President Donald J. Trump

[TigerLily]

At least someone was paying attention. But I will be more impressed if you can discuss British politics with SV

Concerning the current deficit, historical context is helpful

The United States public debt as a percentage of GDP reached its highest level during Harry Truman's first presidential term, during and after World War II. Public debt as a percentage of GDP fell rapidly in the post-World War II period, and reached a low in 1974 under President Richard Nixon.Debt as a share of GDP has consistently increased since then, except during the terms of presidents Jimmy Carter and Bill Clinton. Public debt rose during the 1980s, as President Reagan cut tax rates and increased military spending. It fell during the 1990s, due to decreased military spending, increased taxes and the 1990s boom. Public debt rose sharply in the wake of the 2007â€"08 financial crisis and the resulting significant tax revenue declines and spending increases. However, public debt as a share of GDP has stabilized since then, and is projected to decline through the 2010s. -Wikipedia

The only current presidential candidate with a balanced budget plan is Hillary Clinton

[GravitySucks]

I am a conservative and have no love for Obama. I will just address Chefist's points, agreeing with some, disagreeing with others.

1. The federal debt is obscene. The debt will be $21 trillion but Obama did not do this by himself. The debt doubled during Bush's 8 years in office and doubled again under Obama's 8 years in office. During this 16 years the Congress was controlled by both the Democrats and the Republicans during different sessions. This shows that the entire government is corrupt and broken. Democrats and republicans are two side of the same coin.

2. Raising the minimal wage to $15 will have a very adverse affect on the poor. Today, if someone makes less as a wage than the "poverty line" they receive an Earned Income Credit on their tax refund. 50% pay no income tax and those that work actually get a higher refund than the taxes they paid. Raising the minimum wage will reduce the number of low paying jobs and small businesses will shut down or refuse to grow the business. In cities were the minimum wage was raised, workers have asked for less hours so that they would still qualify for the earned income credit.

3. It is true, some insurance companies are raising the rates up to 60% this year, but he is way off on deductibles. Most deductibles under Obamacare start, not at $1000, but $2500, $3500 and I have seen policies as high as $7500 deductible for a family of 4.

4. Hillary was for the war, there is some debate on whether Trump was for it before he was against it. I believe Hillary is a neocon and will continue Obama's failed policies in funding the current efforts with fucked up rules of engagement and no clear definition of what victory means.

5. I try and not talk about the the UK in a detrimental manner because they have been our staunchest partner in world affairs and I hope we continue to be theirs. I do worry about their future, but I can't speak from personal experience. It appears they are being overrun by Muslim immigrants and the fabric of their society is changing faster than I would have imagined, but I will reserve judgement for now. I hope they remain a strong country and stem the tide before they end up having to coexist with enclaves governed by Sharia law.

[SredniVashtar]

Chefist, I can't quote what you commented on, which is a good job for you because, with respect, that was some of the silliest shit I ever read. If you are just going to hear a 'leftist' dog whistle and start barking at me every time then it's probably best not to even bother responding. I do expect a bit better from people, otherwise I get bored and disheartened. I enjoy hearing other arguments, I'd just like to hear coherent ones.

So, you don't pay people more and the economy stagnates, is that the master plan? You're another one that would benefit from reading that book which mentions something he calls 'Condorcet's Secret' where people unconsciously conspire against their own interests. Elites don't need to use force to stay in control because the people too often do it by themselves. You've heard that line from somewhere else about inflation and I bet you trot it out at every opportunity, I can tell.

The failings of Obamacare don't negate the principle of affordable health care. It sounds like it was a fudge from the start for the benefit of big business rather than a genuine attempt to address a real need.

Trump looks like a nailed-on jingoist. If you get him in the WH and a terrorist event strikes, do you really see him as someone who is going to tell you all to hug a Muzzie and be friends? He will bomb the shit out of any place that gives him even the slightest opportunity. I don't pretend to be a HC supporter, but if you can't see what stares you in the face about Trump then I don't credit you with much insight.

People can say all they want about the UK, I don't care. But too often it's the gibbering ravings of some shut-in from Buttfuck, Idaho, who barely left their own town and gets all their views on the outside world (that's assuming they have even heard of an outside world) from the Daily Mail website. It gets old after the 100th time and betrays their embarrassing ineptitude when it comes to world affairs.

[chefist]

Chefist, I can't quote what you commented on, which is a good job for you because, with respect, that was some of the silliest shit I ever read. If you are just going to hear a 'leftist' dog whistle and start barking at me every time then it's probably best not to even bother responding. I do expect a bit better from people, otherwise I get bored and disheartened. I enjoy hearing other arguments, I'd just like to hear coherent ones.

So, you don't pay people more and the economy stagnates, is that the master plan? You're another one that would benefit from reading that book which mentions something he calls 'Condorcet's Secret' where people unconsciously conspire against their own interests. Elites don't need to use force to stay in control because the people too often do it by themselves. You've heard that line from somewhere else about inflation and I bet you trot it out at every opportunity, I can tell.

The failings of Obamacare don't negate the principle of affordable health care. It sounds like it was a fudge from the start for the benefit of big business rather than a genuine attempt to address a real need.

Trump looks like a nailed-on jingoist. If you get him in the WH and a terrorist event strikes, do you really see him as someone who is going to tell you all to hug a Muzzie and be friends? He will bomb the shit out of any place that gives him even the slightest opportunity. I don't pretend to be a HC supporter, but if you can't see what stares you in the face about Trump then I don't credit you with much insight.

People can say all they want about the UK, I don't care. But too often it's the gibbering ravings of some shut-in from Buttfuck, Idaho, who barely left their own town and gets all their views on the outside world (that's assuming they have even heard of an outside world) from the Daily Mail website. It gets old after the 100th time and betrays their embarrassing ineptitude when it comes to world affairs.

I hear ya. I only wanted to throw some data and stats out there. The Dems were paid off by the Medical Industrial Complex to structure Obamacare they way it is. It was never meant to give "affordable health care", but to increase the cost of healthcare to all that pay in, to help the small percent that were not covered. There were better ways to cover those that were uninsured before without such a bloated bureaucratic system. It was estimated that they simply could have been added to the existing Medicaid rolls for around 1/4th the cost of Obamacare. The Dems knew they couldn't get that passed, so they sold Obamacare as "saving the average US family $2500 per year"...which they knew at the time was a complete lie.

[SredniVashtar]

I am a conservative and have no love for Obama. I will just address Chefist's points, agreeing with some, disagreeing with others.

2. Raising the minimal wage to $15 will have a very adverse affect on the poor. Today, if someone makes less as a wage than the "poverty line" they receive an Earned Income Credit on their tax refund. 50% pay no income tax and those that work actually get a higher refund than the taxes they paid. Raising the minimum wage will reduce the number of low paying jobs and small businesses will shut down or refuse to grow the business. In cities were the minimum wage was raised, workers have asked for less hours so that they would still qualify for the earned income credit.

5. I try and not talk about the the UK in a detrimental manner because they have been our staunchest partner in world affairs and I hope we continue to be theirs. I do worry about their future, but I can't speak from personal experience. It appears they are being overrun by Muslim immigrants and the fabric of their society is changing faster than I would have imagined, but I will reserve judgement for now. I hope they remain a strong country and stem the tide before they end up having to coexist with enclaves governed by Sharia law.

Regarding those two points. Can't you see that the point about the minimum wage is totally counter-productive? It actively encourages people to be low-paid, and how is that going to help an economy to thrive? The point about businesses shutting down is short-sighted because the assumption there is that people are not spending the extra money they make, which is of course nonsense. Nobody mentions 'trickle-down' economics much these days, because it was obvious balls, but I prefer to think of 'trickle up' where businesses will actually experience knock-on benefits from the extra purchasing power of people actually contributing to the economy rather than struggling to survive all the time. Unless you buy all that hooey about rampant inflation being the result of people actually earning decent money for a change. Too often, I find, conservatives are in the grip of shibboleths that are basically without foundation, but they bring them out on every occasion.

The point about Muslims is untrue. Nobody is overrun. The ones I know are contributing to the economy and becoming increasingly westernised and their faith is more of a cultural artefact than deep-seated religious belief. I wonder how many you really know? Not many, I suspect. Sharia law won't happen either. The longer different cultures live here the greater they become assimilated, and ideas that may seem attractive to a first generation immigrant become less so by the second or third generation.

Again, all this is informed by - in my view - pessimism and ignorance.

[TigerLily]

Raising minimum wage is not a theory on the west coast but already in practice.  All 3 west coast states including Alaska and Hawaii are hovering close to $10 an hour with many of the larger cities over this already.

One thought is waging raises will hurt small businesses. Another thought is higher wages are absorbed by increasing prices and passing on to consumers. The impact on consumers is offset by the increased overall benefit of more disposable income available to buy more products. As I said. Not theory but an actuality

[GravitySucks]

Regarding those two points. Can't you see that the point about the minimum wage is totally counter-productive? It actively encourages people to be low-paid, and how is that going to help an economy to thrive? The point about businesses shutting down is short-sighted because the assumption there is that people are not spending the extra money they make, which is of course nonsense. Nobody mentions 'trickle-down' economics much these days, because it was obvious balls, but I prefer to think of 'trickle up' where businesses will actually experience knock-on benefits from the extra purchasing power of people actually contributing to the economy rather than struggling to survive all the time. Unless you buy all that hooey about rampant inflation being the result of people actually earning decent money for a change. Too often, I find, conservatives are in the grip of shibboleths that are basically without foundation, but they bring them out on every occasion.

The point about Muslims is untrue. Nobody is overrun. The ones I know are contributing to the economy and becoming increasingly westernised and their faith is more of a cultural artefact than deep-seated religious belief. I wonder how many you really know? Not many, I suspect. Sharia law won't happen either. The longer different cultures live here the greater they become assimilated, and ideas that may seem attractive to a first generation immigrant become less so by the second or third generation.

Again, all this is informed by - in my view - pessimism and ignorance.

What you may not realize is that the federal minimum wage is just a line in the sand. This wage is generally used for part time workers, seasonal workers and high school students. Almost every job, even the lowest level entry jobs I see advertised in my local area offer several dollars an hour over minimum wage.  Wages should be market driven. The problem we have here is that our tax code is so complex, you get penalized for making more money. We used to have a robust, decentralized manufacturing sector where decent wages could be had within virtually every urban area. For many reasons those jobs no longer exist. I read a report the other day that there are now more health care workers than there are workers in our manufacturing sector. Our economy needs an overhaul, but it has to start with our tax code, not with the minimum wage. To be successful at that, we need to drastically reduce the size of our federal government.

I am glad to hear, from you, that the immigration problem is not as bad as some of the news here (and albrecht) would lead one to believe.  Assimilation used to be not only an expectation, but a requirement in the US. It is not that way any longer. Do some immigrants assimilate? Yes. But a large portion of the ones in the US now (both legally and illegally) do not. And the government does not require them to. i am stating the number from recall, but the local paper wrote and article about one Houston school that was having to accommodate 74 different languages.

[SciFiAuthor]

Regarding those two points. Can't you see that the point about the minimum wage is totally counter-productive? It actively encourages people to be low-paid, and how is that going to help an economy to thrive? The point about businesses shutting down is short-sighted because the assumption there is that people are not spending the extra money they make, which is of course nonsense. Nobody mentions 'trickle-down' economics much these days, because it was obvious balls, but I prefer to think of 'trickle up' where businesses will actually experience knock-on benefits from the extra purchasing power of people actually contributing to the economy rather than struggling to survive all the time. Unless you buy all that hooey about rampant inflation being the result of people actually earning decent money for a change. Too often, I find, conservatives are in the grip of shibboleths that are basically without foundation, but they bring them out on every occasion.

The point about Muslims is untrue. Nobody is overrun. The ones I know are contributing to the economy and becoming increasingly westernised and their faith is more of a cultural artefact than deep-seated religious belief. I wonder how many you really know? Not many, I suspect. Sharia law won't happen either. The longer different cultures live here the greater they become assimilated, and ideas that may seem attractive to a first generation immigrant become less so by the second or third generation.

Again, all this is informed by - in my view - pessimism and ignorance.

I actually agree with you more than I disagree. And I'll kick it up a notch. We're moving past the minimum wage argument and into the guaranteed minimum income argument. With automation and technological unemployment already affecting society at an accelerating rate, there won't be a choice but to institute a guaranteed minimum income of some sort. We have at best a decade left before job creation is permanently outstripped by job automation. It's probably a good idea for society to recognize that now while it can be managed.

As far as Muslims go, you're right. It does end up being more of a cultural artifact than a threat. Trouble is, I don't like cultural artifacts and I really don't like religions. So to me there doesn't seem to be much point to importing any of it, moderate or not. You want to enrich your society? Import agnostics and atheists. Or harmless pagans that like to run around naked.

[GravitySucks]

Raising minimum wage is not a theory on the west coast but already in practice.  All 3 west coast states including Alaska and Hawaii are hovering close to $10 an hour with many of the larger cities over this already.

One thought is waging raises will hurt small businesses. Another thought is higher wages are absorbed by increasing prices and passing on to consumers. The impact on consumers is offset by the increased overall benefit of more disposable income available to buy more products. As I said. Not theory but an actuality

Th unions in California lobbied for a raise in the minimum wage and as soon as it was passed they asked for an exemption. http://www.cnbc.com/2015/07/30/la-union-wants-to-be-exempt-from-15-minimum-wage.html

They want to be able to negotiate contracts based on lowest cost. Who are they looking out for?

[21st Century Man]

What you may not realize is that the federal minimum wage is just a line in the sand. This wage is generally used for part time workers, seasonal workers and high school students. Almost every job, even the lowest level entry jobs I see advertised in my local area offer several dollars an hour over minimum wage.  Wages should be market driven. The problem we have here is that our tax code is so complex, you get penalized for making more money. We used to have a robust, decentralized manufacturing sector where decent wages could be had within virtually every urban area. For many reasons those jobs no longer exist. I read a report the other day that there are now more health care workers than there are workers in our manufacturing sector. Our economy needs an overhaul, but it has to start with our tax code, not with the minimum wage. To be successful at that, we need to drastically reduce the size of our federal government.

I am glad to hear, from you, that the immigration problem is not as bad as some of the news here (and albrecht) would lead one to believe.  Assimilation used to be not only an expectation, but a requirement in the US. It is not that way any longer. Do some immigrants assimilate? Yes. But a large portion of the ones in the US now (both legally and illegally) do not. And the government does not require them to. i am stating the number from recall, but the local paper wrote and article about one Houston school that was having to accommodate 74 different languages.

Well said,  GS.

[GuerrillaUnReal]

And again you have nothing to back up what you say except flowery words. Please don't respond with paragraphs of inane bullshit. Have fun with all the freedom you have in the UK.

There's an interesting book that you might care to read (although I wonder when you last read a book, because most of the time it looks like you don't do more than scan a few headlines) called 'The Global Minotaur'. It made the case that the system broke down post-2008 because the USA stopped performing a vital function, which involved deliberately running a budget and trade deficit to stimulate the world economy. After the crash, they drew their horns in and things have never been the same. It's worth a read, but I doubt you're capable of looking at anything from a different perspective. Or reading anything that lasts more than a couple of hundred words.

To a large extent the spectre of inflation is a myth promulgated by the right, who hate the thought of seeing the value of their savings depreciate in value. They see a certain level of unemployment to be quite desirable, as long as they aren't caught up in the effects (which they almost certainly never are). The USA isn't in danger of becoming Weimar Germany because a very specific set of conditions were in operation then. People bleat about the horrors of a decent minimum wage, but never consider that these people then have increased spending power to go out and stimulate the economy further. All the advocates of austerity are interested in is pulling up the drawbridge and screw everyone else.

I don't know what regulations you are referring to. If you align with the Libertarian crowd they'd still have 5-year-olds shinning up chimneys. Some regulations are a good thing. If businesses are that rickety that they will be knocked out by a light breeze like that then it doesn't sound like they had very solid foundations to start with. Likewise health care. Is it a good thing that people have access to a decent level of health care, or not? You're supposed to be the world's only superpower, but you have far too many people who can't afford to access decent services. Is that a reasonable situation, or not? And is the money invested going to fall into a bottomless pit, or will there be concomitant benefits in the future that that report didn't take into account?

Too often I hear the mantra 'we can't afford it' from some smooth-faced bastard in a sharp suit, but they can quickly afford the money to bomb the buggery out of some poor sods in the middle east if their paymasters in the defence industry tell them that's what they should be doing. That truly is a waste of money, unless you are in a small elite who profits from the contracts. I bet you were one of those people who supported going into Iraq after 9/11 (you don't sound like an independent thinker to me) and anyone who did holds a certain amount of responsibility for the current situation.

Don't try and tell me about the bloody country where I live either! You're the dolt who was getting his drawers in a knot about the Muslim mayor, when the guy is as moderate as they come. You have never been here, for sure, and I doubt whether you ever leave the confines of your own country. Try reading around subjects for a change, instead of believing the first thing that confirms your ignorant view of the world.

I could say more, but this is, frankly, a waste of time anyway, although I thought there were a few points to make. I don't know what you mean by 'flowery'. I apologise profusely for being reasonably literate, but I did make an effort to provide some information that wasn't parroted by a fucking website, unlike  you.

Why can't this guy do one simple thing? Is this even worth bothering to read and respond to?

[SciFiAuthor]

I am glad to hear, from you, that the immigration problem is not as bad as some of the news here (and albrecht) would lead one to believe.  Assimilation used to be not only an expectation, but a requirement in the US. It is not that way any longer. Do some immigrants assimilate? Yes. But a large portion of the ones in the US now (both legally and illegally) do not. And the government does not require them to. i am stating the number from recall, but the local paper wrote and article about one Houston school that was having to accommodate 74 different languages.

It's interesting how people defend languages to the point that the government is compelled to accommodate "diversity" in language. It would be more helpful to promote integration of language so we don't have hundreds of the fucking things worldwide. The closer we get to a global single language, i.e. English, the better. The left used to agree, they used to promote bullshit like Esperanto. Now they don't. Wonder what happened?

[TigerLily]

Th unions in California lobbied for a raise in the minimum wage and as soon as it was passed they asked for an exemption. http://www.cnbc.com/2015/07/30/la-union-wants-to-be-exempt-from-15-minimum-wage.html

They want to be able to negotiate contracts based on lowest cost. Who are they looking out for?

An attempt to stem the flow of jobs going overseas since there is very little incentive for management to do it except patriotism

[TigerLily]

It's interesting how people defend languages to the point that the government is compelled to accommodate "diversity" in language. It would be more helpful to promote integration of language so we don't have hundreds of the fucking things worldwide. The closer we get to a global single language, i.e. English, the better. The left used to agree, they used to promote bullshit like Esperanto. Now they don't. Wonder what happened?

What if that language were Chinese or (gasp) French?

[GravitySucks]

An attempt to stem the flow of jobs going overseas since there is very little incentive for management to do it except patriotism

So why would unions lobby for the increase and then request the exemption so that they were the only entity that could compete?  The increase was either a good thing or it wasn't. They were trying to make it to where only union workers could get jobs... At a lower wage than if they had been non-Union.

[GravitySucks]

It's interesting how people defend languages to the point that the government is compelled to accommodate "diversity" in language. It would be more helpful to promote integration of language so we don't have hundreds of the fucking things worldwide. The closer we get to a global single language, i.e. English, the better. The left used to agree, they used to promote bullshit like Esperanto. Now they don't. Wonder what happened?

To hell with that, tell me more about these naked pagans.

[SciFiAuthor]

What if that language were Chinese or (gasp) French?

Chinese is too hard and French is icky.

[TigerLily]

Th unions in California lobbied for a raise in the minimum wage and as soon as it was passed they asked for an exemption. http://www.cnbc.com/2015/07/30/la-union-wants-to-be-exempt-from-15-minimum-wage.html

They want to be able to negotiate contracts based on lowest cost. Who are they looking out for?

I don't have time to research but I have never seen a union minimum wage close to federal minimum wage especially if benefits are calculated in. 

I have to leave the sandbox to the big boys. Thanks for letting me play

[21st Century Man]

What if that language were Chinese or (gasp) French?

Chinese would never become the world language.  It's completely different from 3/4 of the world's languages.  Arabic has a better chance of becoming the world language than Chinese.  As for French, LOL, they lost their chance about 100 years ago.  English is spoken all over the world and really has no competition.

[21st Century Man]

It's interesting how people defend languages to the point that the government is compelled to accommodate "diversity" in language. It would be more helpful to promote integration of language so we don't have hundreds of the fucking things worldwide. The closer we get to a global single language, i.e. English, the better. The left used to agree, they used to promote bullshit like Esperanto. Now they don't. Wonder what happened?

Whenever, I hear Esperanto mentioned, I think of that movie Shatner did in the 60's. Incubus.

[TigerLily]

Chinese would never become the world language.  It's completely different from 3/4 of the world's languages.  Arabic has a better chance of becoming the world language.  As for French, LOL, they lost their chance about 100 years ago.  English is spoken all over the world and really has no competition.

C'est vrai. Adieu mes amis

[SciFiAuthor]

Whenever, I hear Esperanto mentioned, I think of that movie Shatner did in the 60's. Incubus.

Outside of Star Trek, Shatner's movies are just . . . well . . . not sure what they are. Remember the one when spiders took over the town?

[GravitySucks]

This would have been a better narrative for Trump, but it is hard when Tweets are limited to 140 characters. I really hope he starts listening to people with some PR skills.

Race driven association is what is wrong with the legal system

http://spectator.org/trump-is-right-the-shame-of-paul-ryan-and-mitch-mcconnell/

[GravitySucks]

Outside of Star Trek, Shatner's movies are just . . . well . . . not sure what they are. Remember the one when spiders took over the town?

Kingdom of the Spiders - 1977. Not a very good year for him.

[Lt.Uhura]

[attachment id=1 msg=831105]


I see Art has finally come to his senses re Trump.  Meanwhile the GOP damage control simply can't keep up with Trump's daily barrage of verbal insults and offenses. An RNC open/contested convention is looking more like a reality every day.

[21st Century Man]

C'est vrai. Adieu mes amis

Ciao! 

[ItsOver]

Outside of Star Trek, Shatner's movies are just . . . well . . . not sure what they are...

Smoked ham, anyone?

[Lt.Uhura]

http://heavy.com/news/2016/06/donald-trump-republican-convention-delegate-revolt-steal-nomination-contested-ted-cruz-unbind-unbound/

[21st Century Man]

Kingdom of the Spiders - 1977. Not a very good year for him.

What a cheesy film! LOL  I think that was made shortly after The Devil's Rain, another winner.  His career started off well enough with significant parts in The Brothers Karamazov, Judgement At Nuremburg and generally good roles in Alfred Hitchcock Presents, Thriller and The Twilight Zone. He really hit bottom in the 70's though.  I think he was living in a camper at one point.

[Value Of Pi]

At least someone was paying attention. But I will be more impressed if you can discuss British politics with SV

Concerning the current deficit, historical context is helpful

The United States public debt as a percentage of GDP reached its highest level during Harry Truman's first presidential term, during and after World War II. Public debt as a percentage of GDP fell rapidly in the post-World War II period, and reached a low in 1974 under President Richard Nixon.Debt as a share of GDP has consistently increased since then, except during the terms of presidents Jimmy Carter and Bill Clinton. Public debt rose during the 1980s, as President Reagan cut tax rates and increased military spending. It fell during the 1990s, due to decreased military spending, increased taxes and the 1990s boom. Public debt rose sharply in the wake of the 2007â€"08 financial crisis and the resulting significant tax revenue declines and spending increases. However, public debt as a share of GDP has stabilized since then, and is projected to decline through the 2010s. -Wikipedia

The only current presidential candidate with a balanced budget plan is Hillary Clinton

Good job of providing a more balanced picture of the size of our federal debt. Another factor that has to be considered is the extremely low interest rate environment that the fed has thoughtfully arranged. This saves the Federal government and the taxpayers billions of dollars every year in interest payments, Put another way, the size of the debt can't be considered without also considering the cost of maintaining the debt and its effect on the government's ability to fund necessary programs and expenditures year after year.

The downside of the low-interest environment is how it hurts savers. Also, it doesn't begin to make up for the inflation in the real estate market. A low-interest mortgage doesn't help much when it doesn't enable so many in the middle class to afford even a modest home in many areas of the country. What's happened to the cost of living relative to income is a very big problem, from real estate to education to healthcare to the food you put on the table.

I have yet to hear a workable economic plan from any candidate or party that effectively addresses all major facets of our current problems  (also accounting for and accommodating trends like the move to automation and the elimination or reduction of many existing job categories). Simplistic slogans and plans like "Reduce the government" and "Reform the tax code" don't have much value unless there is also an overarching plan that integrates these initiatives and can realistically achieve the goals of a revitalized economy and improved quality of life for the American people.

Again, thanks for the added perspective, often missing from discussions about the debt.