20150819 - Bill Birnes and Jim Sanders - Live Chat Thread

[ShayP]

it's so sad that people have so much faith in an absolutely corrupted system.  Our government and media are one and the same animal.

I have the same frustration.  Media (news/journalism) used to be presented with facts where one could make up their own mind on those facts.  Those facts are now absent and the information is given/marketed/distorted based on what will influence one's belief, opinion, or social status. Now...we are presented with distractions and tabloid stories.  No more truth.

Even with clear knowledge and evidence, people's overall faith* (brainwashing) will make them believe whatever is spoonfed to them.  The saying.."Time heals all wounds"..also applies to 'forgetting' after all these years.  The new interpretation of that phrase is "Deniability and ignorance heal all wounds".

*- my use of 'faith' wasn't meant to assume or apply religion.  It could apply wholey, but merely applies to one's faith in whatever they are told, taught, or believe in general, leading to a resistance of other possibilities (/brainwashing) 

[Lilith]

did you see the twa documentary that came out a couple years ago?  it's on netflix, and i recommend it.

My daughter was over last night for coffee, so I didn't catch my nap, and missed both MITD and OSOM.  Catching up now, and will watch this after.  Praise MV!!

[WhiteCrow]

I'm convinced of two things:

Somebody blew up or shot down that plane.

We have no clue who.

Thank you, my thoughts exactly,  with the addition,  Don't know what to make of the missile video, except to ask, is it like the Ford Model T of missiles? Appeared to be going really slow and jerky.

[ZomZom]

Really old...it could have happened by accident, but how after all these years without killing or imprisioning all the military and all the investigators, feds, local, Coast Guard and civilians who assisted is just crazy impossible after all these years?!  Why is it that we can't ever accept the simple answer which most likely is the truth? Are people so much in need of money from books etc or so misguided that they think every single person is so weak that they can be scared, bribed etc...so sick of the gov't always being against us and responsible for everything. There are some very good and honest people in law enforcement, the military and in everyday life that would open their mouths to tell the truth. Just saying.

^^^ This, this, a thousand times this.  I'm only into the start of the second hour of the archive but I can't wait to say this.  It's one thing to have no skeptical counterpoint when a paranormal guest is presenting, but to have this narrative which brings into doubt the fundamental credibility of our government without representatives of the Navy, FBI, FAA or any other point of view is irresponsible.

[ziznak]

I caught like the first 50 mins or so before work.  interesting topic but.... well lets just pull out all the razors and try each one??

Occam's razor: When faced with competing hypotheses, select the one that makes the fewest assumptions. Do not multiply entities without necessity.

Hanlon's razor: Never attribute to malice that which can be adequately explained by stupidity.[2]

Hume's razor: "If the cause, assigned for any effect, be not sufficient to produce it, we must either reject that cause, or add to it such qualities as will give it a just proportion to the effect."[3][4]

Hitchens's razor: The burden of proof or onus in a debate lies with the claim-maker, and if he or she does not meet it, the opponent does not need to argue against the unfounded claim.

Newton's flaming laser sword (or Alder's razor): If something cannot be settled by experiment or observation then it is not worthy of debate.

Rand's razor: Concepts are not to be multiplied beyond necessityâ€"the corollary of which is: nor are they to be integrated in disregard of necessity

*these razors came from Wikipedia so I'm not sure how sharp they all are

[ziznak]

did you see the twa documentary that came out a couple years ago?  it's on netflix, and i recommend it.

I'm a HUGE doc hound so I will most likely be pulling this one down when I get back to the compound.

[SciFiAuthor]

^^^ This, this, a thousand times this.  I'm only into the start of the second hour of the archive but I can't wait to say this.  It's one thing to have no skeptical counterpoint when a paranormal guest is presenting, but to have this narrative which brings into doubt the fundamental credibility of our government without representatives of the Navy, FBI, FAA or any other point of view is irresponsible.

There also exists the phenomenon of collective stupidity where seemingly obvious realities are missed through a chain of mistakes that no one person has the ability to catch before it's too late. It's especially bad in government, see the Mars Climate Orbiter where a failure between two groups of engineers to recognize the difference between metric and imperial measurement resulted in a $125 million dollar failure of a spacecraft. Always question government conclusions. Individually they may be great and competent people, but put together not so much.

[Mebee]

https://youtu.be/FeUZi5itxc0

So.... where is the signature of an explosion at the top end of that trail?

[Robert]

I fell asleep before the end of the 1st hour.  Art Bell's return has given me more reason to stay up late, but doing so some nights leaves me sleepier on others.

I never saw the link to the supposed missile video referred to in cx w TWA 800.  I wish these things were easier to find in a hurry at artbell.com when referenced on the show.

I do remember that when it happened, while people were speculating about a bomb, and 1 or more witnesses thought they saw a rocket, someone phoned in to a radio show w a remark I thought at the time was brilliant, & which I believe turned out to be the correct explanation: that it would look like a missile if an aerosol of leaking fuel were trailing behind the aircraft, had ignited, and its flame front followed the trail & caught up to the leaking aircraft.  This would mean that the electric fault later cited as the ignition source was not the ignition source.

[Mebee]

I have seen anti aircraft missiles, SAM's being fired and they are a hell of a lot faster...like 1-2000 plus mph.

Yes. That appears to be a plane contrail. Moving too slow to be a rocket/missile.

[Dyna-X]

^^^ This, this, a thousand times this.  I'm only into the start of the second hour of the archive but I can't wait to say this.  It's one thing to have no skeptical counterpoint when a paranormal guest is presenting, but to have this narrative which brings into doubt the fundamental credibility of our government without representatives of the Navy, FBI, FAA or any other point of view is irresponsible.

The "official narrative" which has been told to us for the last 19 years is the government counterpoint.  We now live in a nation, while albeit a great one with a fair amount of relative freedom, has an out of control media that is a puppet of the national security apparatus.  They can report freely on things that don't matter, but when push comes to shove the national security state always wins.  It hurts really bad when this is what , but what it is - is what it is. How corrupt is it? They have hired folks in online forums that are paid to be sock puppets to steer discussions, argue, troll or otherwise distract to keep folks off these topics.

This is not tinfoil thinking:
http://www.theguardian.com/technology/2011/mar/17/us-spy-operation-social-networks   
https://www.contributoria.com/issue/2014-03/52ceefe277e4f13f4300001d
https://books.google.com/books?id=VNu-g9i4OQAC&pg=PA192&lpg=PA192&dq=government+hired+sock+puppets+online+forums&source=bl&ots=xWL6ZyLTrT&sig=k7aMRAeLkmhjmMsYj2dZW1bcnSQ&hl=en&sa=X&ved=0CD8Q6AEwBWoVChMImuXAwYG4xwIV1DaICh3LRALu#v=onepage&q=government%20hired%20sock%20puppets%20online%20forums&f=false

So the "offical narrative" holds 19 years, they have their opposition already online - they have the upper hand already, so what if a show is made without an official being invited to the table?

[Mebee]

Here is a Delta II Rocket Launch launch from Vandenberg as a comparison.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=WnQVCld62z8

An anti-aircraft missile would be much quicker than that.

[Kolchak]

Hitchens's razor: The burden of proof or onus in a debate lies with the claim-maker, and if he or she does not meet it, the opponent does not need to argue against the unfounded claim.

*these razors came from Wikipedia so I'm not sure how sharp they all are

I think wikipedia failed on this one. Philosophic burden of proof is always on the claim-maker. If you believe that burden is met, they have demonstrated their case. There wouldn't be a need to argue against it.

What Hitchens said was "that which can be asserted without evidence can be dismissed without evidence." It's an axiom that echoes the latin phrase "quod gratis asseritur, gratis negatur."

That said, I have no idea what happened to this plane. Occam's razor would, indeed, lead me to err on the side of fuel tank explosion rather than shadowy coverup. Then again, I've never been much for pareidolia.

[Mebee]

"What’s fascinating about this case is not whether Mr. Sanders is right or wrong (though I think he’s mostly right). It’s how the media exercises self-censorship."
http://observer.com/2000/02/twa-flight-800-skeptics-paying-a-heavy-price/

Except you need to remember that that is how he is characterizing what happened. Conspiracy theorists have a  way of spinning everything that happens into support of their theory.

[Mebee]

They have hired folks in online forums that are paid to be sock puppets to steer discussions, argue, troll or otherwise distract to keep folks off these topics.

You mean, that is just another layer in the conspiracy THEORY. It was invented as a way to automatically discount the statements of anyone speaking out against the theory.  If you think conspiracy theorists don't conspire to promote their own theories, you're a fool.

[ziznak]

They have hired folks in online forums that are paid to be sock puppets to steer discussions, argue, troll or otherwise distract to keep folks off these topics.

Release the "Dave-bots!!"  or better yet... dig up one of those "falkie-bots!"

[Uncle Duke]

So.... where is the signature of an explosion at the top end of that trail?

I have no idea what this video shows, but it does not look like the standard USN ship-to-air missile, ironically named the Standard Missile.  I am curious what the tall structure to the right of the video is, and if it can be matched to such a structure (lighthouse, for example) on Long Island?

If I was to believe Flt 800 was shot down with a missile, my money would be on a terrorist lanched MANPAD (Stinger, SA-7, SA-16, Blowpipe etc).  There have been at least a half dozen commercial/non-military a/c shot down in this manner since the 70s (Rhodesia, Angola, Georgia etc), and there was also the well publicized attempt to take down the Israeli airliner in Kenya with MANPADs maybe five years after TWA 800 was lost.

[Mebee]

I have no idea what this video shows, but it does not look like the standard USN ship-to-air missile, ironically named the Standard Missile.  I am curious what the tall structure to the right of the video is, and if it can be matched to such a structure (lighthouse, for example) on Long Island?

If I was to believe Flt 800 was shot down with a missile, my money would be on a terrorist lanched MANPAD (Stinger, SA-7, SA-16, Blowpipe etc).  There have been at least a half dozen commercial/non-military a/c shot down in this manner since the 70s (Rhodesia, Angola, Georgia etc), and there was also the well publicized attempt to take down the Israeli airliner in Kenya with MANPADs maybe five years after TWA 800 was lost.

If I'm correct in what I think was said on the show, the vid is purported to show a second missile which was fired to take out the first missile, which was accidentally fired at the plane. Their story made little sense to me. By the time it was realized that a missile was headed at the wrong target, it would already have reached that target. The flight time would have been just a few seconds.

ALSO, the idea that the trail in the vid shows something headed "UP" is a bit of a fallacy. A contrail from a plane flying toward you from the horizon appears to be pointing "UP", but isn't really. It's an optical illusion.

They also say the vids shows a plane falling down in flames. I have no idea where they see that. The trail becomes lit up in the sunset, near the end. LOTS of wishful thinking taking place with those guys, I think.

[FightTheFuture]

They seem to be making the argument that it was a United States Navy platform that shot that plane down. I`m here to tell you, that is an absolute impossibility. It just could NOT have happened ...for a thousand different reasons. It`s completely absurd and, frankly, insulting that they would even attempt to construct such a bizarre scenario.

[Uncle Duke]

If I'm correct in what I think was said on the show, the vid is purported to show a second missile which was fired to take out the first missile, which was accidentally fired at the plane. Their story made little sense to me. By the time it was realized that a missile was headed at the wrong target, it would already have reached that target. The flight time would have been just a few seconds.

ALSO, the idea that the trail in the vid shows something headed "UP" is a bit of a fallacy. A contrail from a plane flying toward you from the horizon appears to be pointing "UP", but isn't really. It's an optical illusion.

They also say the vids shows a plane falling down in flames. I have no idea where they see that. The trail becomes lit up in the sunset, near the end. LOTS of wishful thinking taking place with those guys, I think.

Yes, the same thing happened a few years back off the coast of CA, a contrail mistaken for a missile.

As I noted last night, Sanders' story about this mishap has changed over the years, but his first USN missile version involved a terrorist flown biz jet that was supposedly going to be flown into an airliner in a suicide attack.  Now the biz jet is out, and the drone (Firebee maybe?) was the intended target.  So what happened to the terrorists and their biz jet?

[ziznak]

They seem to be making the argument that it was a United States Navy platform that shot that plane down. I`m here to tell you, that is an absolute impossibility. It just could NOT have happened ...for a thousand different reasons. It`s completely absurd and, frankly, insulting that they would even attempt to construct such a bizarre scenario.

I hear ya... would the navy even dial in on such an aircraft with the intention being simply to check targeting systems??  Kinda like how Snipers may scope in on various objects in an area?  Could this have been something like that but then accidentally somehow something (FIRE!) was initiated? 

Ah man it still seems like it's too complicated for everything to fall into place for the scenario painted.

[Uncle Duke]

They seem to be making the argument that it was a United States Navy platform that shot that plane down. I`m here to tell you, that is an absolute impossibility. It just could NOT have happened ...for a thousand different reasons. It`s completely absurd and, frankly, insulting that they would even attempt to construct such a bizarre scenario.

Of course it is insulting, but the story is even stupider when you consider the shoot down was allegedly accomplished with a weapon (underwater launched SAM) that doesn't even exist today. 

[FightTheFuture]

I hear ya... would the navy even dial in on such an aircraft with the intention being simply to check targeting systems??  Kinda like how Snipers may scope in on various objects in an area?  Could this have been something like that but then accidentally somehow something (FIRE!) was initiated? 

Ah man it still seems like it's too complicated for everything to fall into place for the scenario painted.

Couple of things. First, Navy ships do not ever have live birds on board when they are not on deployment. In other words, while out on a routine training and/or operations type of underway period. 

Second; Yes, fire control operators will frequently passively track contacts, but they never activate FC radar which is necessary to get accurate FC solutions in order to shoot a bird.

Third; there are several steps that need to take place in order to launch. It is impossible for a bird to "just short circuit/accidentally/spontaneously, etc"  launch.

I could on and on and on. But you get the picture.

[chefist]

Couple of things. First, Navy ships do not ever have live birds on board when they are not on deployment. In other words, while out on a routine training and/or operations type of underway period. 

Second; Yes, fire control operators will frequently passively track contacts, but they never activate FC radar which is necessary to get accurate FC solutions in order to shoot a bird.

Third; there are several steps that need to take place in order to launch. It is impossible for a bird to "just short circuit/accidentally/spontaneously, etc"  launch.

I could on and on and on. But you get the picture.

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Iran_Air_Flight_655

If a mistake like this happened, it would be impossible to cover up IMO....especially here off the East Coast...

[FightTheFuture]

Of course it is insulting, but the story is even stupider when you consider the shoot down was allegedly accomplished with a weapon (underwater launched SAM) that doesn't even exist today.

Yes it is. I never heard the part where they allege it was a submerged sub that took it out. Like I said before, only one sub in the world has the capability to launch a SAM (the old Soviet -- now Russian -- Kilo class D/E sub), but it must surface first.

[FightTheFuture]

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Iran_Air_Flight_655

If a mistake like this happened, it would be impossible to cover up IMO....especially here off the East Coast...

Exactly. And keep in mind, the Vincennes was actively engaged in a hot surface battle with nearly a dozen heavily armed  IRG boghammers at the time the Iranian Aircraft was taken down.

[K_Dubb]

It was a long time ago but I don't remember any of the witnesses who described a missile mentioning the persistent contrail.  You'd think once people realized a plane had gone down (and there were a lot of them) there'd be tons of photos at least of this nice contrail hanging there.

I'll buy that the video shows some missile launch somewhere; I don't see anything tying it to the plane.

[ZomZom]

Finally finished listening to the entire show.  A rebuttal of things like the claim that the judge changed the court transcript or even an accouting of the computer logs and missile inventory on the ships participating in the excercise would have been helpful.  Something I was thinking that I haven't seen mentioned is that the US has already 'fessed up to shooting down a civilian airliner--Iran Air flight 655.

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Iran_Air_Flight_655

[nika01]

They seem to be making the argument that it was a United States Navy platform that shot that plane down. I`m here to tell you, that is an absolute impossibility. It just could NOT have happened ...for a thousand different reasons. It`s completely absurd and, frankly, insulting that they would even attempt to construct such a bizarre scenario.

Tell that to the people on Iran Flight 665. I dont know what happened to Flight 800, but to make blanket statements about this seems a bit unwarranted to me. Mistakes do happen.

[GeorgieForPresident2216]

Yes it is. I never heard the part where they allege it was a submerged sub that took it out. Like I said before, only one sub in the world has the capability to launch a SAM (the old Soviet -- now Russian -- Kilo class D/E sub), but it must surface first.

The Germans are developing a subsurface to air missile called the IDAS Missile System, but the first test was in 2006.  I think it may only be effective against low flying helicopters.  I've only discovered it last night on the net during the show, so haven't read a lot of details.