20150819 - Bill Birnes and Jim Sanders - Live Chat Thread

[FightTheFuture]

Tell that to the people on Iran Flight 665. I dont know what happened to Flight 800, but to make blanket statements about this seems a bit unwarranted to me. Mistakes do happen.

Of course mistakes happen, but you`re comparing apples and shutputs.

Trust me...there is no possible way -- none -- that a US Navy platform took TWA flt 800 down.

[FightTheFuture]

The Germans are developing a subsurface to air missile called the IDAS Missile System, but the first test was in 2006.  I think it may only be effective against low flying helicopters though.  I've only discovered it last night on the net during the show, so haven't read a lot of details.

Wouldn`t surprise me. The Germans are very innovative with regards to weapon systems.  unfortunately, they seldom muster the will to actually put them to use.

[Mebee]

If I'm correct in what I think was said on the show, the vid is purported to show a second missile which was fired to take out the first missile, which was accidentally fired at the plane.

AND... if there were two missiles, where is a second contrail?

[Mebee]

Yes, the same thing happened a few years back off the coast of CA, a contrail mistaken for a missile.

Yes, and as is usual for conspiracy theorists, many STILL claim that was a missile regardless of the obvious correct explanation being given over and over again.

[GeorgieForPresident2216]

I caught like the first 50 mins or so before work.  interesting topic but.... well lets just pull out all the razors and try each one??

Occam's razor: When faced with competing hypotheses, select the one that makes the fewest assumptions. Do not multiply entities without necessity.

Hanlon's razor: Never attribute to malice that which can be adequately explained by stupidity.[2]

Hume's razor: "If the cause, assigned for any effect, be not sufficient to produce it, we must either reject that cause, or add to it such qualities as will give it a just proportion to the effect."[3][4]

Hitchens's razor: The burden of proof or onus in a debate lies with the claim-maker, and if he or she does not meet it, the opponent does not need to argue against the unfounded claim.

Newton's flaming laser sword (or Alder's razor): If something cannot be settled by experiment or observation then it is not worthy of debate.

Rand's razor: Concepts are not to be multiplied beyond necessityâ€"the corollary of which is: nor are they to be integrated in disregard of necessity

*these razors came from Wikipedia so I'm not sure how sharp they all are

Georgie's razor:  If a razor is not sharp enough to draw blood, then the shave quality must be carefully weighed against the $5 expense of replacing the blade.  Also, if a razor is sharp enough to draw blood, it will.

[K_Dubb]

Also, the guests seemed a little too concerned with launching the story, even bringing up the next election.  Would have been more effective to just lay the new evidence out there.  In retrospect the show was more of an insight into how the conspiracy industry works.  I smelled desperation more than anything.

The guy has had it since April I think he said; has at least he tried to find the location from which the video was shot?  There are some good landmarks, if he's a real investigative journalist.

[GeorgieForPresident2216]

An anti-aircraft missile would be much quicker than that.

Right, the missile should be able to reach the aircraft over a matter of seconds from launch, not the several minutes shown in the video.

[ItsOver]

Georgie's razor:  If a razor is not sharp enough to draw blood, then the shave quality must be carefully weighed against the $5 expense of replacing the blade.  Also, if a razor is sharp enough to draw blood, it will.

Dave Noorie's razor:  Be careful, Dave.  You may shave half your 'stache off or end up calling "Tommy, 911" again.

[Floydian]

Was that Bret or Blake(from 3rd Phase ...) that called in and was totally off topic?

I'm glad Art shut him down.   

Thx in advance.

Floydian

[GeorgieForPresident2216]

Right, the missile should be able to reach the aircraft over a matter of seconds from launch, not the several minutes shown in the video.

I've been trying to find some stats on this.  I haven't been able to find specifically what I wanted, but the standard ship to air missile appears to be called the SM-2, in various versions.  A typical example has a top speed of over 1000 meters per second, and a range of about 80 km.  I don't know what the acceleration would be, but simply dividing that gives a flight time of 80 seconds over its entire range.  80 km is a long ways; we weren't seeing the missile travel that far in the video.  The time span in the video is about 6 minutes -- way too long for a surface to air missile targeting an aircraft at only 15 000 feet. 

[Mebee]

I've been trying to find some stats on this.  I haven't been able to find specifically what I wanted, but the standard ship to air missile appears to be called the SM-2, in various versions.  A typical example has a top speed of over 1000 meters per second, and a range of about 80 km.  I don't know what the acceleration would be, but simply dividing that gives a flight time of 80 seconds over its entire range.  80 km is a long ways; we weren't seeing the missile travel that far in the video.  The time span in the video is about 6 minutes -- way too long for a surface to air missile targeting an aircraft at only 15 000 feet.

Right. Acceleration would be tremendous. Missile would be at full gallop within 10 seconds or less. What that vid shows it pretty obviously a contrail from an aircraft which is approaching the camera, and NOT going nearly straight up, as is claimed. Art bought it too. I wish someone had called in and noted that an approaching aircraft can SEEM to be flying straight up. I'm sure any such caller would have quickly been characterized as a "shill" or "troll" by the guests.  :

There is simply no evidence of any explosion at the top of the trail, so how they can claim the plane was blown up anywhere NEAR that spot in the sky is beyond me.

[Ms. C]

Great article, WC. Now it makes Sanders anger understandable.

I agree with you; excellent article.  Wow, it brings it home what power the media does have with self-censorship and how they can destroy someone's life.

Art, I thoroughly enjoyed the show and your guests; even if it is almost 20 years later.

[Juan Cena]

Wouldn`t surprise me. The Germans are very innovative with regards to weapon systems.  unfortunately, they seldom muster the will to actually put them to use.

Most people alive between 1939-1945 would say that is quite fortunate.

[ArJuna]

The "official narrative" which has been told to us for the last 19 years is the government counterpoint.  We now live in a nation, while albeit a great one with a fair amount of relative freedom, has an out of control media that is a puppet of the national security apparatus.  They can report freely on things that don't matter, but when push comes to shove the national security state always wins.  It hurts really bad when this is what , but what it is - is what it is. How corrupt is it? They have hired folks in online forums that are paid to be sock puppets to steer discussions, argue, troll or otherwise distract to keep folks off these topics.

This is not tinfoil thinking:
http://www.theguardian.com/technology/2011/mar/17/us-spy-operation-social-networks   
https://www.contributoria.com/issue/2014-03/52ceefe277e4f13f4300001d
https://books.google.com/books?id=VNu-g9i4OQAC&pg=PA192&lpg=PA192&dq=government+hired+sock+puppets+online+forums&source=bl&ots=xWL6ZyLTrT&sig=k7aMRAeLkmhjmMsYj2dZW1bcnSQ&hl=en&sa=X&ved=0CD8Q6AEwBWoVChMImuXAwYG4xwIV1DaICh3LRALu#v=onepage&q=government%20hired%20sock%20puppets%20online%20forums&f=false

So the "offical narrative" holds 19 years, they have their opposition already online - they have the upper hand already, so what if a show is made without an official being invited to the table?

Excellent post.  You are absolutely spot on.  Glenn Greenwald revealed documents first discovered by Edward Snowden which provided hard evidence that our government hires shills to post online to steer the narrative.  One of the most chilling effects of this practice that I have never seen talked about is what this does to people like you and me.  It makes people believe that a large number of us thinks in ways which they actually do not.  For instance, you see a lot of posts supporting the left on some subject, so you assume that many people do not hold the same position on a subject that you do.  Now when those in charge propose some legislation or some measure to prop up of effect that idea you believe they are doing this with some level of public support.  I think Americans are being led to believe that many of think in ways which are simply not true.  I believe the official narrative is so far off the mark that most of us would be shocked to know the truth.

I recall a mainstream news item from maybe a year ago that said the government put out a bid on some software that would enable their online posters (shills) to cover vastly more social forums with their efforts....  OK, I just searched for it and here is a link to the story.
https://www.techdirt.com/articles/20110218/02143213163/more-hbgary-federal-fallout-government-wants-to-buy-software-to-fake-online-grassroots-social-media-campaigns.shtml

The American public is being played hard.  There is nothing that those in power would not do to maintain control and to steer things in the direction they choose.  That they covered up the downing of TWA-800 is nothing but a minor footnote compared to all that I am convinced they have done.

I've waited a long time for people to catch on to all this corruption.  30 years ago I couldn't find one in a million who would relate to my view of things. To my amazement in recent years that number has exponentially grown to about one in ten today.  A further one in three are catching on fast.  The world  is far different than most ever imagined.

[Mebee]

That they covered up the downing of TWA-800 is nothing but a minor footnote compared to all that I am convinced they have done.

Just curious... do you think the vid those guys are touting shows the trail of a missile? If so, why?

[Mebee]

All anyone has to do is Google "Sunset contrails" to find plenty of examples of aircraft creating illuminated trails just like the one in the vid. Here's a story about one being mistaken as a fireball until properly identified:

https://www.metabunk.org/reported-fireball-in-oregon-sky-20th-november-2013-sunset-contrail.t2723/

[ArJuna]

They seem to be making the argument that it was a United States Navy platform that shot that plane down. I`m here to tell you, that is an absolute impossibility. It just could NOT have happened ...for a thousand different reasons. It`s completely absurd and, frankly, insulting that they would even attempt to construct such a bizarre scenario.

Sigh!!

[FightTheFuture]

Most people alive between 1939-1945 would say that is quite fortunate.

Well, those folks would be understandably excused, but it is past time for our, now key, ally to join the 21st century. Perhaps putting some real teeth back into the, once feared, Wehrmacht would be a nice start.

[FightTheFuture]

Sigh!!

Let me ask you something. Do you really believe an entire Navy ship's crew could be persuaded to "go rogue" and murder hundreds of their fellow innocent Americans? Men, women and children? And then, what? Just go home to their families and agree never to talk about it?? For what reason? How?

It's just absurd.

[ArJuna]

Let me ask you something. Do you really believe an entire Navy ship's crew could be persuaded to "go rogue" and murder hundreds of their fellow innocent Americans? Men, women and children? And then, what? Just go home to their families and agree never to talk about it?? For what reason? How?

It's just absurd.

What is absurd is your comment.  Did you not see my earlier post?  I was on a Navy ship and I was stationed in the combat information center during battlestations. During an exercise all ships would have been at battlestations. I know how they operate in these circumstances. Only a  few people on the ship would have had any clue what happened. Not a soul would have seen the plane get hit. A couple of people would have tracked it on radar.  Swearing a room full (at most) of sailors to secrecy is not a huge deal.

[ArJuna]

Just curious... do you think the vid those guys are touting shows the trail of a missile? If so, why?

I have not looked at the video yet.  I heard it described and it does not sound like it will have any impact. I did a lot  of research on this myself all those years ago, like I have done with all potential conspiracies against the American people since the early 1980's.  I was fairly certain it was a U.S. Navy missile pretty much since it happened.  There is no way to prove the video one way or the other.  Folks can argue amongst themselves over the video, but it's all pointless to me.  There were so many witnesses on the news the day it happened clearly saying they saw a missile.  The next day the missile story was almost completely dead in the mainstream news. It was if someone turned a switch.  After all we heard the first day about a missile it made no sense the MSM would suddenly place the subject off limits unless they were ordered to do so.  Combine that with the story my brother-in-law told me, that he and a friend both saw the missile and the explosion of the plane. They contacted the FBI and the FBI could not have cared less.  I briefly considered it might have been a terrorist attack, but if it had been I am certain they would have said so. At the time the government was looking for reasons to blame terrorist for anything. Also, as I recall, not one terrorist group ever claimed responsibility, which is something they would most certainly do. It was clear from many reports early on that the FBI had the planes debris under strict quarantine. There were numerous reports they would not let anyone official look at it. We also quickly learned that there was a large Navy exercise off the coast of Montauk the same day.

On the subject of the Navy exercises in the area. There are many stupid comments here about a lone Navy Sub, as if that was the only Navy vessel in the area. I'll get back to the sub.  The fact is that the U.S. Navy was holding a large exercise that remains a secret to this day.  What we do know about the exercise is that at about the same time that TWA-800 was taking off, a few miles away from the crash site an area of 8,000 square miles had just been designated as off-limits for the exercise. TWA-800 was just two minutes or so from flying into that off limits area when it was shot down.   The only other thing we know about the exercise is that aircraft, ships, and at least one submarine was involved. the rest is secret.  I remember reading a post from a sailor (claimed) who said they were using drones in the exercise that night.  This would imply the possibility of missile testing.  I also recall a very solid news story reported by a Southampton (Long Island) newspaper in which they reported that a local resident had received a fax intended for the FBI office.  The residents fax number was nearly identical to the FBI's fax number.  The fax indicated the FBI was researching whether some of the debris found was part of a common Navy aerial  drone used for target practice.  This is something I am sure you can find online.  If not, message me and I am sure I can find it in my archives.

OK, more about the submarine. You should read this more recent story about a Naval Academy graduate who claims to have a White House source that witnessed the Navy shoot down TWA-800 from the White House situation room of all places. He said they were monitoring an advanced missile test taking place in the Atlantic off the coast of Long Island.  Believe it or not, he says they were watching a secret missile test for a new submarine based anti-aircraft missile for use in Seawolf class submarines.  He said that once fired there was no longer any control of the missile. Go to the following link and read the rest. It sounds damned incriminating to me. http://www.wnd.com/2013/01/is-u-s-navy-coming-clean-on-twa-800/

There is no smoking gun that proves what happened.  I am certain it was a missile. For reasons stated I think the Navy missile is a much better fit than the terrorist missile.  It was not hard to put the pieces together.  To me there was very little doubt about what happened, even before the recent sub missile story and Art's show last night.

What I find most baffling is just how difficult it is for many people to accept that their own government and institutions like the MSM could so blatantly lie to them and not have their best interest at heart.  I have seen some people dealing with other 'conspiracies' who had finally realized they had been lied to, and then weeks later they had done a complete flip and denied everything they understood prior.  It is just too horrible for many people to accept that very bad people control theirs and their country's destiny.  If these people ever realize that TWA-800 is only the tiniest tip of a massive iceberg they are going to be in for a shock. Most haven't got a clue about the reality they live in.  Even many who consider themselves 'conspiracy theorists' and who are largely open to reality are in for a shock if and when they realize the scope of the lies.

[indigoo]

Interesting show when Skype calls were answered, for the most part, and both guests weren't talking over each other. Honestly, I think one guest at a time should be a steadfast rule, unless it's a debate that is heavily moderated. It is just so annoying to have people talk over each other and compete for airtime (though they were both very cordial).

[kennedymaure]

Georgie's razor:  If a razor is not sharp enough to draw blood, then the shave quality must be carefully weighed against the $5 expense of replacing the blade.  Also, if a razor is sharp enough to draw blood, it will.

I cut my finger chopping squash last night for dinner with a dull blade and still hurts like hell. It's right on the end of my thumb where you grab everything. With all this razor talk I have to say today I wish there was nothing sharp ever created on the planet.

[K_Dubb]

Interesting show when Skype calls were answered, for the most part, and both guests weren't talking over each other. Honestly, I think one guest at a time should be a steadfast rule, unless it's a debate that is heavily moderated. It is just so annoying to have people talk over each other and compete for airtime (though they were both very cordial).

Have you ever heard a Bill and Nancy show?  That's kind of how it works, even when they're sitting 'round the kitchen table, as I imagine.  This was largely a guest-specific issue.  But I like hearing them in spite of it.

[Herbn-Legend]

Well, those folks would be understandably excused, but it is past time for our, now key, ally to join the 21st century. Perhaps putting some real teeth back into the, once feared, Wehrmacht would be a nice start.

guess u realy do wanna fite the fufure. Wel i hope a nuke landz rite in yur yard. Smh

[Herbn-Legend]

Interesting show when Skype calls were answered, for the most part, and both guests weren't talking over each other. Honestly, I think one guest at a time should be a steadfast rule, unless it's a debate that is heavily moderated. It is just so annoying to have people talk over each other and compete for airtime (though they were both very cordial).

how about a guest who actually has something to share with the community. Thez snorry showz hav got to go! Rehashin old info meanz i KEEP MY $5 a month😝i never listend to snorry. An about to stop wastin my time on art.  Ive bin askd by a few here in hawaii to giv it 1 more month so i am. Livin life in the here an now iz better then livin in the 90z. We hav grown way beyond thez simpleton guestz. Pul yur head outa the past an live. Hope 4 alienz to come save the planet WHILE ACTUAL PEOPLE DO WORK TO SAVE IT.

[GravitySucks]

I have no idea what that video is supposed to be showing...

I believe it was a bomb on board and the Peter Lance was on the right track when he investigated it.

He wrote a book about it and I think Ian interviewed him.

http://peterlance.com/wordpress/?p=2394

One reason I never believed the spark in the fuel tank explanation is the fact that the 747 fleet was never grounded for retrofit and in spit of millions of hours of 747 flight time there has never been another incident.

I think Boeing was forced to go along with the official story and then was rewarded with the first attempt at the no-compete KC-10 replacement contract.

IMHO it was a bomb placed onboard just like PAL 434, but this time they picked the correct seat to involve the center fuel tank.

[Auslandia]

All I can say is that I was into it for about an hour.  Then I lost interest.

[FightTheFuture]

What is absurd is your comment.  Did you not see my earlier post?  I was on a Navy ship and I was stationed in the combat information center during battlestations. During an exercise all ships would have been at battlestations. I know how they operate in these circumstances. Only a  few people on the ship would have had any clue what happened. Not a soul would have seen the plane get hit. A couple of people would have tracked it on radar.  Swearing a room full (at most) of sailors to secrecy is not a huge deal.

What ship were you on, and when? What was your rate and who was the skipper?

[Dyna-X]

I have not looked at the video yet.  I heard it described and it does not sound like it will have any impact. I did a lot  of research on this myself all those years ago, like I have done with all potential conspiracies against the American people since the early 1980's.  I was fairly certain it was a U.S. Navy missile pretty much since it happened.  There is no way to prove the video one way or the other.  Folks can argue amongst themselves over the video, but it's all pointless to me.  There were so many witnesses on the news the day it happened clearly saying they saw a missile.  The next day the missile story was almost completely dead in the mainstream news. It was if someone turned a switch.  After all we heard the first day about a missile it made no sense the MSM would suddenly place the subject off limits unless they were ordered to do so.  Combine that with the story my brother-in-law told me, that he and a friend both saw the missile and the explosion of the plane. They contacted the FBI and the FBI could not have cared less.  I briefly considered it might have been a terrorist attack, but if it had been I am certain they would have said so. At the time the government was looking for reasons to blame terrorist for anything. Also, as I recall, not one terrorist group ever claimed responsibility, which is something they would most certainly do. It was clear from many reports early on that the FBI had the planes debris under strict quarantine. There were numerous reports they would not let anyone official look at it. We also quickly learned that there was a large Navy exercise off the coast of Montauk the same day.

On the subject of the Navy exercises in the area. There are many stupid comments here about a lone Navy Sub, as if that was the only Navy vessel in the area. I'll get back to the sub.  The fact is that the U.S. Navy was holding a large exercise that remains a secret to this day.  What we do know about the exercise is that at about the same time that TWA-800 was taking off, a few miles away from the crash site an area of 8,000 square miles had just been designated as off-limits for the exercise. TWA-800 was just two minutes or so from flying into that off limits area when it was shot down.   The only other thing we know about the exercise is that aircraft, ships, and at least one submarine was involved. the rest is secret.  I remember reading a post from a sailor (claimed) who said they were using drones in the exercise that night.  This would imply the possibility of missile testing.  I also recall a very solid news story reported by a Southampton (Long Island) newspaper in which they reported that a local resident had received a fax intended for the FBI office.  The residents fax number was nearly identical to the FBI's fax number.  The fax indicated the FBI was researching whether some of the debris found was part of a common Navy aerial  drone used for target practice.  This is something I am sure you can find online.  If not, message me and I am sure I can find it in my archives.

OK, more about the submarine. You should read this more recent story about a Naval Academy graduate who claims to have a White House source that witnessed the Navy shoot down TWA-800 from the White House situation room of all places. He said they were monitoring an advanced missile test taking place in the Atlantic off the coast of Long Island.  Believe it or not, he says they were watching a secret missile test for a new submarine based anti-aircraft missile for use in Seawolf class submarines.  He said that once fired there was no longer any control of the missile. Go to the following link and read the rest. It sounds damned incriminating to me. http://www.wnd.com/2013/01/is-u-s-navy-coming-clean-on-twa-800/

There is no smoking gun that proves what happened.  I am certain it was a missile. For reasons stated I think the Navy missile is a much better fit than the terrorist missile.  It was not hard to put the pieces together.  To me there was very little doubt about what happened, even before the recent sub missile story and Art's show last night.

What I find most baffling is just how difficult it is for many people to accept that their own government and institutions like the MSM could so blatantly lie to them and not have their best interest at heart.  I have seen some people dealing with other 'conspiracies' who had finally realized they had been lied to, and then weeks later they had done a complete flip and denied everything they understood prior.  It is just too horrible for many people to accept that very bad people control theirs and their country's destiny.  If these people ever realize that TWA-800 is only the tiniest tip of a massive iceberg they are going to be in for a shock. Most haven't got a clue about the reality they live in.  Even many who consider themselves 'conspiracy theorists' and who are largely open to reality are in for a shock if and when they realize the scope of the lies.

ArJuna, this is very well thought out and wise.  The video is very much secondary and periphreal to the TWA-800 story and the larger picture beyond that.