitch about shitty book sales and the concession stand prices.

Back when it was cool and exciting to become a scientist or engineer...seems our present society only values entertainers, politicians and sports figures...

Great video though! I would have paid $2K too!

[SciFiAuthor]

Back when it was cool and exciting to become a scientist or engineer...seems our present society only values entertainers, politicians and sports figures...

Great video though! I would have paid $2K too!

It was the 80's that destroyed it. Smart people became nerds and intelligence became something that you hid, at least during school hours. At the same time the pop culture and politics became corporate and formulaic and as a result music, literature, etc. became dumbed down. That seems to be changing lately though.

[chefist]

It was the 80's that destroyed it. Smart people became nerds and intelligence became something that you hid, at least during school hours. At the same time the pop culture and politics became corporate and formulaic and as a result music, literature, etc. became dumbed down. That seems to be changing lately though.

Absolutely...and many became programmers...we emphasize computers too much...that technology has accelerated past the point of really being necessary...we need a working fusion reactor more than faster, smaller computers, smart phones and storage devices...

[ShayP]

It was the 80's that destroyed it. Smart people became nerds and intelligence became something that you hid, at least during school hours. At the same time the pop culture and politics became corporate and formulaic and as a result music, literature, etc. became dumbed down. That seems to be changing lately though.

Well said!

[SciFiAuthor]

Absolutely...and many became programmers...we emphasize computers too much...that technology has accelerated past the point of really being necessary...we need a working fusion reactor more than faster, smaller computers, smart phones and storage devices...

Yeah, that was the internet revolution that did that. All of us Gen X folks thought we were supposed to go into computers and IT and those fields got saturated. The fusion reactor will come faster than you think, Lockheed-Martin is working its ass off on one. Its one of a number of advances that are coming down the pike that will catch people by surprise. Another one is the quantum computer, someone somewhere is working on that and getting close enough that the NSA is studying security measures against a technology that's officially not supposed to be here for another 35 or 40 years.

[albrecht]

Yeah, that was the internet revolution that did that. All of us Gen X folks thought we were supposed to go into computers and IT and those fields got saturated. The fusion reactor will come faster than you think, Lockheed-Martin is working its ass off on one. Its one of a number of advances that are coming down the pike that will catch people by surprise. Another one is the quantum computer, someone somewhere is working on that and getting close enough that the NSA is studying security measures against a technology that's officially not supposed to be here for another 35 or 40 years.

Maybe it is me but I've noticed that kids these days are great "with technology" but seem to be lacking in the creation of it or how things work. They use their smartphones, tablets etc but don't program and when I asked don't even seem to be able to answer what OS version they are using, security settings, how to find stuff if it not "press screen," etc much less programming or creating software (or putting together hardware.) Stuff is designed to be throw-away and not "fixable," and stuff is often designed to be "idiot proof" and unless you hack it you can't manipulate stuff easily (aside from cosmetic changes.) I had a 19 year old relative who didn't know how to change a tire when he had a blow-out. Seriously. When questioned he didn't know even basics of how to check the various fluids for his car. I'm not talking working on but basic maintenance and safety. This kid is at a university.

[SciFiAuthor]

Well said!

It was also about that time that "new journalism" took dominance, of which the aforementioned Norman Mailer was a proponent. They took  ideas from fiction such as ecstatic truth and applied them to journalism supposedly to emphasize truth over fact. Today all that means is skewed, opinionated journalism taken as absolute fact by the masses.

[gabrielle]

I think that what you all are discussing is akin to what Hoagie is calling a disruption in the field.  I think we are on the verge of a post industrial revolution because of the rapid changes brought about by technology.  When the industrial revolution occurred, the old institutions crumbled or redefined themselves.  IMHO, we are witnessing a shake up in our old institutions as they attempt to deal with the changes brought about by the internet, the digital age, and major scientific advances.  I can't wait for the Art and Hoagie tonight.  It just keeps getting better.   

[zeebo]

Okay -- that and Neuromancer are on my list.  Am I the only one who loved Snow Crash?  (Or am I showing my sci-fi naivety?)

Snow Crash was a great read.  More entertaining and accessible than some of his later works imho. 

[SaucyRossy]

OPEN LINES TONIGHT

[SciFiAuthor]

I think that what you all are discussing is akin to what Hoagie is calling a disruption in the field.  I think we are on the verge of a post industrial revolution because of the rapid changes brought about by technology.  When the industrial revolution occurred, the old institutions crumbled or redefined themselves.  IMHO, we are witnessing a shake up in our old institutions as they attempt to deal with the changes brought about by the internet, the digital age, and major scientific advances.  I can't wait for the Art and Hoagie tonight.  It just keeps getting better.   

I think you're right, our old institutions are groaning and straining to keep up with the advance of technology and are woefully unprepared for the future. Over the next 40 years, for example, the vast majority of jobs will fall to automation. Economically, our system has absolutely no way of dealing with what happens when the entire human race goes unemployed, yet the system will drive that very automation because it saves money for the corporations. Eventually, the corporations have no market because it went unemployed and the only way to keep things going is nationalization of the means of production. It seems apparent that the end result of capitalism in a technologically advancing society is utopian socialism. Imagine how blind-sided the political order will be going through that transition.

[gabrielle]

OPEN LINES TONIGHT

Awesome!    Between Art and RCH, I am going to need caffeine injections soon!  I feel like a kid again.  Thanks Saucy and Redacted!

[gabrielle]

I think you're right, our old institutions are groaning and straining to keep up with the advance of technology and are woefully unprepared for the future. Over the next 40 years, for example, the vast majority of jobs will fall to automation. Economically, our system has absolutely no way of dealing with what happens when the entire human race goes unemployed, yet the system will drive that very automation because it saves money for the corporations. Eventually, the corporations have no market because it went unemployed and the only way to keep things going is nationalization of the means of production. It seems apparent that the end result of capitalism in a technologically advancing society is utopian socialism. Imagine how blind-sided the political order will be going through that phase of society.

Here comes the Sun King
https://youtu.be/64Vcl3QJSVA

[ShayP]

Maybe it is me but I've noticed that kids these days are great "with technology" but seem to be lacking in the creation of it or how things work. They use their smartphones, tablets etc but don't program and when I asked don't even seem to be able to answer what OS version they are using, security settings, how to find stuff if it not "press screen," etc much less programming or creating software (or putting together hardware.) Stuff is designed to be throw-away and not "fixable," and stuff is often designed to be "idiot proof" and unless you hack it you can't manipulate stuff easily (aside from cosmetic changes.) I had a 19 year old relative who didn't know how to change a tire when he had a blow-out. Seriously. When questioned he didn't know even basics of how to check the various fluids for his car. I'm not talking working on but basic maintenance and safety. This kid is at a university.

No. It's not just you.  I see it with nieces, nephews, my friend's kids, etc.  They all know a new version of something will be available soon and since it's all spoonfed to them, why care or why learn?  Don't get me wrong.  These kids are smart, but something is lacking.  I try not to be judgemental but it seems like they don't care about the history or process that lead to these devices, etc.  I also, from my experience, see no interest in the sciences whatsoever.  Zilch!  Yeah, rock star guys like DeGrasse-Tyson help (He is awesome IMO), but I just think they are just entertained by the subject and wouldn't think to go back to the sources who influenced him.

It's like the day they were born they were lead to believe that nothing existed before them.  I also think they have an inflated self worth. Narcissism, maybe?  When being admired for having the most 'selfies' or "friends" (on whatever social media device they're on) there's a problem.  Perhaps those born before 1980 would be the same way if we had the current technology?  My gut tells me 'No'.  Especially when I read SciFiAuthor's points regarding the change in culture, politics, journalism, and the corporate formula.  Then again....maybe things would have accelerated for the worse?  Meh...I dunno.

*Sigh*  If I continue typing, it will only seem like the incoherent nostalgic ramblings of a grumpy 44 year old man whose failures got the best of him and wants to take it out on the 'millennials' and those after.  I just look at my avatar and know I'm okay.

[K_Dubb]

*Sigh*  If I continue typing, it will only seem like the incoherent nostalgic ramblings of a grumpy 44 year old man

Don't feel too bad, buddy.  The people on that cruise were already talking about the American public's disaffection with the space program already way back in 1972.  Pohl himself writes

Several additional launches had been announced, but the fickle public had lost interest in space, and now they were all canceled.

and Sagan was pointing out the relatively small amount all those moon missions cost compared to the defense budget.  It's always been a tiny cadre of engineers that do the real work while the public maybe tunes in for the highlights.

[SciFiAuthor]

*Sigh*  If I continue typing, it will only seem like the incoherent nostalgic ramblings of a grumpy 44 year old man whose failures got the best of him and wants to take it out on the 'millennials' and those after.  I just look at my avatar and know I'm okay.

I think our whole generation is like that. We basically failed because we were stuck between the old way of doing things and the new technological order. Now we're middle aged and already yelling for the kids to get off the lawn.

[albrecht]

already yelling for the kids to get off the lawn.

And now governments and activists are telling us not even to have lawns in some places! Grumble grumble.

[K_Dubb]

It seems apparent that the end result of capitalism in a technologically advancing society is utopian socialism. Imagine how blind-sided the political order will be going through that transition.

We've got a long way to swing left before we're back to New-Deal socialism, Manhattan-Project-style government mobilizations or even Nixon-era price controls.  The only thing our generation has suffered from is decades of political and economic stability.

[SciFiAuthor]

We've got a long way to swing left before we're back to New-Deal socialism, Manhattan-Project-style government mobilizations or even Nixon-era price controls.  The only thing our generation has suffered from is decades of political and economic stability.

I don't think we'll have time for any sort of political adjustment period. We'll simply see staggering unemployment rates as everything gets automated and the system will be forced to put everyone on welfare until we come up with a suitable replacement system, perhaps a resource-based economy. Human government as we knew it will be obsolete within 40 years due to technological unemployment.

[gabrielle]

I don't think we'll have time for any sort of political adjustment period. We'll simply see staggering unemployment rates as everything gets automated and the system will be forced to put everyone on welfare until we come up with a suitable replacement system, perhaps a resource-based economy. Human government as we knew it will be obsolete within 40 years due to technological unemployment.

Enter Monsanto? 

[K_Dubb]

Just to get things back to Hoagie, he's a link back to the people who got us to the moon, even if all he was doing was running the old cruise-ship scam for them.  Yeah he name-drops but the stuff expat has posted recently just confirms he was rubbing shoulders with some pretty big names, way more than I thought, just knowing him from Art's old show as a kind of nut.

Pohl calls him a "communications genius" and that's a good description; he's got that evangelizing zeal that scientists and other nerds just can't manage.  For all his criticism of NASA, they could use more boosters like him.  We might wish he was a little more grounded in reality, but I think we're lucky to get him as is.

[ShayP]

I think our whole generation is like that. We basically failed because we were stuck between the old way of doing things and the new technological order. Now we're middle aged and already yelling for the kids to get off the lawn.

Yes!...thank you.  I feel like I'm on an island sometimes. 

[ShayP]

Just to get things back to Hoagie, he's a link back to the people who got us to the moon, even if all he was doing was running the old cruise-ship scam for them.  Yeah he name-drops but the stuff expat has posted recently just confirms he was rubbing shoulders with some pretty big names, way more than I thought, just knowing him from Art's old show as a kind of nut.

Pohl calls him a "communications genius" and that's a good description; he's got that evangelizing zeal that scientists and other nerds just can't manage.  For all his criticism of NASA, they could use more boosters like him.  We might wish he was a little more grounded in reality, but I think we're lucky to get him as is.

Salient points.   

[SaucyRossy]

OPEN LINES TONIGHT