Zimmerman Riots?

[Sardondi]

Those scenes were filmed in early '83...it was the GRID! 
         Through, actually, had that movie been filmed in 1985 or so, the HIV angle could been a storyline. Detention centers from Florida to Arkansas housing the Cuban emigres had an AIDS epidemic in the mid 80's.

Hey, if a strong case can be made that Top Gun is a gay love story, why not Scarface as well? Then Sosa's "Don't fuck me Tony" lines are not threats, but heartfelt expressions of love, warning and sacrifice. Hmmm. Tony was a poor, gay boy from Cooba, who dreamed of coming to America where he would be free to love who he wanted...and to build an empire as the world's greatest couturer......

Wow, two Bletchley references in two days. What are the odds?  The story of Alan Turing is wonderful reading, but don't forget the Polish cryptos who got the ball rolling, no pun intended!   The Nazis were done in by their own obsessive ways. The 4-rotor Enigma used by the Abwehr was complex and so prone to operator error (not sure, but this may have applied to the army 3-rotor as well), redundancy of transmission was made strict policy, which opened the door for the code breakers.  Establishing equivalence of two messages was the tiny thread that unraveled the whole thing...

Enigma-cracking would scarcely have been possible without the contribution of the Poles, the fruits of which they just handed over to the Brits. The Polish contribution overlooked once again. I'm not a Pole but the Poles get my vote as one tough-ass country. They kept on fighting any way they could, even though it was essentially abandoned by the allies in WWII and afterward. Poland was the European country most screwed-over since 1939 as they were attacked and had chunks of it taken by the Russians, who more importantly also took virtually all of the country's officer corps plus as many intellectuals, doctors, lawyers, priests and other professionals as could be rounded up to the tune of some 22,000 and massacred them in the Katyn Forest. Then Stalin's buddy at the time, A. Hitler, conquered what was left of Poland, and killed some 6-million of those the Russians passed over. Then in 1944, it was time to be "liberated" (read, "conquered") by the Russians again, who killed several hundred thousand more who thought Poles should live in freedom. And so the Russians kept Poland imprisoned (along with half of Europe) for almost 50 years. And wouldn't you know it was the Poles who were key in attacking the Soviet edifice which arguably ultimately led to the downfall of the USSR. A polish union leader, Lech Wałęsa, and a Polish pope, John Paul II aka Karol Józef Wojtyła, got things going in Poland. And then Ronald Reagan and Margaret Thatcher supplied the pressure overall to the Soviet system, and, boom, a 75-year mistake corrected.

...Damn it, I'm thread-jacking again.  Apologies.

A time-honored tradition which keeps things fun.

[The Neverender]

Aint that the truth, FtF?  If it bleeds, it leads.

Don't you mean: "If it bleeds we can kill it"

[Flaxen Hegemony]

Enigma-cracking would scarcely have been possible without the contribution of the Poles, the fruits of which they just handed over to the Brits. The Polish contribution overlooked once again. I'm not a Pole but the Poles get my vote as one tough-ass country.

Tough-ass country is right.  I recall you are a fellow WW2 history buff, so you well know that Poland gave the Axis a much tougher fight than France. Nearly a fourfold manpower inferiority to the French and their allies, yet lasted just as long, and against a second Soviet adversary joining the party (who only jumped in after they were sure the cops wouldn't show up from the Germans playing the war drums too loudly).  The terrain issues and Allied blunders in France probably put an asterisk or two somewhere up there, but even then, the numbers are still impressive.

[Yorkshire pud]

They kept on fighting any way they could, even though it was essentially abandoned by the allies in WWII and afterward.

Point of order; The reason that might be, is because from 1939 until 1941, Britain was fighting Germany alone. We very nearly had the prospect of Germany invading us if hadn't been for the pilots of fighter command in 1940. So ferociously but outnumbered and outgunned did they stave off the bombers of the Luftwaffe and their fighter escorts, that Goering asked Galland what he needed to defeat the RAF. He replied "A squadron of Spitfires". So was coined by Churchill (of whom you're familiar) the 'Few'.


So, yeah, although Poland might have taken second place, remember the reason Britain declared war was because of Germany's invasion of Poland. They also went into France, Holland, Denmark, Czechoslovakia, Norway and Belgium.. Britain was against a massive army, well equipped, well resourced and well motivated.


Of course; if Japan had got it's finger out and bomber Pearl Harbour before 1941, the USA would have been there to get stuck in sooner. But the tardy Japs waited two years to get their aircraft carriers built. Gits.


As for postwar: well the resulting carve up between Britain, Soviet Union and the USA, resulted in Poland being swamped..As were the other Eastern European countries of course..Britain was flattened..Almost every major city had been bombed, some to obliteration. We were broke, because the lend lease arrangements with our 'special friend' The US government, ensured we would stay broke for some decades.It was paid off a few years ago (But of course the bankers all over the west have ensured we'd be crippled other ways)..


So post war we had to rebuild physically another country..it's infrastructure, housing, factories, roads...we only came off food rationing in 1951. So sadly, we were in n fit state to take on the Soviet Union post war..But far from being resentful, the Poles I have known and worked with, don't have anything be the feeling of our respective countries being in the shit together at one time in the past..Now they're not so enthusiastic of the Russians, but then they're old enough to remember pre-Glasnost.

[Flaxen Hegemony]

Point of order; The reason that might be, is because from 1939 until 1941, Britain was fighting Germany alone. We very nearly had the prospect of Germany invading us if hadn't been for the pilots of fighter command in 1940. So ferociously but outnumbered and outgunned did they stave off the bombers of the Luftwaffe and their fighter escorts, that Goering asked Galland what he needed to defeat the RAF. He replied "A squadron of Spitfires". So was coined by Churchill (of whom you're familiar) the 'Few'.

The infamous Operation Sealion that thankfully never was.  Hitler's emotional decision to shift the bombing sorties to London may have been the decisive tilt in Britain's direction.  Until that point, Goering (somehow!) was bumbling his way through a reasonable strategy of blinding the British at the coastline.

 

[Juan]

I hate to derail this thread, but back to something of the original topic - It's been my contention all along that the Zimmerman case was ginned up to attack the Florida stand-your-ground law.  While the defense did not rely on the law in the case, there are still protests against the law in Florida.  For instance, it hasn't gotten any national attention, but there are protesters occupying Governor Rick Scott's office demanding he call a special session of the legislature to repeal the law.

[CampsieNP]

Perhaps UFO fill.
I don't like guns and do not have one. But I figure let people have them if they want.

Honestly, if I were attacked like GZ was I would have to take the assault because I do not carry a gun, which is what these thugs rely upon. I am disgusted the full weight of the federal govt is still going after this man for defending himself. And probably to drive a larger agenda like you say UFO fill. What a mess. And of course in the mean time, the 1% go on their merry way while we are all distracted by this nonsense.

[Yorkshire pud]

I know it's probably on your wires..but this is on ours...This is one very silly thing to do in my opinion..Very silly.. The generous might read it at face value and see where he's coming from. But in the circumstances I think it's really misguided, and it could be inferred that he's making it known Zimmerman shouldn't be acquitted..It certainly (in my view) prejudices any future civil case.


http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/world-us-canada-23382880

[The Neverender]

yeah i just saw this... too... Obama is really looking to stir up some division... Race War is back on!

[Eddie Coyle]

I know it's probably on your wires..but this is on ours...This is one very silly thing to do in my opinion..Very silly.. The generous might read it at face value and see where he's coming from. But in the circumstances I think it's really misguided, and it could be inferred that he's making it known Zimmerman shouldn't be acquitted..It certainly (in my view) prejudices any future civil case.


http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/world-us-canada-23382880

That's our Solipsist-in-Chief. He can't possibly imagine himself not being the very cynosure of the universe.

             It's insulting. Obama was a college bound child of privilege who never experienced a moment of urban American living in his upbringing. Trayvon was a dropout, self described "no limit nigga" who would be lucky to get a GED.

              Worry about Detroit, Barry. Not this shit. America is Detroit.

[PB the Deplorable]

I know it's probably on your wires..but this is on ours...This is one very silly thing to do in my opinion..Very silly.. The generous might read it at face value and see where he's coming from. But in the circumstances I think it's really misguided, and it could be inferred that he's making it known Zimmerman shouldn't be acquitted..It certainly (in my view) prejudices any future civil case.


http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/world-us-canada-23382880

It is not misguided, it is calculated and it is intentional.   Obama is nothing if not divisive and destructive - same with Holder - and there is nothing more divisive and destructive in America than race politics.  These people will never allow us to put race behind us.

[ItsOver]

             
             .... Worry about Detroit, Barry. Not this shit. America is Detroit.

If Obama had a city, it would look like Detroit.

[West of the Rockies]

Okay, well, just to play devil's advocate (a position that pays very poorly, by the way), do you think that there was anything in Obama's speech that was valid?  Was it possible that 33-34 years ago, Obama may well have resembled Martin and could have been regarded as suspicious were he seen walking in the wrong neighborhood?  If you are not black, can you say with absolute and utter certainty that you know what it is like to walk down the street and see people regard you suspiciously, perhaps cross the street or lock their car doors?  Are "stand your ground" laws absolutely flawless and incapable of being abused?

I don't think Obama's speech was any sort of "I Have a Dream" sort of speech, but I think he may well have meant what he said.  He is a politician, so everything he says and does perhaps does indeed have an agenda, a hidden meaning.  But before we all throw the speech into the circular file and call it shit, might we ponder his words?

[The Neverender]

Okay, well, just to play devil's advocate (a position that pays very poorly, by the way), do you think that there was anything in Obama's speech that was valid?  Was it possible that 33-34 years ago, Obama may well have resembled Martin and could have been regarded as suspicious were he seen walking in the wrong neighborhood?  If you are not black, can you say with absolute and utter certainty that you know what it is like to walk down the street and see people regard you suspiciously, perhaps cross the street or lock their car doors?  Are "stand your ground" laws absolutely flawless and incapable of being abused?

I don't think Obama's speech was any sort of "I Have a Dream" sort of speech, but I think he may well have meant what he said.  He is a politician, so everything he says and does perhaps does indeed have an agenda, a hidden meaning.  But before we all throw the speech into the circular file and call it shit, might we ponder his words?

ummm pretty sure you don't go to Columbia University, let alone Harvard Law School when you resemble anything like Mr. Martin. They definitely don't let you head the Harvard Law Review with Mr. Martin credentials... 

[Eddie Coyle]

Okay, well, just to play devil's advocate (a position that pays very poorly, by the way), do you think that there was anything in Obama's speech that was valid?  Was it possible that 33-34 years ago, Obama may well have resembled Martin and could have been regarded as suspicious were he seen walking in the wrong neighborhood?  If you are not black, can you say with absolute and utter certainty that you know what it is like to walk down the street and see people regard you suspiciously, perhaps cross the street or lock their car doors?  Are "stand your ground" laws absolutely flawless and incapable of being abused?

I don't think Obama's speech was any sort of "I Have a Dream" sort of speech, but I think he may well have meant what he said.  He is a politician, so everything he says and does perhaps does indeed have an agenda, a hidden meaning.  But before we all throw the speech into the circular file and call it shit, might we ponder his words?

Here's a scenario he should ponder. Friday, Feb 2, 1990. Two 14 year old white kids on a city bus are cornered by three blacks aged 16-17, and one of them reveals a pistol. He talks about how much he wants "shoot a white boy". After about 5 minutes the three blacks, having had their fun, leave the bus.

             I was one of the two white kids. FUCK HIM. I've had more guns(1) drawn on me by blacks, than he has pulled on him by whites. What a piece of shit he is.

     
         

       

         

[West of the Rockies]

ummm pretty sure you don't go to Columbia University, let alone Harvard Law School when you resemble anything like Mr. Martin. They definitely don't let you head the Harvard Law Review with Mr. Martin credentials...

You're a few keystrokes away, Neverender, from being able to compare the appearance of our president at 17 and Trayvon Martin.  If you see zero similarity in appearance, I'd be surprised.

I know that at 17, I probably often looked at least like I was trying to tough and dangerous.  Isn't that sort of what teenaged boys do?

Does such behavior get us into trouble sometimes?  Damn straight. 

Again, let me ask, is there nothing -- nothing -- NOTHING in Obama's speech that struck you as something worth pondering?

[Yorkshire pud]

You're a few keystrokes away, Neverender, from being able to compare the appearance of our president at 17 and Trayvon Martin.  If you see zero similarity in appearance, I'd be surprised.

I know that at 17, I probably often looked at least like I was trying to tough and dangerous.  Isn't that sort of what teenaged boys do?

Does such behavior get us into trouble sometimes?  Damn straight. 

Again, let me ask, is there nothing -- nothing -- NOTHING in Obama's speech that struck you as something worth pondering?

Yes I think so..BUT I think his timing is shit. If what he said had to be said, it shouldn't have been said either by him, or now..I don't know if there's a right time, or a right person, but just after this trial when the emotions are running as they are is pretty crap planning. Especially so when there's the possibility of a civil case by the Martin family.


We get our own prime ministers stepping forward to give a sound bite when particularly nasty assaults and murders take place on a victim..however, it's never when the victim has possibly/proven to have instigated the ensuing death; Look up Stephen Lawrence..he was murdered by a white gang..And yes it's become a political football; compounded by the Metropolitan police in London being more than found wanting..there's far too much to go into here, but it's easy to find.


However, it wouldn't have been the case if he'd started the fight that resulted in his death, and the story would have long been forgotten, and no politician would have made a speech that appeared to favour one side or the other.

[West of the Rockies]

Yes, Yorkshire, maybe the timing IS wrong.  Maybe Obama might have let someone else make such a statement... and maybe his message also makes some people uncomfortable.  If it makes us all think a little, I see no harm.

I have no grand insight into the Zimmerman case.  I didn't follow it other than what I encountered by random web surfing and what bits I may have heard on NPR.  You don't see me quarreling with the verdict.  Maybe if I were in that jury pool I'd have come to the same conclusion.  But I don't think Obama was especially out of bounds for saying what he did.

[Juan]

It's worse than that, Yorkie.  The Justice Department, which is part of the executive portion of government, and thus under the president, is investigating Zimmerman and threatening criminal action against him.  How is this not a violation of Zimmerman's civil rights?

[The Neverender]

You're a few keystrokes away, Neverender, from being able to compare the appearance of our president at 17 and Trayvon Martin.  If you see zero similarity in appearance, I'd be surprised.

I know that at 17, I probably often looked at least like I was trying to tough and dangerous.  Isn't that sort of what teenaged boys do?

Does such behavior get us into trouble sometimes?  Damn straight. 

Again, let me ask, is there nothing -- nothing -- NOTHING in Obama's speech that struck you as something worth pondering?

I don't see how "looks" has anything to do with this... The president is trying to say that could have been "him" high on drugs, beating on a "White Hispanic." Unless Obama is trying to clue us in that he is Mr. Martin's real dad... "looks like" or "my son would look like him..." It doesn't mean anything, it's an emotional appeal to inflame the conversation.

To your point about being a teenager and getting into trouble... I didn't smoke weed, deal drugs, get kicked out of school for fighting, or attack a neighborhood watchmen. I was busting my ass in school, so i could go to college, so i could go to grad school, so i could have a profession. Much like Mr. Obama did. Mr. Obama has a lot more in common with a white guy from the middle of nowhere, than he does with Mr. Martin.

Simply put, this is not the case anyone should be using to advance any sort of civil rights agenda. I'd love to see the cycle of violence and poverty end in the minority communities... but the circumstances surrounding Mr. Martin are not very sympathetic.   

You want to know who i'm sympathetic to? All the people who get gunned down by gang violence in places like LA and Chicago. When 6 month old babies and Honor students are getting shot I care. And if Mr. Obama gave a shit about actually stopping people from being murdered, he should have brought it up waaaay before this. Hundreds of people are shot every year in Chicago, Mr. Obama's home town, but he uses Mr. Martin as the center piece for his argument. He is simply trying to exploit the current outrage for his own political ends, whatever they might be (I wont speculate here, but we might guess).

I don't know how we are going to fix all the problems we currently have when the President is just creating more things to fix.   

[Flaxen Hegemony]

You're a few keystrokes away, Neverender, from being able to compare the appearance of our president at 17 and Trayvon Martin.  If you see zero similarity in appearance, I'd be surprised.

I know that at 17, I probably often looked at least like I was trying to tough and dangerous.  Isn't that sort of what teenaged boys do?

Does such behavior get us into trouble sometimes?  Damn straight. 

Again, let me ask, is there nothing -- nothing -- NOTHING in Obama's speech that struck you as something worth pondering?

No disrespect intended, WOTR, but think about what?  Ponder what?  Trivial tautologies about someone's appearance 30 years ago shouldn't be given intellectual value or motivation simply because of the speaker's status as President.  So he might have looked like Trayvon Martin many years ago.  As the kids say these days, "cool story bro".

[RealCool Daddio]

I know that at 17, I probably often looked at least like I was trying to tough and dangerous.  Isn't that sort of what teenaged boys do?

When I was seventeen, I looked like Daniel Ash - so not so much on the tough and dangerous side.  It did work with what Warren Zevon called "girls with low self esteem", tho.


[attachimg=1]

[PB the Deplorable]

... was anything in Obama's speech that was valid?...

This speech was damage control.     

 
And the idea that there are a bunch of whites out looking for black kids to shoot is absurd. 

[onan]

I never thought I would say this: I agree with Charles Barkley.

"I agreed with the verdict,"

"I feel sorry that young kid got killed. But they didn't have enough evidence to charge him."

And I most agree with this:

"It gives every white person and black person, who's racist, a platform to vent their ignorance,"

[West of the Rockies]

When I was seventeen, I looked like Daniel Ash - so not so much on the tough and dangerous side.  It did work with what Warren Zevon called "girls with low self esteem", tho.


[attachimg=1]

Yeah, my secret girl-attracting method was to be sensitive and gentlemanly.  The results?  Well, they say that girls like bad boys for a reason, I guess.  And that notion that women love a man in uniform? Well, my light-blue polyester police uniform sure worked wonders!   Okay, that might be mistating things a bit, but I did get flipped off more often, so that was at least some reaction, right? 

[The Neverender]

Yeah, my secret girl-attracting method was to be sensitive and gentlemanly.  The results?  Well, they say that girls like bad boys for a reason, I guess.  And that notion that women love a man in uniform? Well, my light-blue polyester police uniform sure worked wonders!   Okay, that might be mistating things a bit, but I did get flipped off more often, so that was at least some reaction, right? 

haha something's better than nothing!

[The Neverender]

since we are pretty far down the Race Issues Rabbit Hole....

Has anyone seen/read the "Essay by a White Teacher in a Black High School" that has been making it's way around the internets?

I'd like to think it's a load of bunk... because it's just too depressing if it is true...

so is it racist propaganda? or a sad description of what predominantly black schools are like? I have never been inside a school like that so i have zero point of reference   

[onan]

since we are pretty far down the Race Issues Rabbit Hole....

Has anyone seen/read the "Essay by a White Teacher in a Black High School" that has been making it's way around the internets?

I'd like to think it's a load of bunk... because it's just too depressing if it is true...

so is it racist propaganda? or a sad description of what predominantly black schools are like? I have never been inside a school like that so i have zero point of reference

I think the truth is in your perspective. Are there bad schools? I would have to say probably. Is it due to a majority of black students? I doubt it.


I didn't read the letter. But a simple test will show if it is racist. Did it make you more likely to dislike or hate blacks? if you answer yes...

[Sardondi]

...I didn't read the letter. But a simple test will show if it is racist. Did it make you more likely to dislike or hate blacks? if you answer yes...

I have to disagree, because truth is incapable of being "racist": it either is or isn't true, that's all. And there are a lot of true events which make me long for punishment of the specific blacks who have perpetrated quite heinous acts; just as there are far more actual events committed by whites which make me yearn for the days of drawing and quartering. But as for calling an accurate rendition of a terrible events "racist", how can this be? Besides, tales which making one "more likely to hate" persons of a particular race who are not themselves personally responsible - I am speechless. I just don't know of anyone who thinks in those terms.

[Tray von Gutenberg]

...but as for calling an accurate rendition of a terrible events "racist", how can this be? Besides, tales which making one "more likely to hate" persons of a particular race who are not themselves personally responsible - I am speechless. I just don't know of anyone who thinks in those terms.

How dare you sir, to presume that reason and rational thought might actually prevail in public intercourse with those who dare not, "call a spade, a spade," however colloquial yet accurate that phrase may be.