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Breakng news. Not good.

Started by Yorkshire pud, June 12, 2016, 01:49:29 AM

littlechris

Quote from: chefist on June 12, 2016, 08:27:15 AM
State of Emergency declared in Orlando...

50 people dead and 53 people in critical condition in the hospital.

chefist

Quote from: littlechris on June 12, 2016, 08:31:07 AM
50 people dead and 53 people in critical condition in the hospital.

Dear Lord...prayers out to the victims and loved ones. Shit, we need to wake up and call these animals what they are, Islamic Terrorists.

Yorkshire pud

Quote from: chefist on June 12, 2016, 08:34:49 AM
Dear Lord...prayers out to the victims and loved ones. Shit, we need to wake up and call these animals and call them what they are, Islamic Terrorists.


I'm not convinced prayers have any more use than bubble gum.

chefist

Quote from: Yorkshire pud on June 12, 2016, 08:36:06 AM

I'm not convinced prayers have any more use than bubble gum.

Positive energy, whatever you want to call it...sheesh...cold blooded, dude...

Lilith

Quote from: Yorkshire pud on June 12, 2016, 08:36:06 AM

I'm not convinced prayers have any more use than bubble gum.

roger that.

littlechris

Quote from: brig on June 12, 2016, 08:37:19 AM
roger that.

You used to be such a nice lady. What happened to you?

Lilith

Quote from: chefist on June 12, 2016, 08:37:12 AM
Positive energy, whatever you want to call it...sheesh...cold blooded, dude...

I'm not sure "Positive Energy" or whatever you want to call it has any more use than bubble gum either.

ItsOver

Quote from: brig on June 12, 2016, 08:24:29 AM
Just guessing here, but I suppose the shooter was the only armed individual in the club?
Brig, I haven't seen any reports yet of anyone inside the club other than the shooter being armed.

Lilith

Quote from: littlechris on June 12, 2016, 08:39:33 AM
You used to be such a nice lady. What happened to you?

littlechris, I was NEVER a nice lady.  Nice ladys are boring.  :P :-*

Quote from: SredniVashtar on June 12, 2016, 08:21:58 AM
I think it's simplistic because, like most things to do with war, all the planning strategy and whatever evaporates as soon as it makes contact with the enemy. If your proposals stood a reasonable chance of working then it would be reasonable to assume that they would have been implemented by now. Cutting off the head of one horrible leader doesn't necessarily mean that things will get better, often they can get a lot worse, as we have seen in Iraq. It's a bit like assuming that a huge artillery bombardment was going to beat the Germans into submission on the Western Front during WW1. It didn't work, and there's not much evidence to suggest that these blunt force solutions ever do. We can all say 'wipe out ISIS'. I'm sure everyone would want that, but it's a question of finding a way of doing it, otherwise all you are doing is playing armchair general rather than living in the real world.

ISIS isn't Germany.  Obama has had plenty of opportunities to destroy them, he hasn't because his worldview is wrong.

He was told by his generals not to take all the troops out of Iraq, to leave some behind to help continue to stabilize the government and military there.  He didn't listen.  Had there been US troops in the area, they would have strangled ISIS in the crib, if they'd even started up.

When ISIS was moving down the highway and attacking city after city, Obama could have ordered everything moving on those roads killed via airstrike.  He didn't.

When the Kurds were willing to fight an ISIS that was much smaller at the time, they asked for weapons and supplies.  They were refused.

Leveling Raqqa now, would be a good first start, but it's going to take more than that now.  Fortunately ISIS is weak militarily, they mostly need to be confronted.


Regarding ''cutting off the head of one horrible leader doesn't necessarily mean that things will get better'' is correct.  The US should have been supporting Assad, Khadafy, Mubarak, and the others.  Saddam Hussein should have been left in power.  They were keeping the lid on things.  Bush and Obama are idiots.


To suggest someone criticizing current policy and offering something else is 'playing armchair general', what do you propose, we drop all this and start following the Kardashians?  What did you think of Vicky Beckam's outfit the other night, isn't she a delight?

Lilith

Quote from: ItsOver on June 12, 2016, 08:40:39 AM
Brig, I haven't seen any reports yet of anyone inside the club other than the shooter being armed.

Me neither.

ItsOver

http://newyork.cbslocal.com/2016/06/12/orlando-nightclub-shooting/

Law enforcement sources told CBS News the gunman has been identified as Omar Mateen, a U.S. citizen from Port St. Lucie. Mateen was born to Afghan parents in 1986. CBS News reports Mateen has no apparent criminal history and that authorities are investigating whether he had ties to Islamic terrorism.



Yorkshire pud

Quote from: chefist on June 12, 2016, 08:37:12 AM
Positive energy, whatever you want to call it...sheesh...cold blooded, dude...

I don't do tea and sympathy. I try to do practical and useful help. Just the guy I am.

Lilith

Quote from: Paper*Boy on June 12, 2016, 08:42:40 AM


He was told by his generals not to take all the troops out of Iraq, to leave some behind to help continue to stabilize the government and military there. 


I understand a lot of what you're feeling, but do you really believe troops can stabilize anything?

chefist

Quote from: Yorkshire pud on June 12, 2016, 08:43:21 AM
I don't do tea and sympathy. I try to do practical and useful help. Just the guy I am.

Well, yours isn't helping much either...so, whatever.


Quote from: SredniVashtar on June 12, 2016, 08:30:29 AM
Have a look into it before you jump to a conclusion. You don't need a large group of people to wreak havoc, that's one of the governing rules of terrorism, you just need to be organised, and these guys are certainly organised. The big problem is that by alienating an entire religion then you lose the people you need on your side, who find themselves drifting into quasi-sympathy for the terrorists because they feel their whole belief system is under threat. That's one of the most dangerous things about all of this, that we get things out of proportion. You can't eliminate an entire religion, most of whose followers are law-abiding, and as long as they keep within the laws it's probably not a  good idea to alienate them. That's pure common sense, and not some sort of liberal agenda to be sympathetic towards terrorism.

You saw the part in my post about heavy doses of explanations to the world about what was done and why? 

If that isn't good enough for some of ''the people you need on your side'', well, we can't be hostage to that.  This needs to end

mikuthing01

A registered Democrat shoots up a Florida gay bar... This terrorist just handed Trump the election

mikuthing01

"Only Police should have guns"



SredniVashtar

Quote from: Paper*Boy on June 12, 2016, 08:42:40 AM
ISIS isn't Germany.  Obama has had plenty of opportunities to destroy them, he hasn't because his worldview is wrong.

He was told by his generals not to take all the troops out of Iraq, to leave some behind to help continue to stabilize the government and military there.  He didn't listen.  Had the been US troops in the area, they would have strangled ISIS in the crib, if they'd even started up.

When ISIS was moving down the highway and attacking city after city, Obama could have ordered everything moving on those roads killed via airstrike.  He didn't.

When the Kurds were willing to fight an ISIS that was much smaller at the time, they asked for weapons and supplies.  They were refused.

Leveling Raqqa now, would be a good first start, but it's going to take more than that now.  Fortunately ISIS is weak militarily, they mostly need to be confronted.


Regarding ''cutting off the head of one horrible leader doesn't necessarily mean that things will get better'' is correct.  The US should have been supporting Assad, Khadafy, Mubarak, and the others.  We should have left Saddam Hussein in power.  They were keeping the lid on things.  Bush and Obama are idiots.


To suggest someone criticizing current policy and suggesting something else is 'playing armchair general', what do you propose, we drop all this and start following the Kardashians?  What did you think of Victoria Beckam's outfit the other night, wasn't she delightful?

Armchair general is exactly the role you are playing and don't pretend otherwise. You don't have any authority or responsibility. You can make all these airy suggestions and you don't stand a chance of having them contradicted, unlike your bete noire Obama, who at least is there to take the blame if one of these 'let's wipe out ISIS' ventures of yours didn't work at exactly as planned'. It's about as much use as shouting at the telly at the moment, enjoyable as that can be.

Let's not forget that Obama has been dining out ever since on the fact that he was the guy who finally capped Bin Laden. Why wouldn't he carry it on and win immortal fame as the man who finally put those ragheads in their place? I don't think we can put it at the feet of some sort of vestigial liberal sympathies, because I think most people see that he  has pretty much carried on the war where Bush left off, in one form or another. He's not there figuring this all out on his own, so I'd assume that his generals advised  him against these ideas of yours. If you want to blame the leader, you must also blame the people surrounding him, who are all long-time members of the military who presumably have rather more idea of these things than you or me, with any luck.


mikuthing01

Quote from: SredniVashtar on June 12, 2016, 08:56:25 AM
he was the guy who finally capped Bin Laden

I have a bridge to sell you


Yorkshire pud

Quote from: mikuthing01 on June 12, 2016, 08:50:53 AM
A registered Democrat shoots up a Florida gay bar... This terrorist just handed Trump the election

What of the political affiliation of the shooters in all the other mass shootings? Relevant?

SredniVashtar

Quote from: mikuthing01 on June 12, 2016, 08:59:10 AM
I have a bridge to sell you

It will go nicely with your brain: only one owner, hardly used.

Quote from: brig on June 12, 2016, 08:45:48 AM
I understand a lot of what you're feeling, but do you really believe troops can stabilize anything?

You don't think the UN peace keeping missions are useful?


At the risk of sounding like a neocon..

Have you noticed Europe and Asia/Pacific have been fairly stable since WWII?  (Mao in China, Kim in N Korea, and Stalin seizing Eastern Europe were extensions of that war).  When has that ever been the case in the history of those parts of the world?  Are you aware of the NATO and US troops based in Europe and US bases in Japan, Korea, and formerly in the Philippines?  Perhaps security has played some role in the stability and continually raising standards of living the past 70 years?

Now that the US is gone from the bases in the Philippines, are you following what is China now doing in that part of the Pacific militarily?

In short, I'd say the answer to your question is yes

aldousburbank

Now that we've got gay blood involved our stupid ass prez may figure out we've got bigger issues than which bathroom trans people may use, or not.

mikuthing01

Quote from: SredniVashtar on June 12, 2016, 09:04:57 AM
It will go nicely with your brain: only one owner, hardly used.

Typical lefttard can only respond with personal attacks... enjoy the jihad

SredniVashtar

Quote from: Paper*Boy on June 12, 2016, 08:48:15 AM
You saw the part in my post about heavy doses of explanations to the world about what was done and why? 

If that isn't good enough for some of ''the people you need on your side'', well, we can't be hostage to that.  This needs to end

Look, the problem with this whole idea of yours is that you are talking about a system of beliefs, not just a discrete group that can be expunged and your problem solved. That's why getting rid of one bunch of bad guys only leads to another  group of possibly even worse ones down the pike, who have been galvanised even more by what they see and hear in the media. Simply saying 'this is why we wiped out an entire town' just doesn't cut it, however logical your motives are. Islam is a fact, and it's not going away. That doesn't mean playing footsie, but it means appreciating the situation for what it is and not jumping in like the Wild Bunch just because it feels right. Soft power rather than hard, in other words. And when we use the hard stuff, make sure it counts where it's needed. It seems every time we get one of those terrorist attacks we respond like it's a reflex action, and there's no evidence to support the belief that it does any good.

mikuthing01

Quote from: Yorkshire pud on June 12, 2016, 09:01:52 AM
What of the political affiliation of the shooters in all the other mass shootings? Relevant?

Ft Hood Shooter: Reg­istered Democrat and Muslim.

Columbine Shooters: Too young to vote … both families were Registered Democrats and progressive liberals.

Virginia Tech shooter: Wrote hate mail to President Bush and to his staff. Registered Democrat.

Colorado theater shooter: Registered Democrat, staff worker on the Obama campaign, occu­py wall street participant .. progressive liberal.

Connecticut school shooter: Registered Democrat. Hated Christians.

Jared Lee Loughner Gabby Gifford's shooter: Registered Democrat

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