ISIS

[FightTheFuture]

Regionally, there's currently four locations ( not including carrier groups) that we can fly out of: Jordan, Turkey, Qatar, Kuwait. Our drones are currently being launched out of one of those locations - the Pentagon is not revealing which.

I suspect with this limited operation, they have cobbled together a rather dodgy SAR contingency for the worst case scenario. The infrastructure just is not in place any longer for the kind of operations we saw during the war. Sometimes, you just have to roll the dice a little bit and take your calculated chances.

My fear is Obama decides to do the bare minimum in confronting this bunch. If that happens, we'll have another genocide.

[Yorkshire pud]

I think the presence of SF as a CSAR asset would be the best bet, just not sure this adminstration would make that happen with US forces in Iraq.  Other nations might be a bit more forthcoming in support of such efforts, at least we can hope.

Sure, you can launch shipboard CSAR forces betting on the come, but if you don't have tankers available to aerially refuel the helos and/or Ospreys in the event of a delay or something going south, those CSAR assets will have to go back to the ship.  Since KC-130s and/or MC-130s require regional, if not local air fields to operate in such an operation, not sure how available they'd be.

Agreed, a Super Hornet is pretty safe against what ISIS can bring to bear, but that's where the "golden BB" comes into play.  Remember those F-111s being brought down over NV by SKSs and Mosin-Nagants, and the F-117 being shot down over the Balkins by (redacted).  And there is always the "mechanical failure" (snicker) that took down the F-15E over Libya.  Regardless how they go down, if we can't get to them straight away, Obama is going to have to address the American people about the beheading (or worse) on live satellite feed of American aircrew.  If the American people have any balls, that's going to escalate things pretty quickly.  As I hinted earlier, that may be what Obama wants, to get US boots back on the ground in Iraq after hastily pulling our forces.

There was an interview on the Breakfast news here with a guy from Kurdistan and a US lecturer on S history and American studies..The Kurd is pissed that the West has betrayed the Kurds for many years, and the Prof said (essentially) that the present situation has moved so quickly that it's caught everyone out, and stems from a belief that the past conflicts would be simple, but it became apparent they're incredibly complex. He also added that the US believed the Kurds had the ability to fight off ISIS and have been surprised they didn't or couldn't.

He didn't think that there would be boots on the ground as there is simply no desire by the American people to get back into another fight half way around the world. Not that there was one last time. He didn't think however the airdrops and ground attacks by US aircraft would be very effective on their own. A case of do something but it's not enough (because no-one in the US wants it to happen, nor for that matter in Europe) or do enough and risk things escalating far more than they are now, and it be unpopular even if it didn't.

Take your pick or please yourselves.

[Uncle Duke]

Regionally, there's currently four locations ( not including carrier groups) that we can fly out of: Jordan, Turkey, Qatar, Kuwait. Our drones are currently being launched out of one of those locations - the Pentagon is not revealing which.

I suspect with this limited operation, they have cobbled together a rather dodgy SAR contingency for the worst case scenario. The infrastructure just is not in place any longer for the kind of operations we saw during the war. Sometimes, you just have to roll the dice a little bit and take your calculated chances.

My fear is Obama decides to do the bare minimum in confronting this bunch. If that happens, we'll have another genocide.

A fair point, I suppose nations in the region might allow Hercules tankers to operate from their air fields, but draw the line at bombed-up warplanes going out on combat missions.  As for the drones, I assumed they were flying out of Djibouti as they have in the past.   Certainly basing the drones in any of the nations you named would increase loiter time over the target area, assuming basing rights have been established.

[albrecht]

A fair point, I suppose nations in the region might allow Hercules tankers to operate from their air fields, but draw the line at bombed-up warplanes going out on combat missions.  As for the drones, I assumed they were flying out of Djibouti as they have in the past.   Certainly basing the drones in any of the nations you named would increase loiter time over the target area, assuming basing rights have been established.

Haven't the Kurds, if not de jure and least de facto, partially established a new "Kurdistan" including in a part of Iraq? They are one of the few over there who still seem to like us, at least a bit. Not sure what infrastructure is there but maybe things could re-fuel, re-arm, or take-off from there? It would piss off Turkey, who is NATO, but maybe we could talk to them back-channel and if we kept our limited based in the Iraqi part of "Kurdistan" and not the disputed Turkish region?

[PB the Deplorable]

Obama doesn't run the world. He's learned from his predecessor about pouring arms into areas that are volatile already. And simply saying 'supply this basketcase country with this weapon' isn't that simple...

What are you talking about 'pouring arms into' 'basketcase countries'?

The 3 specific requests for weapons from our allies that Obama turned down are 1) the Egyptian military, who asked for helicopters to fight the rump dead enders of the Moslim Brotherhood creating havoc in the Sinai, 2) the Ukraine military, who need military equipment to fight pro-Russian 'rebels' attacking them within their own country, and 3) the Kurds, our long time allies now trying to defend themselves from ISIS, asking for bullets. 


The Muslim Brotherhood operating in the Sinai threatens Egypt, Jordan and Israel

The US and the UK have a treaty with Ukraine to defend them that both countries are ignoring.  When the Soviet Union disintegrated, the Ukraine gave up the nukes that were located there in exchange for guarantees regarding their sovereignty.   They ought to be able to defend themselves against the group responsible for shooting down that passenger jet

The Kurds have established militia that has been defending themselves from attacks by Turkey and by Saddam Hussein for decades.  Look what ISIS has been doing to the other folks in the region.  The Kurds ought to be equipped to defend themselves from those assholes.


You know, when the US left Vietnam the South Vietnamese had things under control.  Then the Democrats in Congress later cut them off and refused to sell them supplies, ammunition, and spare parts - the North Vietnamese were then able to overrun them when they were no longer able to defend themselves. 

Denying weapons to our allies is outrageous.  Now it looks like we have to go back to Iraq because we (Obama) didn't leave them with proper security measures in place.

What a mess. 


In 2008 the economy freezes up, Islamic Jihad is on the run but we need to finish them off.  So we elect Barrack Obama, a typical dumb Lib when it comes to foreign policy, and a Marxist and Muslin sympathizer to boot. 

Exactly, precisely, the wrong person for the job.

[Yorkshire pud]

.  So we elect Barrack Obama, a typical dumb Lib when it comes to foreign policy, and a Marxist and Muslin sympathizer to boot. 

Exactly, precisely, the wrong person for the job.

A Marxist AND a Muslim sympathiser...interesting. The first in history to hold any office of note. That he's neither is quite interesting too. If he was, the Palestinians wouldn't have been pulverized the way they have by Israel.

[PB the Deplorable]

... It would piss off Turkey, who is NATO, but maybe we could talk to them back-channel...

Turkey was a strong NATO ally that anchored NATO's southern flank against the Soviets.  They were once Israel's most valuable friend in the region.

With their current leader Erdogan they are rapidly becoming an Islamic State with close ties to the various Jihadi terrorist groups.

They should be suspended from NATO pending a change in direction, and certainly no longer have access to our intel.

[PB the Deplorable]

A Marxist AND a Muslim sympathiser...interesting. The first in history to hold any office of note. That he's neither is quite interesting too. If he was, the Palestinians wouldn't have been pulverized the way they have by Israel.

Obama doesn't run the world

[VtaGeezer]

Turkey was a strong NATO ally that anchored NATO's southern flank against the Soviets.  They were once Israel's most valuable friend in the region.

With their current leader Erdogan they are rapidly becoming an Islamic State with close ties to the various Jihadi terrorist groups.

They should be suspended from NATO pending a change in direction, and certainly no longer have access to our intel.

Of course the perpetual rejection of Turkey by the EU for full membership is actually an expression of trust and endearment toward the Turks by the West.  A kick in the teeth always brings friends closer together.

[Yorkshire pud]

Of course the perpetual rejection of Turkey by the EU for full membership is actually an expression of trust and endearment toward the Turks by the West.  A kick in the teeth always brings friends closer together.

Not exactly; the bollox that was incorporating countries that couldn't sustain the rejigged strict requirements (so not that strict after all) and still resulted in economic collapse were it not for Germany, is the main reason Turkey hasn't been given membership. No way could they buy into the market and sustain anything resembling other than a falling piano off a cliff. They're being done a favour. Anyway, Germany has had Turks working there for decades, so it's not a transference of labour problem.

[albrecht]

Of course the perpetual rejection of Turkey by the EU for full membership is actually an expression of trust and endearment toward the Turks by the West.  A kick in the teeth always brings friends closer together.

EU is different than NATO, though I'm sure you knew that (hopefully.). Not all NATO members are EU and vice-versa. Whole different kettle of fish between the intention and scope of those organizations- though, of course, there is a relationship between them. And some EU countries are regretting membership or signing on to the Euro and others are regretting allowing some of the newer countries to join. So a mixed-bag. Considering what has happened to weaker, newer countries (in terms of unemployment, scandal, economy, politics, etc) after joining EU I think the Turkish people are probably thankful that they aren't a member.

[PB the Deplorable]

Of course the perpetual rejection of Turkey by the EU for full membership is actually an expression of trust and endearment toward the Turks by the West.  A kick in the teeth always brings friends closer together.

They definitely felt insulted, and there is a connection between that and their turn towards the East.

[VtaGeezer]

Not exactly; the bollox that was incorporating countries that couldn't sustain the rejigged strict requirements (so not that strict after all) and still resulted in economic collapse were it not for Germany, is the main reason Turkey hasn't been given membership. No way could they buy into the market and sustain anything resembling other than a falling piano off a cliff. They're being done a favour. Anyway, Germany has had Turks working there for decades, so it's not a transference of labour problem.

You must mean the same strict requirements adhered to by Italy, Greece, Portugal, Ireland, Spain, Malta among others in the EU.

[Yorkshire pud]

You must mean the same strict requirements adhered to by Italy, Greece, Portugal, Ireland, Spain, Malta among others in the EU.

You might think that, I couldn't possibly comment...


But yeah! 

[FightTheFuture]

Speaking of the EU, any word on ISIL or what must be done...? Anything?

*crickets*

[bateman]

aaaaand, boots on the ground.

http://www.cnn.com/2014/08/13/world/meast/iraq-crisis/index.html?hpt=hp_t1

[WildCard]

aaaaand, boots on the ground.

http://www.cnn.com/2014/08/13/world/meast/iraq-crisis/index.html?hpt=hp_t1

They've only been calling them the "Yazidis" for about a week. It used to be the "Kurds".
Whoever writes the news is trying to spin the narrative.
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Yazidism

[Yorkshire pud]

Probably not (for now). Recce team fron US SF are saying the numbers are not as high as initially reported.  Those there do of course need urgent help.

[HAL 9000]

They've only been calling them the "Yazidis" for about a week. It used to be the "Kurds". (sic) Whoever writes the news is trying to spin the narrative.
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Yazidism

I'll just chalk up your example to just perhaps lack of research - best I can tell, Yazidis are merely a subset of those known as "Kurds," and that in fact, the ethnicity of Yazidis is somewhat obscure due to the complexity of their origins and various interpretations by "scholars."

In its most simplistic form (granted not a great example - I'll blame it on the doxylamine succinate onboard), I would posit that it's perhaps more like Ohioans and Americans - not all Americans are Ohioans, but Ohioans are Americans. Similarly, the Kurds previously mentioned often in the press, are not necessarily Yazidis; Yazidis are a subset who also happen to reside in that region, have been singled out by ISIS (ISIL) for persecution, and the media is just being more accurate in their description of this subset of peoples.

[WildCard]

I'll just chalk up your example to just perhaps lack of research

Accuse me of research?! How dare yeewwwwwwww?!!!

- best I can tell, Yazidis are merely a subset of those known as "Kurds," and that in fact, the ethnicity of Yazidis is somewhat obscure due to the complexity of their origins and various interpretations by "scholars."

In its most simplistic form (granted not a great example - I'll blame it on the doxylamine succinate onboard), I would posit that it's perhaps more like Ohioans and Americans - not all Americans are Ohioans, but Ohioans are Americans. Similarly, the Kurd's previously mentioned often in the press, are not necessarily Yazidis; Yazidis are a subset who also happen to reside in that region, have been singled out by ISIS (ISIL) for persecution, and the media is just being more accurate in their description of this subset of peoples.

Point taken. But, the media hasn't used that word until the last week or so.

I knew who the Yazidis were, or thought I knew, when I was in my teens.
I didn't know that all, most or some Yazidis are Kurd's until a few years ago.
I know - lack of research.  :

p.437
PEACOCK ANGEL CULT
The Yezidis, reputed devil worshipers, of Iraq, are a secret
cult whose symbolism, the peacock and the black snake,
have baffled students for centuries. There is, however, no
need for this difficulty, given the knowledge that the group
was founded by a famous Sufi, and given that we know how
Sufic poetic analogy works. Like the Sufi Builders, travelers
or Coalmen, the Yezidis were originally a community of
Sufis, and their rituals are centered around the use of
standard and familiar Sufi symbolism.

Malak tauus, which stands for Peacock Angel, merely
means: MaLaK, homonym of MaLiK ("King," the tradi-
tional word for a Sufi); and TAUUS (Peacock), which
stands here for its homophone TAUUS (Verdant Land).
When it is noted that MaLaK (Angel) is used in Ghazali's
sense of "angels are the higher faculties in man," it can be
seen that the supposed idol of the Yezidis is merely an allegory
of two Sufi watchwords-the expansion of the
"land," the mind, through the higher faculties. Both of these
words are in Sufic usage outside of the Yezidis cult. The
Yezidis are divided into grades which use Sufi initiatory
titles such as pir (elder); Fakir (poor one); Baba(chief).

Lady Drower, who studied the Peacock people of Iraq at
dose range, says of the founder of the group, Sheikh Adi
Ibn Misfire (Son of the Traveler, a Sufi cognomen):
"Nothing that is known about him speaks of anything but
orthodoxy, but he was a Sufi, and the secret doctrines of
Sufism have always been suspected of pantheism, and the
Sufi sects of cherishing ancient faiths." (Peacock Angel,
London, 1941, p. 152)

In addition to the peacock emblem, the Yezidis use the
figure of a snake, which they blacken with soot. This black-
ening is symbolic of the word FEHM (charcoal, carbon).
The snake itself, far from being a symbol of evil or ancient
skin-sloughing-regeneration lore, as some would believe, is
chosen for the same reasons as the peacock. In Arabic,
p.438
snake is HaYYatt. This is a near rhyme for another word,
HaYYAt, life, which uses the same Arabic letters. The mean-
ing of the black snake is therefore: "Wisdom of Life."

As in the case of other Sufic organizations, the Yezidis
system has traveled far beyond its cultural context, and be-
come in places a mere mime. A thriving branch of the cult,
which does in fact appear to revere an "angelic peacock,"
is reported as existing in London in 1962. (A. Darau),
Secret Societies) *

It is this deterioration of symbolology which is reflected
in many strange associations in the West. The real develop-
mental intention has become subservient to the form, which,
in turn, is used to produce communal emotion, replacing
inner experience."

-The Sufis: Idries Shah

*"Idries Shah, writing under the pen-name Arkon Daraul, in the 1961 book Secret Societies Yesterday and Today, describes discovering a Yazidi-influenced secret society in the London suburbs called the "Order of the Peacock Angel."

[HAL 9000]

I knew who the Yazidis were, or thought I knew, when I was in my teens.
I didn't know that all, most or some Yazidis are Kurd's until a few years ago.
I know - lack of research.  :

That's a lot better than me - I never heard of them until they were mentioned in the MSM this week, and didn't know anything about them until 2 minutes before my post.

[Mind Flayer Monk]

So we are producing more oil and natural gas than ever, prices are higher than ever, Iraq is terrible, and there are sanctions on the Russian exports of gas.

[b_dubb]

Iraq will be worse than Vietnam. Give it a few years.

[jazmunda]

Iraq will be worse than Vietnam. Give it a few years.

If the Iraqi's can come up with a delicious dish like Pho then perhaps it can live on through the hipsters in 30 or 40 years time.

[Rudolf Zlabinger]

Kalif Abu Bakr al-Baghdadi claims for world leadership, he is after some of 100 years the first and only Kalif, and (see Wikipedia) the leader of worldwide ISLAM, what now is proved. Now he is using his influence for ordering murder in US for each ISIS combattant who dies by American bombs. Wherever Moslems live and are willing to execute orders from Abu Bakr al-Baghdadi, that now can happen around the world, terror actions and other crimes included.

It´s high time for the international community to stop this threat immediately. Its not Obamas task to do that alone, Pope says its UNO´s responsibility (they would be too late), I say, let a couple of 100 Chinese soldiers come to do this job, they know very well, how to do, better than ISIS can imagine.

[PB the Deplorable]

Turns out the US needs a leader in the White House, and the world doesn't do very well without US leadership.

Remember when it was pointed out that Obama had no relevant experience and no accomplishments?  The swooners said he was unflappable and just so smart, and that's all that was needed. 

[Rudolf Zlabinger]

Turns out the US needs a leader in the White House, and the world doesn't do very well without US leadership.

Remember when it was pointed out that Obama had no relevant experience and no accomplishments?  The swooners said he was unflappable and just so smart, and that's all that was needed. 

Oh, Obama is a brave man, he does not hesitate to do the necessary, as soon he see, that its time to do so, at home, in the White House also as outside of his country, when terror against your homelands threatens. I thank him again and again for his involvement. But does the rest of international community sleep? Or are they paralyzed by fear, when they see some men being crucified or beheaded?

But is he the only man of the whole world willingly to fight against what is to fight? And are you the only guys, they had to go in the battle fields for the world? Then good by, old Europe and you so called "civilized world" we only merely wait for the death a primitive Arabian from an ancient 500 years back leveled culture will give us.

Then our only chance is to learn from another 5000 year old culture, the Chinese, they continuously renewed their vitality anew and anew and today seems me the only people to give this crowd of murderers what they need, more cruelty, as they can imagine and sustain, they screaming will run for their lives, I am sure.

[Mind Flayer Monk]

What are you trying to do Rudolf? Riff on Tennyson?
Bring us something from the Weimar Republic.

Oh, Obama is a brave man, he does not hesitate to do the necessary, as soon he see, that its time to do so, at home, in the White House also as outside of his country, when terror against your homelands threatens. I thank him again and again for his involvement. But does the rest of international community sleep? Or are they paralyzed by fear, when they see some men being crucified or beheaded?

But is he the only man of the whole world willingly to fight against what is to fight? And are you the only guys, they had to go in the battle fields for the world? Then good by, old Europe and you so called "civilized world" we only merely wait for the death a primitive Arabian from an ancient 500 years back leveled culture will give us.

Then our only chance is to learn from another 5000 year old culture, the Chinese, they continuously renewed their vitality anew and anew and today seems me the only people to give this crowd of murderers what they need, more cruelty, as they can imagine and sustain, they screaming will run for their lives, I am sure.

[Rudolf Zlabinger]

What are you trying to do Rudolf? Riff on Tennyson?
Bring us something from the Weimar Republic.

I try to reissue the worlds most dangerous ocurrences hopening to hear from you young Americans some constructive contributions.

So far I understand your cryptic message: Nothing about the ugly present, Riff was already in 17.ct. a form element of music and Lord Tennyson a famous British poet, the Weimarer Republic the constitution of Germany before Hitler came.

If this issue does not interest you, keep out, if I did not understood you right, please clarify, if you do not want me see writing, set me on your ignore list. I hope I didn't harass you by my clear words.

Lets stay friends in every case 

[Mind Flayer Monk]

I try to reissue the worlds most dangerous ocurrences hopening to hear from you young Americans some constructive contributions.

So far I understand your cryptic message: Nothing about the ugly present, Riff was already in 17.ct. a form element of music and Lord Tennyson a famous British poet, the Weimarer Republic the constitution of Germany before Hitler came.

If this issue does not interest you, keep out, if I did not understood you right, please clarify, if you do not want me see writing, set me on your ignore list. I hope I didn't harass you by my clear words.

Lets stay friends in every case

Yes, your post in German is remarkably similar to this in rhyme
http://youtu.be/ZuqIGB1yqXs