ISIS

[albrecht]

Hmm maybe sepsis due to broken leg that didn't heal properly because the patient couldn't afford the treatment? Or complications due to chronic heart condition that was preventable if the patient had afforded the treatment? What about pneumonia due to treatable but unaffordable lung infection?

So your purported patient died of sepsis or pneumonia or his heart condition. Not death by not having health insurance. But not getting treatment for their problem. Anybody, even an illegal alien, can be treated at least here in the USA. Simply walk into the ER or call 911. One of the big problems in the system is patients not paying once they are treated and using the ER for common health problems as opposed to real emergencies (they try to get you at least on a payment plan but if you are an illegal good luck trying to collect on that debt.) I don't understand the focus on insurance. I understand that those companies are a big part of the economy and have political influence but the focus shouldn't be on insurance but on healthcare and living healthy lifestyles. In an ideal world we should take the insurance companies out of it since they help cause the inflationary costs of healthcare.

[Yorkshire pud]

So your purported patient died of sepsis or pneumonia or his heart condition. Not death by not having health insurance.

If you can't see the connection between affording health care (or having it paid for) and the outcome of a curable condition, I can't help you.

But not getting treatment for their problem. Anybody, even an illegal alien, can be treated at least here in the USA. Simply walk into the ER or call 911.

Only if it is an emergency. It doesn't cover elective surgery or treatment for conditions. You're not really au fait with how hospitals and the medical world works are you?

One of the big problems in the system is patients not paying once they are treated and using the ER for common health problems as opposed to real emergencies (they try to get you at least on a payment plan but if you are an illegal good luck trying to collect on that debt.) I don't understand the focus on insurance. I understand that those companies are a big part of the economy and have political influence but the focus shouldn't be on insurance but on healthcare and living healthy lifestyles. In an ideal world we should take the insurance companies out of it since they help cause the inflationary costs of healthcare.

Insurance companies have one goal; make profit. That's it. It's why you can't have a halfway house. You either have it all free at the point of need and pay fro it through taxes (or as we do national insurance and taxes) or you make sure everyone is paid a great deal more than they are and they settle the invoice when they get it. We have private health provision in the UK, and it's a similar thing to the US; you pay each month, but it isn't a pre-requisite to being treated in hospital, or physio, or pre/ante natal.

You either have to accept that if you can't afford it, you die sooner, or you all chip in and everyone gets a stab at longer life.. Healthy living not withstanding.

[onan]

Show me one death certificate where the official cause of death determined by a doctor or pathologist is listed as "no insurance." I challenge you to visit any County Clerk, Vital Records office, or Health Department and find one that says that. You are more likely to come up with a legitimate record of birth for Barry than to find a "no insurance" cause of death. People die from illness, accidents, disease, or by violence.

People that spout this kind of nonsense deserve the worst spot in hell.

You also made the idiotic argument that people can just go to an ER for treatment. You as well as QK are clueless about healthcare.

ERs are set up to treat acute life threatening situations. They do more than that because of ignorance regarding appropriate care settings.

Going to an ER for stabilization of a chronic illness costs ten times as much as a primary care facility. That extra cost is one of the back breaking reasons healthcare in this country is out of control. But thanks to idiots like ted cruz ERs are over crowded and patients that truly are in need of a quick treatment may be forestalled due to someone with uncontrolled hypertension because they couldn't be seen at a physician's office.

People lose healthcare insurance all the time. Ask many of the past employees of Mitt.

[albrecht]

People that spout this kind of nonsense deserve the worst spot in hell.

You also made the idiotic argument that people can just go to an ER for treatment. You as well as QK are clueless about healthcare.

ERs are set up to treat acute life threatening situations. They do more than that because of ignorance regarding appropriate care settings.

Going to an ER for stabilization of a chronic illness costs ten times as much as a primary care facility. That extra cost is one of the back breaking reasons healthcare in this country is out of control. But thanks to idiots like ted cruz ERs are over crowded and patients that truly are in need of a quick treatment may be forestalled due to someone with uncontrolled hypertension because they couldn't be seen at a physician's office.

People lose healthcare insurance all the time. Ask many of the past employees of Mitt.

I'm well of the problems of the healthcare and as I mentioned a big one is people, often illegal in my FEMA Region, using the ERs for primary care. And for not paying their bills. Better yet when they find an "abagado" and sue to hospital because the alcoholic, over-weight diabetic who refused all doctor advice to watch his diet, quit drinking, and stop smoking and too manage his insulin dies after getting his feet amputated on our dime. In some of our counties there are more "abagados" then medical facilities or workers, just looking for a nice vehicular or medical lawsuit. They put up their billboards and advertisments en Espanol, in case an illegal can read. But if not they usually have cool images of a pitbull and some guy in a padded collar flashing cash shaking hands with an "abagado", so they get the idea even if they are illiterate.

I don't know why you are so vindictive and always resort to personal attacks like "go to hell" etc. I am even friends with people who vigorously supported Obama. They are wrong but that doesn't mean I'm not polite or even are friends with them. You leftist lot are like the Taliban. You don't believe in Obama as some godhead and it is insult and hatred. Maybe even violence. A little scary the amount of emotional attachment and investment in ideas like Obamacare or in Obama himself.

Re: insurance. The system we have here is screwy. I actually support some kind of single-payer system, but maybe bring it in on a State level. And we would need to sort out the free-loaders and return the millions of illegals who would break the system. Get insurance out of it altogether by also initiating real tort reform. And have some system of over-sight (maybe a "bounty" for informers) to root out fraud. We also need to have some social-cohesion and have social pressure (shame) on not abusing the system, getting into shape, reporting fraud, healthy activities, etc. Also no more advertising prescription drugs.

Job searches and employment should be about getting salary, improving your career, etc and less about being insured. Likewise having companies and corporations pay, and deal with the paperwork, of healthcare is a burden on our companies and makes us less competitive versus foreign corporations.

[onan]

I'm well of the problems of the healthcare and as I mentioned a big one is people, often illegal in my FEMA Region, using the ERs for primary care. And for not paying their bills. Better yet when they find an "abagado" and sue to hospital because the alcoholic, over-weight diabetic who refused all doctor advice to watch his diet, quit drinking, and stop smoking and too manage his insulin dies after getting his feet amputated on our dime. In some of our counties there are more "abagados" then medical facilities or workers, just looking for a nice vehicular or medical lawsuit. They put up their billboards and advertisments en Espanol, in case an illegal can read. But if not they usually have cool images of a pitbull and some guy in a padded collar flashing cash shaking hands with an "abagado", so they get the idea even if they are illiterate.

I don't know why you are so vindictive and always resort to personal attacks like "go to hell" etc. I am even friends with people who vigorously supported Obama. They are wrong but that doesn't mean I'm not polite or even are friends with them. You leftist lot are like the Taliban. You don't believe in Obama as some godhead and it is insult and hatred. Maybe even violence. A little scary the amount of emotional attachment and investment in ideas like Obamacare or in Obama himself.

Re: insurance. The system we have here is screwy. I actually support some kind of single-payer system, but maybe bring it in on a State level. And we would need to sort out the free-loaders and return the millions of illegals who would break the system. Get insurance out of it altogether by also initiating real tort reform. And have some system of over-sight (maybe a "bounty" for informers) to root out fraud. We also need to have some social-cohesion and have social pressure (shame) on not abusing the system, getting into shape, reporting fraud, healthy activities, etc. Also no more advertising prescription drugs.

Job searches and employment should be about getting salary, improving your career, etc and less about being insured. Likewise having companies and corporations pay, and deal with the paperwork, of healthcare is a burden on our companies and makes us less competitive versus foreign corporations.

I get this way because I don't suffer fools well.


A few posts ago you suggested no one is without healcare, "just go to an ER" was your argument. Now your first sentences references the inappropriate use of ERs.

Your abadago story doesn't hold up. I work with three major hospitals in NC, I hear of lawsuits but not very often. I can tell you that no patient with the conditions you state would ever make a case for malpractice. And leaving against medical advice couldn't make it easier for the defense. You are making a straw man argument and a dishonest one. Perhaps you believe this is reality, it isn't.

Not everyone without insurance is a scoundrel. More often than not, they are pretty much the same as you and me.

You have glommed several issues into one and then decided that healthcare insurance is the bad guy. Fraud happens at all levels, and much of it is healthcare management defrauding insurance companies. Illegals, yeah lets screw over everyone because illegals got into the mix.

Look I hate insurance companies. I am not all that fond of Medicaid. But I am adamant about healthcare for everyone. And I would rather someone get a free doctor's visit than suffer. Even if they are lazy.

[Quick Karl]

So no argument from you, just irrational banter.

The system you love, is broken. And it is going away.

And thanks to fools like you, a new more-broken system is about to wreck healthcare completely - but then it will be fair; we'll all be in the same boat as the people in Nigerian bush.

[Bart Ell]

but then it will be fair; we'll all be in the same boat as the people in Nigerian bush.

There's your first problem - getting into boats in a bush.

[onan]

And thanks to fools like you, a new more-broken system is about to wreck healthcare completely - but then it will be fair; we'll all be in the same boat as the people in Nigerian bush.

Well no worries for you, You can set your own broken bones.

[albrecht]

I get this way because I don't suffer fools well.


A few posts ago you suggested no one is without healcare, "just go to an ER" was your argument. Now your first sentences references the inappropriate use of ERs.

Your abadago story doesn't hold up. I work with three major hospitals in NC, I hear of lawsuits but not very often. I can tell you that no patient with the conditions you state would ever make a case for malpractice. And leaving against medical advice couldn't make it easier for the defense. You are making a straw man argument and a dishonest one. Perhaps you believe this is reality, it isn't.

Not everyone without insurance is a scoundrel. More often than not, they are pretty much the same as you and me.

You have glommed several issues into one and then decided that healthcare insurance is the bad guy. Fraud happens at all levels, and much of it is healthcare management defrauding insurance companies. Illegals, yeah lets screw over everyone because illegals got into the mix.

Look I hate insurance companies. I am not all that fond of Medicaid. But I am adamant about healthcare for everyone. And I would rather someone get a free doctor's visit than suffer. Even if they are lazy.

As I clearly mentioned everyone can get treatment, even an illegal or a deadbeat, at the ER. And, as I mentioned, it is a major problem with our healthcare system that the ER is used as a primary care (or just when some illegal's child has a cold.) Two separate issues. First, everyone in the US (by Court order and legislation) is treated. Secondly, it is a problem because it is inefficient and costly. But also you can come to my FEMA Region and go to a dialysis clinic or chemo clinic as simply ask how many are insured (if you speak Spanish.) So services are also rendered that aren't in the ER to uninsured people. You claim about "abagados" is wrong. I challenge you to go to South Texas and tell me. More doctors in the phone books or lawyers. And if the ads for the lawyers are in Spanish mostly. Looking for the big pay off in a vehicular or medical case. One phenomena is that although we passed some tort reform the issue is still there. At least in the mind. New Yorker had a good article on it a while back. Unnecessary services, tests, and follow-ups are done (which drain medicare etc since many of the people are on it or uninsured.) Defensive medicine and also possible fraud. I think often times honest attempts to avoid possible liability but I'm sure there is also fraud there.
http://www.newyorker.com/magazine/2009/06/01/the-cost-conundrum


Fraud in Medicaid is rampant and increasing the coverage or going to a single-payer system will increase it unless we develop some social cohesion to be against it and a way to audit it properly. Anything "free" is taken advantage of. A funny exchange I just had a while back. An older relative was saying how she could get a new procedure done for planar fasciitis for "free", my cousin a surgeon muttered "free for you", and another relative a cardio-thoraesthic surgeon said "don't do it", never go to a hospital or a surgery unless it is really necessary simply because of the risk of infection and possible side-effects. Deal with it by losing weight, stretching, etc (though those are questionable efficacy it won't harm you) but unless you really need it avoid hospitals for elective procedures.

Having said all that I don't like the system where healthcare has become a motivation to work or to keep a certain job etc instead of being able to maybe getting a better job or start your own business. Or that our companies are burdened by the costs of providing it and the record keeping costs. So I actually like a single-payer system in theory. Having lived and worked in the "dream" systems in Holland, Germany, and the UK not having to deal with the HR stuff related to healthcare was nice. And coverage was, in general, good. Though it was expensive (if you make $$ you buy private insurance in Holland for example, if you are not then you are subsidized by those who do via the government.) And wait times could get bad for basic things, like dental or getting a Primary Care doctor as the government allocated number of doctors and what practice based on census and "need" but didn't keep up with population shifts. And non-necessary things, like vaccines you just pay out of pocket. Schipol even has a place you can go and pay and get your Hep-C or yellow-fever shot.)

[SciFiAuthor]

It does come down to lack of access. There doesn't need to be any nuance to that. You are wrong however with medicaid and your so called numerous programs. I just spent close to 16 hours over the course of 2 weeks getting one injection approved for one patient. Preventative care is the best "for the money" buck that can be spent on healthcare. And if you want treatment and do not have insurance there is often not a way. In mental health alone a good 20 percent of those seeking treatment with the agency I work for are declined. In this instance we are the last option.

Alright, so what was the hang-up for getting that injection? I understand there's a problem, I just want to know where the problem is. Remember, we were once told in 1965 that this new Medicaid program was going to work. It ended up lacking, apparently. Then we were told that the affordable care act's expansion of Medicaid was going to work. It appears that it still doesn't work and is still lacking. I'd like to know why and you're much closer to the machinery than I am.

People without insurance are much less likely to seek treatment for chronic conditions, including diabetes and hypertension; don't get me started on lack of prenatal care. Not only are they less likely to see a physician but they are much less likely to get medicines to manage their illnesses.

Sure, but there's much more to this than just insurance. Likewise, I don't think you'll have much luck convincing the people in the trailer parks and the hood that they should go to the doctor. You'll get some, sure, but there's other factors at work. You can't just walk up to a gang banger and try to take his blood pressure, it just doesn't work. Plus, at the lowest rung there are a lot of people that simply don't care or think about their health. That could be depression, it could be lack of education, it could be many things. 

Your last two sentences should give you pause. I do think you are a pretty bright guy and if you don't see a correlation... well

I think it's going to be the biggest failure of Obamacare actually. I think it's wishful thinking to expect homeless drunken hobos, couch potatoes on welfare, meth heads etc. to visit the doctor. As such, while enrollment could eventually be almost universal, usage is going to be an issue. There really are people in this world that don't give a shit about their health, and the lower you go down the scale, the worse that gets.

[Quick Karl]

There's your first problem - getting into boats in a bush.

[Quick Karl]

QK you remind me of the asshole I used to work with who used to walk around with his chest puffed up all day, acting like a badass but later got arrested for having an all male orgy in the park at night

b_dumb - you're saying I remind you of your father? 

[b_dubb]

b_dumb - you're saying I remind you of your father? 

you're all class

[onan]

Alright, so what was the hang-up for getting that injection? I understand there's a problem, I just want to know where the problem is. Remember, we were once told in 1965 that this new Medicaid program was going to work. It ended up lacking, apparently. Then we were told that the affordable care act's expansion of Medicaid was going to work. It appears that it still doesn't work and is still lacking. I'd like to know why and you're much closer to the machinery than I am.

Sure, but there's much more to this than just insurance. Likewise, I don't think you'll have much luck convincing the people in the trailer parks and the hood that they should go to the doctor. You'll get some, sure, but there's other factors at work. You can't just walk up to a gang banger and try to take his blood pressure, it just doesn't work. Plus, at the lowest rung there are a lot of people that simply don't care or think about their health. That could be depression, it could be lack of education, it could be many things. 

I think it's going to be the biggest failure of Obamacare actually. I think it's wishful thinking to expect homeless drunken hobos, couch potatoes on welfare, meth heads etc. to visit the doctor. As such, while enrollment could eventually be almost universal, usage is going to be an issue. There really are people in this world that don't give a shit about their health, and the lower you go down the scale, the worse that gets.

Your first question. the hangup: 1.bureaucracy mostly, 2.had to explain the diagnosis twice, 3.voice mail and telephone tag, 4.doesn't qualify for medicaid... so had to use a different program, 5. the patient makes just at eleven hundred dollars a month... had to prove that, the injection costs over 900 dollars, 6.what other medications has he been prescribed, and there was more.

Your second point is purely conjecture on your part. Not everyone without insurance is living in a trailer park listening to alex jones. What Medicaid is as opposed to what it is now is another discussion. I work in the "hood" 5 days a week, there are more people wanting a better life than your paranoia allows. And the lower rung... sure, if that helps you sleep. You are basically saying people with poor life experiences and poor coping skills should just give up.

Obamacare being a big failure... well I am sure you would be thrilled for that. As long as you get to be right.

[Quick Karl]

My brother-in-law got a by-pass from a CATHOLIC CHARITY, 100% free, and he's an Irish Drunk (my sister has poor standards).

He's actually a good guy, and he is very good to my sister, but a few things happened much as has happened to a few million other folks in this country since the economic unbounded success of the Oblunder administration, and he had a heart attack and went to the ER sans insurance - PRE OBAMAFUCKTHECOUNTRYCARE - and THE HOSPITAL directed him where to call to have his bypass paid for.

Sure he had to wait a few weeks for the paper work to be processed, but no one kicked him out into the street and urinated on him while smoking a Havana, while he died.

The argument the lunatics on the left want to put forth is that every scumbag fuck in the country should receive free country-club healthcare, on demand, because some rich republican that they hate, has access to fantastic health care. The hole in the moronic theme is that their own political leaders get the same country club health care that turns them Kelly-green with envy and hate, and if their plan materializes, NO ONE BUT THE SUPER-SUPER RICH will have good health care, and the neighbors they hate will have shit health care that they cant afford.

This is what will make loons like Onan happy.

[albrecht]

My brother-in-law got a by-pass from a CATHOLIC CHARITY, 100% free, and he's an Irish Drunk (my sister has poor standards).

He's actually a good guy, and he is very good to my sister, but a few things happened much as has happened to a few million other folks in this country since the economic unbounded success of the Oblunder administration, and he had a heart attack and went to the ER sans insurance - PRE OBAMAFUCKTHECOUNTRYCARE - and THE HOSPITAL directed him where to call to have his bypass paid for.

Sure he had to wait a few weeks for the paper work to be processed, but no one kicked him out into the street and urinated on him while smoking a Havana, while he died.

The argument the lunatics on the left want to put forth is that every scumbag fuck in the country should receive free country-club healthcare, on demand, because some rich republican that they hate, has access to fantastic health care. The hole in the moronic theme is that their own political leaders get the same country club health care that turns them Kelly-green with envy and hate, and if their plan materializes, NO ONE BUT THE SUPER-SUPER RICH will have good health care, and the neighbors they hate will have shit health care that they cant afford.

This is what will make loons like Onan happy.

Just to show my non-partisanship (though in my day partisan used to be a good word and even stories and books were made about them in various wars) I would've been against those Papists immigrants, who brought their political fights (Fenians, IRA, etc) , disease (Typhoid Mary), deviancy (homosexual stuff "in the rectory" by priests), Mafias, and political corruption. I won't mention drunkenness.  But at least they, for the most part, assimilated (thought there are still elements) and became decent citizens but still have an wrong idea that all the new illegals and immigrants will do the same. And also due to the Kennedy power that helped cause the immigration crisis due to his support for the new immigration rules doing away with rationality in the 1965. (ps: forgive my Papist comment but I will let it lie, as I posted it, and because other than the Jews, who get constant criticism and even out right warfare, how someone can claim a political state and a religious state and combine those for good or ill, often for good, is beyond me. It is strange and also try to influence our policies and politics. Could one imagine if someone tried a WASP party? Even though they created our country and more wealth and technology than anyone else? Well, maybe Teddy R would approve. The original progressive...?)

[SciFiAuthor]

Your first question. the hangup: 1.bureaucracy mostly, 2.had to explain the diagnosis twice, 3.voice mail and telephone tag, 4.doesn't qualify for medicaid... so had to use a different program, 5. the patient makes just at eleven hundred dollars a month... had to prove that, the injection costs over 900 dollars, 6.what other medications has he been prescribed, and there was more.

Look, I want Medicaid to work. I've said a thousand times that we have a section of the population that legitimately needs help, especially in mental health. But you're telling me that it isn't happening because of bureaucracy, so you're advocating more bureaucracy. How does that make sense? We've got schizophrenics wandering around as bums and hobos with no effective way to treat them because of the law, right? But shouldn't we look at them realistically? Bureaucracy is a reality of government. Shouldn't that be accounted for?

Your second point is purely conjecture on your part. Not everyone without insurance is living in a trailer park listening to alex jones. What Medicaid is as opposed to what it is now is another discussion. I work in the "hood" 5 days a week, there are more people wanting a better life than your paranoia allows. And the lower rung... sure, if that helps you sleep. You are basically saying people with poor life experiences and poor coping skills should just give up.

If you're not living in a trailer park or the hood without insurance, you're under 30 and in college and invincible. We should be talking about the realities of the trailer park and the hood and going by that benchmark. Instead, we act like it's suburban white reality and foist it on them through assumption. I'm telling you, a huge percentage of the lower end doesn't give a flying fuck about healthy living or they'd be using the EBT card to buy the cheapest food in the store: salads and veggies. Reality check: they're buying chips and grape soda. Why do you guys not understand that?

Obamacare being a big failure... well I am sure you would be thrilled for that. As long as you get to be right.

You should be thrilled too. Obamacare was designed to fail and open the way for more debate and ultimately a single-payer system. It's a fucking game. If you support playing games with society, then please have an orgasm at the snap of Harry Reid's finger. If you support creating truly sustainable systems and solutions to problems, well, stop buying the bullshit hook, line and sinker.

[Yorkshire pud]

This is what will make loons like Onan happy.

If Onan is a loon, I hate to think what the diagnosis on you is. Should you even be allowed to live and have access to the internet??

One day sonny you'll need help and you won't be able to help yourself, and no-one else will help you as they drop their eyes in pity and mutter 'Dead beat asshole liberal'...and shuffle on by. But it's okay, because your prophecy will have been fulfilled.

[onan]

Look, I want Medicaid to work. I've said a thousand times that we have a section of the population that legitimately needs help, especially in mental health. But you're telling me that it isn't happening because of bureaucracy, so you're advocating more bureaucracy. How does that make sense? We've got schizophrenics wandering around as bums and hobos with no effective way to treat them because of the law, right? But shouldn't we look at them realistically? Bureaucracy is a reality of government. Shouldn't that be accounted for?


If you're not living in a trailer park or the hood without insurance, you're under 30 and in college and invincible. We should be talking about the realities of the trailer park and the hood and going by that benchmark. Instead, we act like it's suburban white reality and foist it on them through assumption. I'm telling you, a huge percentage of the lower end doesn't give a flying fuck about healthy living or they'd be using the EBT card to buy the cheapest food in the store: salads and veggies. Reality check: they're buying chips and grape soda. Why do you guys not understand that?

You should be thrilled too. Obamacare was designed to fail and open the way for more debate and ultimately a single-payer system. It's a fucking game. If you support playing games with society, then please have an orgasm at the snap of Harry Reid's finger. If you support creating truly sustainable systems and solutions to problems, well, stop buying the bullshit hook, line and sinker.

You guys have moved me to the point that I want it all to succeed only to see you all pop a gasket.

[Quick Karl]

You should be thrilled too. Obamacare was designed to fail and open the way for more debate and ultimately a single-payer system. It's a fucking game. If you support playing games with society, then please have an orgasm at the snap of Harry Reid's finger. If you support creating truly sustainable systems and solutions to problems, well, stop buying the bullshit hook, line and sinker.

Thank you!

[Quick Karl]

You guys have moved me to the point that I want it all to succeed only to see you all pop a gasket.

That has been your motivation from the inception of the idea.

[PB the Deplorable]

... I work in the "hood" 5 days a week, there are more people wanting a better life than your paranoia allows. And the lower rung... sure, if that helps you sleep. You are basically saying people with poor life experiences and poor coping skills should just give up...

You've mentioned these people wanting a better life before.  And I'm sure they do.

But are any of them doing anything towards having one?  That's the real test, not just talking about it.

Are they going back to get their GED's in order to give themselves more options?  Are they taking classes in Community College to pick up some job skills, or even a degree?  Are they taking advantage of the various federal state and local job training programs?

Do they bounce around getting fired from minimum wage job to minimum wage job, or do they come early, stay late, work hard, and do the things that make people promotable?  Or pick up additional skills at work so they would be more attractive to another employer?

Do they spend their money on tattoos and junk and entertainment, or save some of it?  Are they eating what's good for them or are they living on fries and cokes, chips and cake?  Do they drink to excess and do too many drugs?

Are they doing anything to better their life, or are they just bitching and wishing and looking for the next handout?


The successful people in life have mostly made the right basic decisions, and the 'poor' mostly haven't.  It is not difficult to succeed in this country.  Boat people have done it, as have most immigrants who came here not even speaking the language.

[DigitalPigSnuggler]

But are any of them doing anything towards having one? 

This has been a paid political announcement from the Republicans -- The Party of Fuck Y'all®

[b_dubb]

You've mentioned these people wanting a better life before.  And I'm sure they do.

But are any of them doing anything towards having one?  That's the real test, not just talking about it.

The bulk of our military is made up of poor whites and minorities. So to answer your question ... yes.

[onan]

You've mentioned these people wanting a better life before.  And I'm sure they do.

But are any of them doing anything towards having one?  That's the real test, not just talking about it.

Are they going back to get their GED's in order to give themselves more options?  Are they taking classes in Community College to pick up some job skills, or even a degree?  Are they taking advantage of the various federal state and local job training programs?

Do they bounce around getting fired from minimum wage job to minimum wage job, or do they come early, stay late, work hard, and do the things that make people promotable?  Or pick up additional skills at work so they would be more attractive to another employer?

Do they spend their money on tattoos and junk and entertainment, or save some of it?  Are they eating what's good for them or are they living on fries and cokes, chips and cake?  Do they drink to excess and do too many drugs?

Are they doing anything to better their life, or are they just bitching and wishing and looking for the next handout?

As far as tattoos, no not a lot. Junk food, yep, you bet. it is one of the few "rewards" they can afford. But again it is complicated. Most of the mentally ill live somwhere between half to three quarters as long as those without mental illness. First, many with schizophrenia smoke cigarettes. They do this because it not only helps with calming but nicotine also helps to habtuate startling stimuli that you and I get accustomed to quickly. They also are prescribed antispychotic medications. The side effects from those medications bring on weight gain, often as much as 50 pounds or more. Which exacerbates diabetes, which in turn shortens lives.


The successful people in life have mostly made the right basic decisions, and the 'poor' mostly haven't.  It is not difficult to succeed in this country.  Boat people have done it, as have most immigrants who came here not even speaking the language.

The quick answer is yes. But it often gets complicated. If you have someone in your family that has a significant mental illness, the gains and successes are often marred by setbacks with behaviors.

I won't kid you, there are some that are willing to accept ssi and give up attempting for more, remaining stuck in their own shit. It really is frustrating. I have one client that truly is antisocial, but he isn't malevolent. He continually gets arrested and spends several weeks to months in jail. By every measure our team uses, he is more functional and happy in jail.

But yeah, people that are able to understand budgeting and are goal oriented, they are moving towards more stable lives. Not nearly as quick as I wish, however.

This may give you some hope, a good number of people I serve are conservative in their thought and have similar positions to your way of thinking. Sadly, all the while collecting disability. It does make me go huh?

Although for most of my clients, they will never be able to move up, so to speak. I have a client I see every Monday, he is schizophrenic and completely disorganized. He asks me quite often to help him get into a GED program at a local community college. He makes all the appointments, signs up for classes and then becomes owverwhelmed and quits. I know it sounds like he just needs to be more disciplined, but if you knew him you wouldn't think for a moment he was malingering.

I do have a few that manage to get jobs, but the stigma of mental illness held by onlookers and poor coping skills by some of the mentally ill leads to failure.


odd, I wrote much more but it didn't post

[onan]

Your question of tattoos, some have them but not that many. For several of my clients while they were growing up, they were normal in every way. They had jobs, they were paying their way.

But once a psychotic condition sets in, things change quickly. Yes there is lots of junk food. It is one of the few "rewards" they can afford. Healthy choices that seem easy for us, aren't quite so easy for them. Cigarette smoking for most of us, it is common sense to avoid it. But with psychosis, nicotine helps in a couple ways. First just like for most smokers there is a calming effect. But there is also an effect of habituation. When you are startled by a loud nose, you react. If however that same noise happens again you and I will get used to it. People with psychosis, that isn't always true and cigarettes help to stem that constant startled state.

sorry to be so long winded.

[DigitalPigSnuggler]

This may give you some hope, a good number of people I serve are conservative in their thought and have similar positions to your way of thinking. Sadly, all the while collecting disability.

That, right there, is the story of Falkie's life.

[albrecht]

Cigarette smoking for most of us, it is common sense to avoid it. But with psychosis, nicotine helps in a couple ways. First just like for most smokers there is a calming effect. But there is also an effect of habituation. When you are startled by a loud nose, you react. If however that same noise happens again you and I will get used to it. People with psychosis, that isn't always true and cigarettes help to stem that constant startled state.

sorry to be so long winded.

I've heard this mentioned before, especially with schizophrenia, but I wonder if there are real studies to support it and if they could get the same calming effect in a safer way (and cheaper) like with the gum, patch, a pill, or even snuff. I wonder if it is the nicotine itself or the habit/comfort of lighting a cigarette (or a combination of both.) Certainly there are just acts that comfort people besides the substance (making coffee or tea almost by rote when a guest visits etc.) I wonder if nicotine has this effect if it has been studied because maybe it might also help show what is "going on" in the brain of schizophrenic (nicotine acting on a certain receptor or something.)

[onan]

I've heard this mentioned before, especially with schizophrenia, but I wonder if there are real studies to support it and if they could get the same calming effect in a safer way (and cheaper) like with the gum, patch, a pill, or even snuff. I wonder if it is the nicotine itself or the habit/comfort of lighting a cigarette (or a combination of both.) Certainly there are just acts that comfort people besides the substance (making coffee or tea almost by rote when a guest visits etc.) I wonder if nicotine has this effect if it has been studied because maybe it might also help show what is "going on" in the brain of schizophrenic (nicotine acting on a certain receptor or something.)

It has been studied. Nicotine does have an effect.

You can read about it here:

http://schizophreniabulletin.oxfordjournals.org/content/22/3/431.full.pdf

[albrecht]

It has been studied. Nicotine does have an effect.

You can read about it here:

http://schizophreniabulletin.oxfordjournals.org/content/22/3/431.full.pdf

Interesting article. Thanks. It sounds awful, like a bad trip or something. Being always vigilant and hearing/seeing everything that "normal" people can put in the background. Jeez. Smoke em if you got em if it helps them at all I say. Though it would appear that it is the nicotine, not the delivery system, that shows the effect so the gum, patch, or chewing tobacco might be safer or cheaper.