Steve Warner's Dark City

[lonevoice]

That was some good listening, bateman.  Dr. Liebert needed a bit of corralling here and there, which you managed to do almost imperceptibly.   In other less capable hands, I think Dr. Liebert would have talked almost exclusively about Pelican Bay and its culture of rival Mexican gangs.  That's clearly a passion for him, but it would have been a much less interesting interview had he not been guided to speak about his breadth of experience in forensic psychiatry. 

His humility in so candidly disclosing that he doesn't think he would have "broken" Wayne Williams or Ted Bundy, but he does think he would have "broken" Gary Ridgway was refreshing.  I also liked the way he was almost dismissive of Manson's skull full of crazy soup, not classifying him the same way he does someone like Bundy.   If you ever have him as a guest again, I'd vote for hearing a lot more from Dr. Liebert about the differences between sociopaths, psychopaths, and psychotics. 

[bateman]

Turns out this was a Knapp show, so I don't mind recommending it after all.

http://www.coasttocoastam.com/show/2008/08/17

Might be time to revisit it - that's from 2008.

[bateman]

That was some good listening, bateman.  Dr. Liebert needed a bit of corralling here and there, which you managed to do almost imperceptibly.   In other less capable hands, I think Dr. Liebert would have talked almost exclusively about Pelican Bay and its culture of rival Mexican gangs.  That's clearly a passion for him, but it would have been a much less interesting interview had he not been guided to speak about his breadth of experience in forensic psychiatry. 

His humility in so candidly disclosing that he doesn't think he would have "broken" Wayne Williams or Ted Bundy, but he does think he would have "broken" Gary Ridgway was refreshing.  I also liked the way he was almost dismissive of Manson's skull full of crazy soup, not classifying him the same way he does someone like Bundy.   If you ever have him as a guest again, I'd vote for hearing a lot more from Dr. Liebert about the differences between sociopaths, psychopaths, and psychotics. 

Yeah, I'm definitely interested in exploring that. I'd be happy to have him on again.

And thanks for your kind words, always appreciated.

[Tarbaby]

Great "get", Steve. Riveting.

[bateman]

Great "get", Steve. Riveting.

Thanks!

[popple]

New show tonight? 

[albrecht]

Might be time to revisit it - that's from 2008.

Yes, revisit the topic (unless it has been throughly debunked as a scam or fraud.)

I enjoyed the last show. Actually the prison gang culture is, in itself, an interesting topic especially as there seems to be more consolidation (and sometimes odd "relationships" or "treaties") now between prison gangs, street gangs, biker gangs, and now various cartels.

Re: the difference between the various "terms" for crazy people was interesting to hear and still is not really sorted in my mind (and apparently in official psychiatric circles in the major manuals used, in theory, to diagnose people don't use the terms "sociopath," "psychopath," etc- but a catch-all "ASPD" or "dissocial personality disorder," depending on DSM or WHO.) And when you look at the definitions could include a gamut from rebellious teenager, a punk rocker, to a cannibalistic serial killer! Of course this is the main problem with psychiatry, and worse psychology, is that it can seem almost unscientific with constantly changing definitions, terms, and theories.

[b_dubb]

I've enjoyed the recent podcasts bateman. Excellent stuff. I liked Juan's suggestion about the biker gang show.

[bateman]

New show tonight? 

Yep, editing as we speak.

Yes, revisit the topic (unless it has been throughly debunked as a scam or fraud.)

I enjoyed the last show. Actually the prison gang culture is, in itself, an interesting topic especially as there seems to be more consolidation (and sometimes odd "relationships" or "treaties") now between prison gangs, street gangs, biker gangs, and now various cartels.

Re: the difference between the various "terms" for crazy people was interesting to hear and still is not really sorted in my mind (and apparently in official psychiatric circles in the major manuals used, in theory, to diagnose people don't use the terms "sociopath," "psychopath," etc- but a catch-all "ASPD" or "dissocial personality disorder," depending on DSM or WHO.) And when you look at the definitions could include a gamut from rebellious teenager, a punk rocker, to a cannibalistic serial killer! Of course this is the main problem with psychiatry, and worse psychology, is that it can seem almost unscientific with constantly changing definitions, terms, and theories.

"Oppositional Defiant Disorder" is another one I recently heard of. Glad you enjoyed the show.

I've enjoyed the recent podcasts bateman. Excellent stuff. I liked Juan's suggestion about the biker gang show.

Cool, I'll see what I can come up with.

[albrecht]

Yep, editing as we speak.

"Oppositional Defiant Disorder" is another one I recently heard of. Glad you enjoyed the show.

Cool, I'll see what I can come up with.

Oh yeah, that new "condition" is a very troubling one, especially when applied to adolescences. It is also interesting/troubling how the various "spectrums" of autism keep constantly changing.

[onan]

Yes, revisit the topic (unless it has been throughly debunked as a scam or fraud.)
Of course this is the main problem with psychiatry, and worse psychology, is that it can seem almost unscientific with constantly changing definitions, terms, and theories.

In actuality, the definitions are meant for clinicians, not the average person walking down the street. Without a good deal of experience many of the diagnoses can seem complex and perhaps "troubling".

Look, you're a bright guy. But that doesn't mean you have any full comprehension of psychiatric practice. And it almost smacks of arrogance to believe you do understand. Tell me what part of oppositional defiant disorder is problematic for you? Those are three pretty straight forward terms. Would you rather the classification be spoiled brat with anger issues? Autism spectrum has been around for a long time. What changed was the terms Asperger and Pervasive Developmental Disorder-Not Otherwise Specified or PPD-NOS have been removed. Also the screening tools for Autism have been improved and have had beneficial results in helping families deal more effectively with the illness.

[albrecht]

In actuality, the definitions are meant for clinicians, not the average person walking down the street. Without a good deal of experience many of the diagnoses can seem complex and perhaps "troubling".

Look, you're a bright guy. But that doesn't mean you have any full comprehension of psychiatric practice. And it almost smacks of arrogance to believe you do understand. Tell me what part of oppositional defiant disorder is problematic for you? Those are three pretty straight forward terms. Would you rather the classification be spoiled brat with anger issues? Autism spectrum has been around for a long time. What changed was the terms Asperger and Pervasive Developmental Disorder-Not Otherwise Specified or PPD-NOS have been removed. Also the screening tools for Autism have been improved and have had beneficial results in helping families deal more effectively with the illness.

Thanks . I appreciate what you do and don't mean to presume I know everything or even a lot about it. I clearly don't! I am not an anti-drug, anti-psychotherapy, anti-psychiatry, or anti-"self-help" guy. When needed, in moderation, when proven necessary, with consent, when tested, with court orders, etc.

Admittedly, and not knocking it or denying it, I am not an expert (but apparently neither are the "experts" even) but I only mention some of the "troubling" aspects and why, after decades there isn't a 'consensus' (interestingly everyone now seems to claim that a 'consensus' solves other science questions, like the global warming one.)

I also recall the days of forced commitment for that troubling wife of a politician, randy teen daughter, or that incorrigible kid that smoked a joint.) Chestnut Lodge was a nice one. Or, more recently, when things that are now celebrated, if not held as as the most virtuous thing imaginable, like homosexuality, gender switching, fetishes, etc were deemed "mental health problems" of various types (depending on particular volume, association, school of thought, or theory.) And, alas, also the ramifications of the "mental health" reform, anti-psychiatry "civil rights" movement, and various Court decisions (and mainly states trying to save money so prisons or homeless shelters and the public deal more and more of the problems which helps neither the people or society.)

My only comment was that the stuff seems to lack, in some cases, a scientifically proven methodology or even theory, apparently, as proven by contrary papers, published articles, revised methods, differing definitions, expanded (and contracted) diseases, in the various DSMs vs ICD differ, placebo studies vs drugs effects (also changing over time,) "off label" use of approved drugs, faked studies to get drugs approved (and then "black boxes"), and charlatans who tell people who might need them to not take drugs or therapy, the cults involved with some "help," and lawsuit abuses, etc. A mess. I understand that science (or any legitimate discipline to some extent) changes, improves, evolves, etc with new information, testing, and so forth. But it would seem to be advantageous to clearly define terms across the board, set observable/testable guidelines, and go from there.

ps: I look forward to "sluggish schizophrenia" be added to our book also as it was done, if one dissents or is not "properly" socialized (double entendre on purpose.) Kidding, sort of.

[bateman]

Just some updates on show topics... One of the prison escapees has been shot and killed by law enforcement, and the other one may be surrounded: http://www.cnn.com/2015/06/26/us/new-york-prison-break/

And a serial killer may be on the loose in Ohio: http://www.chicagotribune.com/news/nationworld/ct-ohio-serial-killer-20150624-story.html#page=1

[Juan]

Get in a psychic or channeler and do an interview with the dead one.

[bateman]

Get in a psychic or channeler and do an interview with the dead one.

Ugh, I've had a "psychic" hounding me to be on for the last month or so. The last show I did with one was the least downloaded show ever.

[chefist]

Love the show, man! Been listening to the Bill Birnes episodes...really good!

[albrecht]

Ugh, I've had a "psychic" hounding me to be on for the last month or so. The last show I did with one was the least downloaded show ever.

I don't mind paranormal shows but limit the psychics unless they are actually interesting due to some other aspect of their work, involvement with a crime or world events or something. Otherwise the shows with psychics are usually the same-old, same-old tired stuff. And why is he or she hounding you? Certainly they would "know" if they are going to be a guest on your show.

[bateman]

Love the show, man! Been listening to the Bill Birnes episodes...really good!

Thanks, man.

I don't mind paranormal shows but limit the psychics unless they are actually interesting due to some other aspect of their work, involvement with a crime or world events or something. Otherwise the shows with psychics are usually the same-old, same-old tired stuff. And why is he or she hounding you? Certainly they would "know" if they are going to be a guest on your show.

Someone who's been successful with cold cases, sure, I'd be interested. Not the "hey let's do readings for callers" types though.

[wr250]

Get in a psychic or channeler and do an interview with the dead one.

on the gabcast

[popple]

on the gabcast

That would be a lot of fun

...it would also take a lot of editing hahahahahahah

[onan]

I would only interview a psychic in a boxing ring.

[Richard Groyper]

Mental health professionals can be beneficial. The only problem I have is some doctor's on t.v. (not Dr. Phil) tend to push the "mental illness" card every time crime is committed. Tune in to cable "news" after a mother kills her children. That is the go-to response. I understand trying to raise awareness. Excusing people's actions isn't the answer. IMHO, people living with minor mental illnesses with minimal side effects does not MAKE them commit crimes. They could be prone to making bad choices/decisions. Obviously depending on the diagnosis, severity, and possibly medication.

Tell me, how does that make you feel?

[onan]

Mental health professionals can be beneficial. The only problem I have is some doctor's on t.v. (not Dr. Phil) tend to push the "mental illness" card every time crime is committed. Tune in to cable "news" after a mother kills her children. That is the go-to response. I understand trying to raise awareness. Excusing people's actions isn't the answer. IMHO, people living with minor mental illnesses with minimal side effects does not MAKE them commit crimes. They could be prone to making bad choices/decisions. Obviously depending on the diagnosis, severity, and possibly medication.

Tell me, how does that make you feel?

The simple definition of an illness is something that affects the person detrimentally. Choosing any action that would cause negative consequences, by strict definition of illness would qualify. However pragmatism must always rule out such thin connections.

Mental illness is a very large umbrella. A large percentage of mental instabilities, although very treatable, are often not treated and those infirmed continue on with hardly a notice. I know of no one that doesn't have some measure of difficulty within their thoughts and behaviors. Whether it is denigrating thoughts, intrusive thoughts, or racing thoughts. If not one of those conditions, I know of many that have some level of paranoid thoughts, delusional, or irrational thoughts. And to a lesser extent many people have some level of hallucinatory reactions or behaviors. Now alone those symptoms may have little affect on anyone's day to day. But if there is a confluence of those symptoms, trouble is most likely around the next turn.

And almost none of these symptoms would be hard to discuss if there were not such a stigma to "not-being-right". The phrase "living lives of quiet desperation" is something we should always keep in mind when talking to someone that doesn't seem "right". When anyone stays within the realm of overwhelming anxiety, coping skills often fail and then more rudimentary skills take over. That is why people become angry and resort to baser more violent responses.

And the above statements really only deal with mood disorders and psychosis. If one starts to look at personality disorders, many of the same type of coping skills are implemented but for different reasons.

So when anyone performs any kind of bizarre behaviors, especially disrupting-to-others type of behaviors, mental illness is an obvious explanation.

[wr250]

Whether it is denigrating thoughts, intrusive thoughts, or racing thoughts. If not one of those conditions, I know of many that have some level of paranoid thoughts, delusional, or irrational thoughts. And to a lesser extent many people have some level of hallucinatory reactions or behaviors.

why are you talking about me again? just cause i think gingers are evil (and im one of them) and see them everywhere. they even telepathically talk to me.
/*rest of paranoid rant deleted*/

[Richard Groyper]

The simple definition of an illness is something that affects the person detrimentally. Choosing any action that would cause negative consequences, by strict definition of illness would qualify. However pragmatism must always rule out such thin connections.

Mental illness is a very large umbrella. A large percentage of mental instabilities, although very treatable, are often not treated and those infirmed continue on with hardly a notice. I know of no one that doesn't have some measure of difficulty within their thoughts and behaviors. Whether it is denigrating thoughts, intrusive thoughts, or racing thoughts. If not one of those conditions, I know of many that have some level of paranoid thoughts, delusional, or irrational thoughts. And to a lesser extent many people have some level of hallucinatory reactions or behaviors. Now alone those symptoms may have little affect on anyone's day to day. But if there is a confluence of those symptoms, trouble is most likely around the next turn.

And almost none of these symptoms would be hard to discuss if there were not such a stigma to "not-being-right". The phrase "living lives of quiet desperation" is something we should always keep in mind when talking to someone that doesn't seem "right". When anyone stays within the realm of overwhelming anxiety, coping skills often fail and then more rudimentary skills take over. That is why people become angry and resort to baser more violent responses.

And the above statements really only deal with mood disorders and psychosis. If one starts to look at personality disorders, many of the same type of coping skills are implemented but for different reasons.

So when anyone performs any kind of bizarre behaviors, especially disrupting-to-others type of behaviors, mental illness is an obvious explanation.

I find the science and research into human conscienceness and brain fascinating. Neuron function (mirror) by far the most intriguing subject.

What I'm mainly concerned about is the overall loss of personal responsibility. One example, I've seen articles claiming that 'p.m.s.' is a valid excuse for poor and or criminal behavior. I say that to ask this; at what point/degree/severity does mental illness override one's ability to UNDERSTAND or not understand right from wrong? - should comprehension matter and to what degree? should society continue to coddle and infantilze people with mental conditions? Currently my opinion is no, but I'm willing to listen.

[starrmtn001]

I find the science and research into human conscienceness and brain fascinating. Neuron function (mirror) by far the most intriguing subject.

What I'm mainly concerned about is the overall loss of personal responsibility. One example, I've seen articles claiming that 'p.m.s.' is a valid excuse for poor and or criminal behavior. I say that to ask this; at what point/degree/severity does mental illness override one's ability to UNDERSTAND or not understand right from wrong? - should comprehension matter and to what degree? should society continue to coddle and infantilze people with mental conditions? Currently my opinion is no, but I'm willing to listen.

This link will not only answer your questions, but keep you busy for quite a while.  http://www.ucdenver.edu/academics/colleges/medicalschool/departments/neurology/Faculty/Pages/woodcock.aspx

Faculty

[/color][/font][/size]

[/color][/font][/size]

[/color][/font][/size]

[size=2.3em !important]

Welcome to the Department of Neurology

[/color][/font][/size]

[/color][/font][/size]

[/size]

[/size]

[/i]

[size=2.3em !important]

JONATHAN H. WOODCOCK, MD

Assistant Professor
Clinical Director,

Memory Disorders Clinic[/size]

[/u][/color]
Clinical Director,

Rocky Mountain Alzheimer’s Disease Center[/size]

[/u][/color][/b]

[Richard Groyper]

This link will not only answer your questions, but keep you busy for quite a while.  http://www.ucdenver.edu/academics/colleges/medicalschool/departments/neurology/Faculty/Pages/woodcock.aspx

Faculty

[/color][/font][/size]

[/color][/font][/size]

[/color][/font][/size]

[size=2.3em !important]

Welcome to the Department of Neurology

[/color][/font][/size]

[/color][/font][/size]

[/size]

[/size]

[/i]

[size=2.3em !important]

JONATHAN H.WOODCOCK, MD

Assistant Professor
Clinical Director,

Memory Disorders Clinic[/size]

[/u][/color]
Clinical Director,

Rocky Mountain Alzheimer’s Disease Center[/size]

[/u][/color][/b]

You had me at Woodcock.

[starrmtn001]

You had me at Woodcock.

I love the fact that he is certified in both neurology and psychiatry.  I've always been fascinated by the interaction here. 

[albrecht]

I love the fact that he is certified in both neurology and psychiatry.  I've always been fascinated by the interaction here.

Norry's next show. "The Brain" (he is clever naming shows and aspects of the show, like "Conversations With Linda" and, now, "We Get Emails"): Gina Ferguson, an expert in neuroscience, who works at a tanning salon in Peoria, Illinois and has a G.E.D. and a PhD in Homeopathic-Tantric Healing from Humanity Awakening online university will join us for our discussion on her new book.

But in seriousness, if you can find it somewhere "out there" in torrent land or archives these lectures were very interesting. Over a decade old now but still interesting. Amongst other very interesting things: "In 1999, Ramachandran, in collaboration with then post-doctoral fellow Eric Altschuler and colleague Jaime Pineda, was one of the first to suggest that a loss of mirror neurons might be the key deficit that explains many of the symptoms and signs of autism spectrum disorders. Between 2000 and 2006 Ramachandran and his colleagues at UC San Diego published a number of articles in support of this theory, which became known as the "Broken Mirrors" theory of autism"
http://www.bbc.co.uk/radio4/reith2003/
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Vilayanur_S._Ramachandran

Bateman, any of the above guys mentioned in recent threads would be an interesting guest if you wished to delve into these topics. Dr. Ramachandran has an accent but it is not too thick to hinder an interview or listening, I think.

[Richard Groyper]

I love the fact that he is certified in both neurology and psychiatry.  I've always been fascinated by the interaction here.

Plus his last name gives him the golden hat trick. 

Norry's next show. "The Brain" (he is clever naming shows and aspects of the show, like "Conversations With Linda" and, now, "We Get Emails"): Gina Ferguson, an expert in neuroscience, who works at a tanning salon in Peoria, Illinois and has a G.E.D. and a PhD in Homeopathic-Tantric Healing from Humanity Awakening online university will join us for our discussion on her new book.

But in seriousness, if you can find it somewhere "out there" in torrent land or archives these lectures were very interesting. Over a decade old now but still interesting. Amongst other very interesting things: "In 1999, Ramachandran, in collaboration with then post-doctoral fellow Eric Altschuler and colleague Jaime Pineda, was one of the first to suggest that a loss of mirror neurons might be the key deficit that explains many of the symptoms and signs of autism spectrum disorders. Between 2000 and 2006 Ramachandran and his colleagues at UC San Diego published a number of articles in support of this theory, which became known as the "Broken Mirrors" theory of autism"
http://www.bbc.co.uk/radio4/reith2003/
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Vilayanur_S._Ramachandran

Bateman, any of the above guys mentioned in recent threads would be an interesting guest if you wished to delve into these topics. Dr. Ramachandran has an accent but it is not too thick to hinder an interview or listening, I think.

Dr. Robert Lanza M.D. & his 'Biocentrism' theory, I find it a refreshing perspective explaining the universe.

Mirror neurons! 

I would also recommended a YouTube video called "God is in the Nuerons" - by AtheneWins. It's 49 minutes long but well worth the viewing.