Midnight In The Desert

[vansmythe]

Is MITD still going I haven't kept up? The problem with it since it started even with Art at the helm was the substandard guests and callers compared to the glory days of C2C.  Maybe if it makes it through Jan. it might survive or maybe it's already dead except for the final curtain call, who knows? Anyway hope Art is doing alright, maybe he can get the Oregon militia members to come guard his ranch so he can start up again. And I feel kind of sorry for the woman host who has to put up with all the crank calls from unfunny pathetic losers.

[Value Of Pi]

Not necessarily the kill shot, because the shot by which Oswald accidentally connected to JFK's neck might've turned out fatal even the head shot from Hickey had never happened.  But blowing the prez's brains out is embarrassing no matter how you look at it.

There've been repeated threats to abolish the Secret Service or at least take away from it responsibility for presidential family security.  All agencies seek to survive intact, and adverse publicity such as this is something they'd do anything to squelch.

Finally. I think this is the first thing I asked you, whether the whole coverup would have been about protecting the Secret Service. This is far out, man. Really far out.

So far, the list of entities alleged to be behind either the killing of JFK or the coverup includes the Russians, the Cubans, the Mafia, the CIA, LBJ and I'm sure, others I've forgotten. But the Secret Service, the guys pledged on their very souls to protect the president, the guys that practically were a part of the family? They killed him, accidentally or not, and then lied about it, somehow manipulating the whole government to buy into Oswald?

You must be putting me on. And if you're not, why are you not calling a radio show with this, even Heather? This is great stuff. If I knew you were going to call, I'd even listen to Heather. She would screw up her end of the conversation, I'm sure, but I'd listen anyway.

[Dr. MD MD]

Finally. I think this is the first thing I asked you, whether the whole coverup would have been about protecting the Secret Service. This is far out, man. Really far out.

So far, the list of entities alleged to be behind either the killing of JFK or the coverup includes the Russians, the Cubans, the Mafia, the CIA, LBJ and I'm sure, others I've forgotten. But the Secret Service, the guys pledged on their very souls to protect the president, the guys that practically were a part of the family? They killed him, accidentally or not, and then lied about it, somehow manipulating the whole government to buy into Oswald?

You must be putting me on. And if you're not, why are you not calling a radio show with this, even Heather? This is great stuff. If I knew you were going to call, I'd even listen to Heather. She would screw up her end of the conversation, I'm sure, but I'd listen anyway.

Well, the head of the secret service was clearly in on it because you can see a confused agent being waved back off the post he should've been at, on the back of the president's car, as they were about to start the parade route. Instead there were no agents on the back of the car or anywhere where they could make an effective difference for that matter. Also, there were a bunch of windows open along the route and the driver clearly slows down, turns around to see if Kennedy is dead and when he sees that he's not he outright stops the car so the head shot can be delivered. Yeah, they were really on top of it that day. No way they could've been involved   :

[Uncle Duke]

I've heard rumors that the guy wasn't an Indian but of Italian descent but not sure if that rumor was true.

Quite true.  Can't remember his real name, but it would not have sounded out of place on one of George Knapp's true crime, mafia shows.

[Inglorious Bitch]

Quite true.  Can't remember his real name, but it would not have sounded out of place on one of George Knapp's true crime, mafia shows.

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Iron_Eyes_Cody

Iron Eyes Cody (born Espera Oscar de Corti April 3, 1904 â€" January 4, 1999) was an American actor. He portrayed Native Americans in Hollywood films.[1] He also played an Indian shedding a tear about litter in one of the country's most well-known television PSAs, "Keep America Beautiful".[2] In 1996, Cody's half-sister said that he was actually of Italian ancestry, but he denied it

[K_Dubb]

Really?  Weird.  It didn't strike me as either funny or "innocent."  I think I was about 8 the last time I found potty-style humor amusing, and by about 10 I realized that my time and attention are too valuable to waste on puerile idiocy.  It struck me as wicked, not innocent; deliberately endeavoring to ruin a show like that and waste every listener's time on lies and the same vapid prank.

But I suppose that Rush Limbaugh and Donald Trump's stellar successes prove that an alarming percentage of American males possess the depth and conscience of Ted Bundy.

It occurs to me that we're a fallen empire.  America seems now to largely consist of infantile simpletons with selfish and cruel streaks a mile wide.  I guess we deserve this collapse into a food service economy, and to let someone else have a go at excellence, innovation and integrity for a change.  But that's not a change I can cheer.

If you will deign to hear from this infantile simpleton I'd just suggest that, if malice was the intent, they could have said far worse.

While I wouldn't call it wicked, you're right, there is a certain "gotcha" to a prank.  It is a test that can only be passed with good humor.  I hope she figures it out.

[Value Of Pi]

Well, the head of the secret service was clearly in on it because you can see a confused agent being waved back off the post he should've been at, on the back of the president's car, as they were about to start the parade route. Instead there were no agents on the back of the car or anywhere where they could make an effective difference for that matter. Also, there were a bunch of windows open along the route and the driver clearly slows down, turns around to see if Kennedy is dead and when he sees that he's not he outright stops the car so the head shot can be delivered. Yeah, they were really on top of it that day. No way they could've been involved   :

Panel discussion! You and Robert. One of you will have to go to Heather's place because it would be tough to do a three-way on the phone (although, from what I've heard... no never mind). One of you will need to be entrusted with her secret location. Be aware, this information is more sensitive than the true nature of the assassination conspiracy. Discretion must be total.

[VtaGeezer]

This video is a little longer and that's too bad because there's only one really good part--George Bush says that the Warren Commission report will "always be the final determination of the truth of this incident because Gerald Ford put his name on it and Gerald Ford could always be trusted."

FUCK YOU.

Well, that's certainly conclusive, isn't it.  Case closed.  Still have keyboard Tourette's, I see. But we all have different ways of reliving our youth.

[Rix Gins]

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Iron_Eyes_Cody

Iron Eyes Cody (born Espera Oscar de Corti April 3, 1904 â€" January 4, 1999) was an American actor. He portrayed Native Americans in Hollywood films.[1] He also played an Indian shedding a tear about litter in one of the country's most well-known television PSAs, "Keep America Beautiful".[2] In 1996, Cody's half-sister said that he was actually of Italian ancestry, but he denied it

Back when I used to check books out of a library, I checked one out about Iron Eye's life.  The only thing I can remember about it was that Cody and a group of fellow Indian actors were the guest of William Randolph Hearst, at Hearst Castle.  They were taken into the movie theater to watch a movie but when the lights were dimmed, they all fell asleep.

[Mind Flayer Monk]

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Iron_Eyes_Cody

Iron Eyes Cody (born Espera Oscar de Corti April 3, 1904 â€" January 4, 1999) was an American actor. He portrayed Native Americans in Hollywood films.[1] He also played an Indian shedding a tear about litter in one of the country's most well-known television PSAs, "Keep America Beautiful".[2] In 1996, Cody's half-sister said that he was actually of Italian ancestry, but he denied it

There was a Sopranos episode where Christopher threatened to expose Iron Eyes in retaliation for some Native Americans protesting Columbus Day.

http://flavorwire.com/419605/revisiting-the-columbus-day-sopranos-episode-that-everyone-hated

[VtaGeezer]

Well, the head of the secret service was clearly in on it because you can see a confused agent being waved back off the post he should've been at, on the back of the president's car, as they were about to start the parade route. Instead there were no agents on the back of the car or anywhere where they could make an effective difference for that matter. Also, there were a bunch of windows open along the route and the driver clearly slows down, turns around to see if Kennedy is dead and when he sees that he's not he outright stops the car so the head shot can be delivered. Yeah, they were really on top of it that day. No way they could've been involved   :

One of the few plausible stories was that a SS agent a couple cars back stood up in the back seat with an M1 or M16 after the first shot and fired while losing his balance, and it was the head shot.  There was a TV documentary that was very convincing but I agree that the SS wouldn't have the influence to suppress the story.  I think the Warren Commission suppressed a lot but it was to protect incompetence not cover up conspiracy. Its almost certain that Ruby wasn't acting out of love for JFK.  I was in HS in '63 and was aware of  the burning hatred of a lot of Republicans toward Kennedy that was much like they have have now for Obama.  The reports of celebrations in the South when the news hit are buried now.  The nutty stuff  we're getting now from a new crop of professional conspiracy sellers, after all the key witnesses and govt investigators are long dead and can't challenge, is just exploiting the market of the conspiracy-hungry. 

[Robert]

Finally. I think this is the first thing I asked you, whether the whole coverup would have been about protecting the Secret Service. This is far out, man. Really far out.

So far, the list of entities alleged to be behind either the killing of JFK or the coverup includes the Russians, the Cubans, the Mafia, the CIA, LBJ and I'm sure, others I've forgotten. But the Secret Service, the guys pledged on their very souls to protect the president, the guys that practically were a part of the family? They killed him, accidentally or not, and then lied about it, somehow manipulating the whole government to buy into Oswald?

You must be putting me on. And if you're not, why are you not calling a radio show with this, even Heather? This is great stuff. If I knew you were going to call, I'd even listen to Heather. She would screw up her end of the conversation, I'm sure, but I'd listen anyway.

You're getting this from me as news to you, but I'm not breaking any new ground.  Ask the experts.  Howard Donahue's dead, I don't know if Bonar Menninger's still around, but Colin McLaren is; they'd be the ones to interview on the subject of the accidental hit by Hickey.  James Reston, author of The Lone Star and The Accidental Victim, would be the one to interview about who Oswald's real target was.

Getting people to "buy into Oswald" isn't as big a deal as you might make it seem, because Oswald was trying to kill somebody in that car, and he didn't much care if somebody else took a bullet in the process.

[Robert]

Well, the head of the secret service was clearly in on it because you can see a confused agent being waved back off the post he should've been at, on the back of the president's car, as they were about to start the parade route. Instead there were no agents on the back of the car or anywhere where they could make an effective difference for that matter. Also, there were a bunch of windows open along the route and the driver clearly slows down, turns around to see if Kennedy is dead and when he sees that he's not he outright stops the car so the head shot can be delivered. Yeah, they were really on top of it that day. No way they could've been involved   :

I don't think they were involved in anything before the shooting.  It's just that Hickey was the only one who wasn't hung over!

If you want to discuss things that seem outright stupid, Lyndon Johnson's being in the same motorcade, just 2 cars behind Kennedy & Connally, stands out as something they'd never do today.  As to the driver's action, it's obvious they never practiced a situation like that, so he reacted as drivers generally would in an emergency, by slowing down & stopping.  Bang!  What happened, blow a tire?  Remember, even Mr. Bell said he couldn't be sure whether it was a gunshot or firework, but he hit the dirt -- something he surely would not have done had he not been primed by the preceding events.

[Robert]

Panel discussion! You and Robert.

Why us?  Don't you think MITD could get somebody who was more directly involved in investigating these things?  I've never even been to Dallas!  (Houston, yes.)

[Dr. MD MD]

One of the few plausible stories was that a SS agent a couple cars back stood up in the back seat with an M1 or M16 after the first shot and fired while losing his balance, and it was the head shot.  There was a TV documentary that was very convincing but I agree that the SS wouldn't have the influence to suppress the story.  I think the Warren Commission suppressed a lot but it was to protect incompetence not cover up conspiracy. Its almost certain that Ruby wasn't acting out of love for JFK.  I was in HS in '63 and was aware of  the burning hatred of a lot of Republicans toward Kennedy that was much like they have have now for Obama.  The reports of celebrations in the South when the news hit are buried now.  The nutty stuff  we're getting now from a new crop of professional conspiracy sellers, after all the key witnesses and govt investigators are long dead and can't challenge, is just exploiting the market of the conspiracy-hungry.

From everything I've read and seen on the subject I'd say that it's actually one of the least plausible theories that the SS was involved to the degree of being the shooters but I have heard those theories too. Their job seemed to be only to set the stage for the assassins. I'd also say that the Warren Commission left out a lot of credible, relevant witnesses and evidence in this regard and that Ruby was a straight up mob associate with most likely indifferent feelings about Kennedy. The amount of incompetence we're asked to accept about that day is nuttier than the conspiracy theories to me, diverse though they may be. There's no unified theory of physics yet but I still believe in that too 

[dan7800]

There was a Sopranos episode where Christopher threatened to expose Iron Eyes in retaliation for some Native Americans protesting Columbus Day.

http://flavorwire.com/419605/revisiting-the-columbus-day-sopranos-episode-that-everyone-hated

It was Ralphie

[Dr. MD MD]

I don't think they were involved in anything before the shooting.  It's just that Hickey was the only one who wasn't hung over!

If you want to discuss things that seem outright stupid, Lyndon Johnson's being in the same motorcade, just 2 cars behind Kennedy & Connally, stands out as something they'd never do today.  As to the driver's action, it's obvious they never practiced a situation like that, so he reacted as drivers generally would in an emergency, by slowing down & stopping.  Bang!  What happened, blow a tire?  Remember, even Mr. Bell said he couldn't be sure whether it was a gunshot or firework, but he hit the dirt -- something he surely would not have done had he not been primed by the preceding events.

I actually believe they trained for just such an event. It was their job, after all. For some mysterious reason that day none of the protocols were followed. D'oh! 

[Robert]

One of the few plausible stories was that a SS agent a couple cars back stood up in the back seat with an M1 or M16

AR-15, which Hickey hadn't had much experience with.

after the first shot and fired while losing his balance, and it was the head shot.  There was a TV documentary that was very convincing but I agree that the SS wouldn't have the influence to suppress the story.

Why not?  Who would've been in position to reveal it who would've wanted to?

What about all these stories now of police abusing, even killing, people, that come out only because someone independent of them had video?  In this case neither the Nix nor the Zapruder film had Hickey in frame at the critical time.

[Robert]

I actually believe they trained for just such an event. It was their job, after all.

You obviously have more trust in gov't procedures than I do.

[Dr. MD MD]

You obviously have more trust in gov't procedures than I do.

I know enough about them to know that not much about that scene would've been acceptable to actual security, even back then.

[Chronaut]

If you will deign to hear from this infantile simpleton I'd just suggest that, if malice was the intent, they could have said far worse.

While I wouldn't call it wicked, you're right, there is a certain "gotcha" to a prank.  It is a test that can only be passed with good humor.  I hope she figures it out.

Honestly I think you're projecting your own light-hearted view of it onto an undeserving mob.  A prank is one thing; an entire night of the same vapid prank is something else entirely - heckling, harassment, something along those lines.  Not fun on the receiving end certainly.

I don't remember, ever, Art being subjected to that kind of "test/hazing."  I also don't think he would've been amused.  I've been trying to imagine how he would've dealt with it, and I think he would've either gotten very curt and disconnected people who sounded like dicks before they could even get started, or he would've stopped taking open lines and launched into a monologue.  Probably both, in that order.

But it wasn't a blithe attempt at "bonding with the host," as you seem to think.  It was an attack on the show, and a bullying onslaught aimed at disrespecting Heather and making her feel even more unwelcome than she must already feel.  It seems to me that the same pieces of crap who soiled Art's thread are taking out their juvenile ire on her now that he's untrollable, which is totally shitty, ignorant, and unfair, because the only thing she's guilty of, is trying to keep the show alive long enough for Art to come back on the air (if he even wants to at this point).

[Value Of Pi]

Why us?  Don't you think MITD could get somebody who was more directly involved in investigating these things?  I've never even been to Dallas!  (Houston, yes.)

I doubt that they could at this point. Especially since "they" is likely just one person now -- and that person is Heather "Never heard of her" Wade. Even if she succeeded, you guys would probably be more interesting and palatable to listen to. Conspiracy experts and authors tend to be overfilled cans of half-baked factoids and when an inexperienced questioner opens the lid it all comes flying out in an endless flood. I'd rather hear from you guys.

[DeltaBravo]

Really?  Weird.  It didn't strike me as either funny or "innocent."  I think I was about 8 the last time I found potty-style humor amusing, and by about 10 I realized that my time and attention are too valuable to waste on puerile idiocy.  It struck me as wicked, not innocent; deliberately endeavoring to ruin a show like that and waste every listener's time on lies and the same vapid prank.

But I suppose that Rush Limbaugh and Donald Trump's stellar successes prove that an alarming percentage of American males possess the depth and conscience of Ted Bundy.

It occurs to me that we're a fallen empire.  America seems now to largely consist of infantile simpletons with selfish and cruel streaks a mile wide.  I guess we deserve this collapse into a food service economy, and to let someone else have a go at excellence, innovation and integrity for a change.  But that's not a change I can cheer.

Pinko!

[DeltaBravo]

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=0OnpkDWbeJs

[Robert]

I know enough about them to know that not much about that scene would've been acceptable to actual security, even back then.

Yeah, actual security, not gov't work!

[Value Of Pi]

From everything I've read and seen on the subject I'd say that it's actually one of the least plausible theories that the SS was involved to the degree of being the shooters but I have heard those theories too. Their job seemed to be only to set the stage for the assassins. I'd also say that the Warren Commission left out a lot of credible, relevant witnesses and evidence in this regard and that Ruby was a straight up mob associate with most likely indifferent feelings about Kennedy. The amount of incompetence we're asked to accept about that day is nuttier than the conspiracy theories to me, diverse though they may be. There's no unified theory of physics yet but I still believe in that too 

I, on the other hand, am a great believer in incompetence. Massive FUBAR incompetence. I've experienced it and can easily believe that it could get to the level it did in Dallas.

Giant conspiracy theories, in contrast, require the exact opposite kind of belief. You have to accept that a large number of people in various roles are competent enough, coordinated enough and reliable enough to pull off a complex operation like Dallas and the coverup that would need to follow. With no significant errors that would compromise the conspiracy.

This is one thing that forever divides conspiracy believers from non-believers.

[Robert]

I doubt that they could at this point. Especially since "they" is likely just one person now -- and that person is Heather "Never heard of her" Wade.

Somehow Bronwyn's managed on WFMU for years.

Even if she succeeded, you guys would probably be more interesting and palatable to listen to. Conspiracy experts and authors tend to be overfilled cans of half-baked factoids and when an inexperienced questioner opens the lid it all comes flying out in an endless flood. I'd rather hear from you guys.

Check out the bios of James Reston & Colin McLaren.  I don't think they're like that.

[Dr. MD MD]

I, on the other hand, am a great believer in incompetence. Massive FUBAR incompetence. I've experienced it and can easily believe that it could get to the level it did in Dallas.

Giant conspiracy theories, in contrast, require the exact opposite kind of belief. You have to accept that a large number of people in various roles are competent enough, coordinated enough and reliable enough to pull off a complex operation like Dallas and the coverup that would need to follow. With no significant errors that would compromise the conspiracy.

This is one thing that forever divides conspiracy believers from non-believers.

It's an easy cop out. When presented with a deluge of logical inconsistencies a lot of people always want to fall back on massive incompetence. Every other day they're getting it right, by the book but on these big days EVERYONE shits the bed?! Nah! You'll have to do better. And BTW, all that's needed to pull a successful conspiracy like this off is money, power and compartmentalization. I'd say the likely players had easy access to all three. However, there were MANY significant errors and things that didn't go down exactly as planned. Hence the conspiracy theories that followed from intelligent or at least alert people noticing them.

[GravitySucks]

Should be a good show Monday

[Dr. MD MD]

Yeah, actual security, not gov't work!

Oh sure. The US had never had an assassinated president before him so they were totally unprepared, right?