Art Bell

[Faustina]

Here's info on David Sereda:

"David Sereda's first aspiration in life was to become an astronaut. In 1968, David and a friend witnessed a UFO along with hundreds of other witnesses. After this experience, David grew up as a UFO enthusiast never living in doubt of the phenomena that has swept the world since the Roswell incident in 1947. His interest in space, religion, philosophy, astronomy and science led him on his career in related fields. He has worked deeply in high technology, on environmental and humanitarian issues and as a professional photographer for over 20 years. He has studied world religion, science, physics and paranormal psychology for over 25 years.

Websites:
davidsereda.net
Books:
Singularity
Evidence: The Case for NASA UFOs
Face to Face With Jesus Christ"

[inuk2600]

Isolation tanks and DMT will be brought up as well. As will pot.

Watch out for his susquehanna weed
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=BlKPBcDCiwk

[coaster]

Damn, that was funny.

[SciFiAuthor]

Anybody know who David Sereda is?

I do. He's an old school paranormal/metaphysics/futuretech/just about everything guy. I actually interviewed him for a short lived podcast years ago and found him to be rather "Hollywood" but interested in a very broad slate of topics. He'll be fine, he's been around the interview block for a long time.

[TigerLily]

Anybody know who David Sereda is?

I read his book "when engulfed in flames" after Ian interviewed him way back when.  Very smart, funny guy.

[TigerLily]

Sci.  Putin looks way too happy.  Just where is your dorsal fin?

[NXOEED]

Hi, guys. Just checking in. Everybody good?

[Zenman]

Joe Rogan tomorrow night.  Wow.  That's going to be interesting.  Joe has to remember Art's first rule.

Cool. Joe has strong Chi.

[SciFiAuthor]

Sci.  Putin looks way too happy.  Just where is your dorsal fin?

Amazing where vodka and 'ludes can get you in this world.

[TigerLily]

Amazing where vodka and 'ludes can get you in this world.

Brings new meaning to Vlad the Impaler

[Chronaut]

So we can only achieve full consciousness through meditation?

A lot of people have funny ideas about the meaning of the word “meditation.”  Meditation is simply a very aware and “present” state, where the observer and the observed are effortlessly witnessed in unison.  You can do it walking down the street, laying in bed, or sitting in a chair.  With that definition in mind, it appears that meditation is the crucial key to realizing a moment of full consciousness.  I’ve heard reports of people who spontaneously awaken in a moment of deep contentment and clarity â€" so it seems that people often meditate very effectively even when they don’t think of it as meditation.

Very enlightening! Let us assume that most of us will never reach a state of "full waking consciousness" and are doomed to an existence of "individually and collectively we stumble forward blindly, confused and erratic, from oppression to uprising and slaughter without any meaningful or enduring sense of purpose, over and over again throughout our lives and throughout history"

Then wouldn't institutions, that teach justice and moral values, to the majority of the population that will never reach a state of "full consciousness" be a necessary 'evil' to maintain a degree of moral order?

That’s an excellent and very challenging question.  I can only make a reasonable attempt at an answer.  Most evolutionary biologists seem to agree that our human concepts of morality and justice are evolutionarily encoded into our species genetically, through millions of years of ancestral social development.  Religion, in that view, came along much later and took credit for the many virtues previously encoded into the structure of the human brain.  So the view that we’re innately murderous sinful savages who would topple the world, if not for the controlling influences of organized religion, appears to be self-serving propaganda employed to convince the masses of the necessity of religious teaching.

And the success of that propaganda is saddled with a deep problem:  Because in addition to teaching common sense social concepts like “murder is bad” and the like, religious indoctrination also teaches young minds to accept the validity of “belief” â€" in the sense of the word that undermines the essential value and necessity for lucid and independent analytical reasoning and empirical science.  In a very real and dangerous sense, “belief” cripples vital processes of the developing human mind.  And this leads to confusion, anger, and violence.  This acts as a feedback loop to support the illusion that human beings are innately brutal and ignorant savages â€" seeming to the religious view that we’re born as savages, and religion has arrived to “save us,” when in fact the cognitively crippling indoctrination of cult thinking may be largely responsible for the catastrophic dysfunction of human relations on a global scale.

But then, I feel the same way to a large extent about the public education system, which seems to be designed to crush independent inquiry in developing minds by providing more answers than rationale, and subverting the growth of intelligence in favor of training rote memory.

I’d like to hear how a cognitive scientist would answer your question â€" this is a difficult and complex issue, and an important one to resolve clearly.

They would. Trouble is, that's not truth. That's just keeping the dumb people in line. I agree that such a thing is probably necessary, but it's a really icky thought otherwise.

The way I figure it, if they don't actively try to control me, then I won't bother them. The moment they try to impose their ideas on me, then I get prickly.

But it’s much bigger than that â€" the enormous institutions in question have sculpted the broad scale structure of global civilization.  So they’re not just affecting the few â€" we’re all living in the world they’ve created, and paying the price for their mistakes and their lust for authority.  It’s not “someone else’s problem,” it’s ours too.

People should follow whatever path that makes them happy and fulfilled. Sure it's almost certainly delusional, but that's a fact of being human.

I think it’s sad that we so blithely accept delusion as a fact of our humanity.  And not only on the personal level, but on the societal and global levels as well â€" because the consequences of mass delusion yield untold horror and bloodshed, generation after generation.  Are we really willing to accept that this will never change, when the weapons of our self-destruction have become so powerful, and increasingly pervasive and accessible, that the price of our delusions could soon exterminate us by the billions and send our entire race to the stone age?

@RoseGirl
Thank you RoseGirl.  I wish we could also agree on the value of empirical science, because I don’t abide by the false dichotomy of mysticism vs. the empirical sciences â€" I feel that both are absolutely essential and complimetary.

The only reason we accord established religions a sort of reflexive respect is because they have been around a certain amount of time and we have grown up around them.

Organized religion at any scale is simply a cult; we can agree on that much.  Your mistake is “throwing the baby out with the bathwater.”  If you look at the key figure at the heart of nearly any religion, you’ll find a mystic who experienced a state of full consciousness.  What they had to say is of indispensable value.  Unfortunately, their words are almost always terribly mangled by “followers” who failed to understand their meaning, weaponized them, and then subjugated others for personal gain by cloaking their often murderous acts in stolen words of insight.  It’s appalling.  But they’re two different phenomena;  the experiencer and the following, and it’s erroneous to conflate them.

Someone a few pages back called Metaphysics a 'subjective science'. That's a total oxymoron.

No it isn’t.  The body of science predominantly consists of reproducible phenomena that are independently verifiable.  Metaphysics/mysticism consists of the same process, except with metaphysics the scientist independently verifies the phenomena with his/her consciousness.  And like physical science, it’s not limited to one individual:  if ten scientists performed the same metaphysical experiment in the same way and under the same conditions, all ten would report independent verification of the phenomenon in question.  I posit that science has unduly limited its scope of research to matter and energy, neglecting the realm of consciousness.  I hope to see that change with the advent of new protocols, and daring scientists willing to experiment upon their own consciousness with powerful techniques dating back several eons.

If you want to believe something absurd then that's your prerogative, but if you want to extend that into the physical world then you need more than your own assertion to back it up.

Belief is the bane of understanding.  We would be wise to abolish belief entirely from our culture.  Because in truth, there are only two categories:  things we know, and things we don’t know.  “Belief” is something we don’t know masquerading as something we do know.  And that’s deceitful and dangerous.  People will fight and kill over “beliefs” - which is insane, because beliefs are nothing more than a dishonest form of ignorance.

Art 'saying' he had an out of body experience is just that. There is no reason for believing it is true.  We know so little about the mind that we can't conclusively say that it is a delusion, of course, but I don't think we can take it much further than seeing it as any other hallucination until more evidence comes in.

Please try to read the above statement as if you were reading someone else’s words, and consider it again with objectivity.  Because it’s very telling.  Barring any evidence either way, you assert that your personal bias “it was a hallucination” is more credible than Art’s testimony “it wasn’t a hallucination.”  Why should we believe you, and not Art?  It actually happened to Art, and not to you, so who’s more credible?  Personally, I choose to trust that Art’s account is the more accurate one, until I have reason to find otherwise.

But don’t get me wrong - I really respect your honesty when you admit that we can’t conclusively say what happened to Art.  You’re right â€" we don’t have a science of consciousness yet; in fact the very *definition* of consciousness is currently a matter of lively scientific debate.  There is a prevailing model:  the reductionist model that presumes that consciousness is generated by the brain, and wholly confined to the region of the skull.  Great advances have been made working under that assumption, and we now know all kinds of fascinating things about brain structure, neurology, and to a somewhat lesser extent, psychology and brain chemistry.  However, science still hasn’t established the true nature of consciousness, and a very different and ancient model is still in the running:  the animistic concept of consciousness.  Consciousness may be a universal field of some kind, and the brain may be a kind of radio receiver that tunes in to that field, acting as a kind of conduit between the field and physical reality so that we can act within it.  This shouldn’t seem as strange today as it once did - we now know of all kinds of fields pervading the universe; electromagnetic fields, gravitational fields, the recently-confirmed Higgs field, and by most interpretations of quantum mechanics a field of Lorentz-invariant vacuum fluctuations.  For additional insight into the true state of our understanding of consciousness, I suggest a look at any of the interviews on the subject with Dr. David Chalmers, Director of the Center for Consciousness at Australian National University: 
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=jKMJW6FcU3M

I once (several weeks after her death), saw my dead mother looking down at me while I was in bed. Do I regard that as conclusive evidence of life after death? No, I regard it is a natural consequence of someone who had barely slept for a month and was under severe stress.

That’s an interesting account.  I wonder if you’ve ever had a hallucination under similar conditions.  I once stayed awake for six days and nights, attempting to induce a visual hallucination of some kind.  Unfortunately, I failed.  But it is noteworthy that many people who were rested and relaxed, have reported similar incidents.  I haven’t come to any conclusions on the subject, but I’d like to someday.

It's only in discussions like this that respectable words like 'reason' and 'logic' are used as pejoratives.

You lost me here â€" I absolutely love logic, science, experimentation, analytical reasoning, and informed debates on just about any subject.  I think that it’s tragic that somehow “mysticism” and “irrationality” have been woven together in our cultural mindset.  It takes great clarity, rationality, and objectivity to comprehend the ancient tradition of metaphysics, which is an experimental science of consciousness.  But I suppose that like ufology, it’s tempting territory for charlatans and simpletons, so the signal gets subsumed by the noise.  But it’s not all noise…you just need a keen mind to cut through the crap.

I was going to take a vacation from posting, but this conversation piqued my interest. In my younger years, I took a great interest in metaphysical practices. I had many lucid dreams and OBEs. I thought I was "evolving" my consciousness.

I see this a lot â€" the term “enlightenment” has been misconstrued and redefined to mean “a gradual process of spiritual ascension.”  That’s hogwash.  “Enlightenment” refers to a sudden and unmistakable moment of full consciousness â€" which apparently can be permanent.  Nearly every mainstream “New Age” publication that I’ve ever seen, appeals to the conceit that this technique of meditation, or that “morning affirmation” or chant, or the this or that crystal around your neck, will somehow make you “better than other people.”  It doesn’t work like that, and people going down that road are moving backwards not forwards.  So I understand your reticence about the whole subject.

But lucid dreams are clearly not hallucinations â€" you’re either awake within your dream, or your not.  I don’t see how you could think that you had “fooled yourself” into thinking your lucid dreams were some kind of delusion or self-induced hypnotic suggestion.  I don’t think the phenomenon has much if anything to do with enlightenment, but at least it’s super fun.

I'm thinking that we'd all be better off ridding ourselves of beliefs that keep us bound to ego and power and materialism. Maybe we'd have a chance to create a more liveable world for everyone.

Precisely.  I’d even take it a step further:  let’s reject the concept of “belief” completely, and learn to live with the things we know and the things we don’t know, so we can all stop pretending that we know about the answers that we don’t have, and quarreling and warring about them.

Well, the odds are pretty well against it being true, aren't they? Take the three major ones. They have so little common ground…

This goes back to the crucial distinction between the avatar (awakened Master) and the misguided cult/religion that springs up around him/her later.  If you look closely at the experience that the avatars describe, it’s clear that they all had the â€"same experience-.   They all awakened from the half-sleep of the thought-dream state.  Nearly all of the major religions from Buddhism to Islam to Christianity â€" all sprang from the same well.  But naturally, since each avatar lived in different places and eras, the metaphors they employed to describe their experiences vary accordingly.  It’s tragic and insane that the religions that resulted from their experiences have never accepted and embraced this crucial underlying unity.  Perhaps if we stop raising people up to the level of deity just because they entered a higher state of consciousness, people would be less inclined to slaughter each other over their differing theological off-shoots.

I have experienced both an OBE and an incredible NDE.  I was NOT dreaming nor having a lucid dream.  These spontaneous experiences forever changed me and my view of consciousness.  There are no words to describe the beauty of what I saw or the feeling of unconditional love I felt.  I consider these experiences a monumental gift and have treasured these memories since 1987.

The beauty of experiencing these extraordinary events is truly knowing you cannot describe, convince, cajole, shame or judge another person's point of view as they must experience this for themselves.

Absolutely correct, and beautifully stated.  Every avatar that ever loved implored others to see what they have seen, for that very reason â€" the understanding received within that state is not transmissible: it must be experienced directly.  Collectively we say that we revere these people and what they had to say, but in actuality how few people ever make the slightest effort to do as they’ve instructed?  I’m not referring to the easy stuff about being a good neighbor and all, I’m referring to the techniques of meditation they described that can transform our waking experience of consciousness and let us see what they have seen.

Terrence McKenna once said that the proper technique for taking psychedelic mushrooms is “sit still, shut up, and pay attention.”  I love the fact that this is also precisely the correct technique for mediation, lol.

Political correctness, ISIS, pot-prohibitionists, tons of people out there trying to impose their ideas on others through the use of coercion. Religion has a really bad history on that one, almost all of them have histories of coercion against people.

And that’s just the tip of the iceberg.  Because when you really cut straight down to the bone, the entire social edifice that we exist within is a giant psychosocial construct engineered to control our minds from the cradle to the grave.  And breaking that conditioning is inconceivable to most people â€" in fact most people can’t see that we’re all deeply and terribly brain-washed by the internal monologue programmed into our brains.  If just 1% of us could break that conditioning, we could transform human life on this planet completely.

Nonetheless, personally I can't swallow the idea that we can directly interact with this greater reality because we have not discovered any organs or neural nuclei that would allow us to do this.

I suggest that you spend one hour in a sensory deprivation tank, and then tell us how many senses you think we have.  We may not know how to explain some of these senses, but once you feel them, you know they’re there.  But regarding the mystical experience, we’re talking about consciousness sensing consciousness, so we don’t even have to postulate extra sensory perceptions.

I was trying to illustrate, perhaps clumsily, that subjective experience is not necessarily delusion, just because you can't externally prove it to others.

Right.  This is what it’s like:  you go into the backyard and open the shed and find a candle flickering on the table.  So you come back inside and tell your friend “hey, there’s a candle burning in the shed out back.”  And your friend says “no there isn’t â€" I haven’t seen it.”  And you say “well aren’t you going to look?”  And your friend says “I don’t have to look; first you have to prove that it’s there.”  Whuh?  Of course, in that situation you can just take a photo.  But we don’t know how to make cameras that take photos of consciousness, so people have to go look for themselves.  It doesn’t take much effort, but people aren’t even willing to try:  it’s easier to call you crazy, stupid, or delusional.

So true, this is the best incarnation of Art's show yet. Art sounds like he's having a blast with it too. I even like Hoagland. I can't say that I've ever heard radio quite like Richard's show.

I agree â€" even though people have been podcasting for a few years now, there’s a sense of pioneering with the new show that’s fresh and exciting â€" maybe because the black veil of corporate subjugation isn’t hanging over this one.  Art sounds bright and happy, the commercial breaks zip by quickly, and the clarity of the audio is almost uniformly dazzling.  I do wish it was an hour longer though â€" it feels a bit rushed, like we’re missing out on the big surprises that used to come out when we could dig deep for four hours.

And Richard seems to be catching on nicely, in his own quirky way.  He still pontificates excessively and frequently has a snippy/dismissive tone with callers and guests, but there’s an infectious raw quality to it that feels like pirate radio.

[Gumby, Dammit]

Sereda is completely full of shit and and always has been.

[Zenman]

Hi, guys. Just checking in. Everybody good?

Hi NX.

I'm good, but I believe in Chi. This could be a problem.   

[Gumby, Dammit]

Brings new meaning to Vlad the Impaler

Yes.
This incarnation he's Vlad the Inhaler.
Completely invladidating his past life as the Barking Bard of all Vampires.
Which is why now he's the Tzar of All Russia (re: Chekhov lol).

[TigerLily]

Sereda is completely full of shit and and always has been.

Oops I was thinking of the wrong person.  I meant David Sedaris.  Now he would be a good guest for Art.

[TigerLily]

Yes.
This incarnation he's Vlad the Inhaler.
Completely invladidating his past life as the Barking Bard of all Vampires.
Which is why now he's the Tzar of All Russia (re: Chekhov lol).

Wow.  Putin was Vlad in a past life.  Could be.

[SciFiAuthor]

I think it’s sad that we so blithely accept delusion as a fact of our humanity.  And not only on the personal level, but on the societal and global levels as well â€" because the consequences of mass delusion yield untold horror and bloodshed, generation after generation.  Are we really willing to accept that this will never change, when the weapons of our self-destruction have become so powerful, and increasingly pervasive and accessible, that the price of our delusions could soon exterminate us by the billions and send our entire race to the stone age?

I agree with your assessment of institutional guiding of society and mass delusion. The game changer however will be superintelligence. Once you begin to augment people with technology, especially regarding the brain, then everything changes. The logic of computers becomes our basic fundamental basis of thought at that point. Once we get there then human cultural barriers will go away and so will the religions and institutions. They will have gone obsolete as we transition to a post-human civilization.

I agree â€" even though people have been podcasting for a few years now, there’s a sense of pioneering with the new show that’s fresh and exciting â€" maybe because the black veil of corporate subjugation isn’t hanging over this one.  Art sounds bright and happy, the commercial breaks zip by quickly, and the clarity of the audio is almost uniformly dazzling.  I do wish it was an hour longer though â€" it feels a bit rushed, like we’re missing out on the big surprises that used to come out when we could dig deep for four hours.

And Richard seems to be catching on nicely, in his own quirky way.  He still pontificates excessively and frequently has a snippy/dismissive tone with callers and guests, but there’s an infectious raw quality to it that feels like pirate radio.

Yeah! It feels just right. It's very entrepreneurial yet still Art Bell. And you're right, I guess I would put it that way, Hoagland feels like some kind of pirate radio. I hope he never changes that, polished is bad. Go with rawness. Though I think Hoagland gets that.

[TigerLily]

Hi NX.

I'm good, but I believe in Chi. This could be a problem.   

Remain the unformed block. Enjoy the Tao in all its manifestations.

[Gumby, Dammit]

Yeah! It feels just right. It's very entrepreneurial yet still Art Bell. And you're right, I guess I would put it that way, Hoagland feels like some kind of pirate radio. I hope he never changes that, polished is bad. Go with rawness. Though I think Hoagland gets that.

Wait. What?

[coaster]

I had obes as a child, almost nightly. Although it was a moving experience, nothing proves it was anything more than a hallucination due to the mind awake/body asleep state. I think people really try to find meaning in completely ordinary things to fulfill something they are lacking in their lives.
Obes can be produced with simple frequencies. Nothing spiritual about it. Nothing to do with fairies and leprechauns.
Thank you science for keeping my head out of the clouds.

[RoseGirl]

@RoseGirl
Thank you RoseGirl.  I wish we could also agree on the value of empirical science, because I don’t abide by the false dichotomy of mysticism vs. the empirical sciences â€" I feel that both are absolutely essential and complimetary.

Chronaut, I think we do agree. The empirical sciences are certainly useful in cataloguing and describing the more denser realities....so they certainly have a very important purpose. As does all of physical reality, which serves to complete the cycle and act like an engine for advancement. Where I have an issue with science is in it's zealous worship and ability to close the mind to all else. Really, in the timeline of history and learned wisdom science is 'the new kid on the block' and it tries so very hard to convince everyone that it is an old master. I've seen the 'grasping at science' ruin and close many curious minds. Sad, really...there is so very much more to reality.

Oh and you are so right about awakening. It is not a gradual process...except for the fact that it is, sometimes. lol But that was Zen, this is Tao.

Anyway, when it 'arrives'...or at least part of it does... it is like being hit by lightning over and over and over again. The power of it is simply overwhelming, to say the least. It is not a gentle experience at all. Nor should it be.

[SciFiAuthor]

I had obes as a child, almost nightly. Although it was a moving experience, nothing proves it was anything more than a hallucination due to the mind awake/body asleep state. I think people really try to find meaning in completely ordinary things to fulfill something they are lacking in their lives.
Obes can be produced with simple frequencies. Nothing spiritual about it. Nothing to do with fairies and leprechauns.
Thank you science for keeping my head out of the clouds.

That's my problem. I have ridiculous sleep/anxiety/migraine issues and I spend abnormal amounts of time in the hypnogogic state between sleep and wakefulness. Hours. Sometimes it's dissassociative where I guess it qualifies as an OBE. I wish the fuck it would stop because not easily achieving REM is very bad for you.

[TigerLily]

@RoseGirl
But that was Zen, this is Tao.

:

[TigerLily]

That's my problem. I have ridiculous sleep/anxiety/migraine issues and I spend abnormal amounts of time in the hypnogogic state between sleep and wakefulness. Hours. Sometimes it's dissassociative where I guess it qualifies as an OBE. I wish the fuck it would stop because not easily achieving REM is very bad for you.

Sorry you're having these issues.  I imagine many of us here have similar stuff.  That's why we're here and were so anxious to have Art back to fill these long nights.  At least we have a vaguely loveable group to hang out with.  As John said "whatever gets you through the night".

[deadmeow]

True OBE's are not hallucination, especially when you never lose consciousness.  I can hear, see, and feel when out of body, including feeling the warmth of the sun shining in through a window.

Interesting notes, one can sometimes feel the non-physical body vibrating, and start hearing loud buzzing noises before an OBE, but the physical body itself does manifest some change, as in a rapid heart beat, and if one can maintain being still, these symptoms will calm down and one will be able to exit the physical. 

I had about two OBE's a week when I was meditating often.  However, I started getting foot cramps after about one year of doing this, and had to stop.  Anyone who has ever had foot or calf cramps knows how painful those things are you just have to stop what you are doing and grab your leg/foot and stretch.

Perhaps it is possible to hallucinate being out of your body, but then you can make the argument that everything is hallucination. 

[coaster]

That's my problem. I have ridiculous sleep/anxiety/migraine issues and I spend abnormal amounts of time in the hypnogogic state between sleep and wakefulness. Hours. Sometimes it's dissassociative where I guess it qualifies as an OBE. I wish the fuck it would stop because not easily achieving REM is very bad for you.

having problems falling asleep can get frustrating.I get the vibration thing all the time, but just wait it out and go to sleep. Having insomnia, I'll try to get whatever sleep I can.

[sydtron]

Man. What a far out conversation!!  We are  smart bunch of people!

[coaster]

True OBE's are not hallucination, especially when you never lose consciousness.  I can hear, see, and feel when out of body, including feeling the warmth of the sun shining in through a window.

Interesting notes, one can sometimes feel the non-physical body vibrating, and start hearing loud buzzing noises before an OBE, but the physical body itself does manifest some change, as in a rapid heart beat, and if one can maintain being still, these symptoms will calm down and one will be able to exit the physical. 

I had about two OBE's a week when I was meditating often.  However, I started getting foot cramps after about one year of doing this, and had to stop.  Anyone who has ever had foot or calf cramps knows how painful those things are you just have to stop what you are doing and grab your leg/foot and stretch.

Perhaps it is possible to hallucinate being out of your body, but then you can make the argument that everything is hallucination.

Your body goes through a series of changes as it falls asleep. I get the vibrations, and pulsating wooshing in the ears, and then the body goes numb. there is an explanation for that. Its so you don't start moving and fall out of bed while you sleep. Hypnogogic/hypnopompic hallucinations are interesting, but theres nothing astral about it. As a kid, I would float around the room, through walls. A lot of fun. But its just a hallucination.  I'd much rather get some actual shuteye than think I'm going on some spiritual quest while floating past the bathroom. To state that its actually an
astral body is a far out claim, especially without proof. Edit pardon any typos. I hate typing on this damn tablet.

[deadmeow]

Life is only as spiritual as you make it, whether it be in the non-physical body or the physical body.  Perhaps your OBE's were not real, but if you do not wish to explore that, that is your business.

As a side effect of my OBE's I also had some lucid dreams/astral travel.  I think the difference between a dream and astral travel is just the level of awareness.  For me, when my experiences were often, my preference was to explore the physical world in an out of body state.  Absolutely fascinating.

I love hearing about other people's physical-world out of body experiences, (as well as astral experiences). 

[coaster]

Life is only as spiritual as you make it, whether it be in the non-physical body or the physical body.  Perhaps your OBE's were not real, but if you do not wish to explore that, that is your business.

As a side effect of my OBE's I also had some lucid dreams/astral travel.  I think the difference between a dream and astral travel is just the level of awareness.  For me, when my experiences were often, my preference was to explore the physical world in an out of body state.  Absolutely fascinating.

I love hearing about other people's physical-world out of body experiences, (as well as astral experiences).

Robert Monroe wrote three books on obes. You should read them if you haven't yet. They are pretty  interesting.