The Other Side of Midnight - Richard C. Hoagland - Live Chat Thread

[Morgus]

I've talked with Phil about this before.  The reason he's refused to debate Richard Hoagland is the very reason I pointed to above: Gish Gallop.  Richard is too familiar with the mythology that he's been building up for decades that as soon as you pin him down on one thing, he will go to another.  That, and it would require hours on end of studying exactly everything that Richard has written about each and every topic for decades.

Think of it another way: Would you want to debate Tolkien about Middle Earth?  Or J.K. Rowling on Harry Potter?  They are embedded within their own mythologies and know so much more about them than anyone else possibly could that it would be fairly futile, and Phil had better things to do.

At least a debate with Hoagland on a show with a separate host would have a moderator, but on Hoagland's show he would be both the host/moderator and one side of the debate, talk about jumping in the "lion's den" 

[zeebo]

Didn't Hoagie and Zubrin get into it one time on Coast?  Anyway I'd say less debates and more rambling monologues with occasional requests for the guest to rubber stamp his theories. 

[Royal_Tenenbaum]

Good ideas. Since you have managed to call into Hoagland successfully several times, how about suggesting all that on your next call?
Hoagland seemed willing to accept calls and not cut off that guy who even he called his "stalker" and expressed his own interest in getting Richard Dolan as a guest (who was recently critical of Hoagland on Art's show) so he will probably be agreeable to some other critics on his show too I bet.
Would be great to have Hoagland with some onair debates that some of us wanted on c2c in the past, but some like Plait refused to debate  him on the air unfortunately.

I've had no trouble getting through to him, he pretty much answers right away. First was google voice and the other 2 were on Skype. Is anyone having trouble getting through? It's so late at night for so many of us (I'm East Coast) that it shouldn't be hard. I think you are correct.

As to the comments wondering how Hoagie got on the air: I think Art knows us and how incendiary Richard is. With open lines it should produce radio gold for long time fans. The more cynical of us can see it as keeping Richard off Midnight and letting other new guests shine, snubbing premrat, making Art's show look like the highest of art, and a nod to old 90's fans.

I personally would love for Hoagie to debate Michael Vera (search his youtube vids where he calls Richard out over the same thing his stalker did). I love how crazy Late Night and Michael can be. Dude on twitter (probably Vera since he rages over opposing views) called me a biased shill for Hoagland and accused me of working for him (he doesn't get the Cultural Advisor joke it seems) for goofing on Michael for mispronouncing "amoeba". Good radio drama for the listeners to be had there.

If anyone looks at my post history they will see my normal opinion of Hoagland. In spite of that, he has managed to win me over through his goofiness and general Hoagland behavior. The show has become a cult fave of mine and many others on Bellgab. It has heart and though I am loathe to admit this here, I have actually grown to look forwards to Richard's show more than Art's some nights. Blasphemy, I know.

I hope he grows the show to become an alternative-science focused debate on topics we don't believe in typically. There is a lot of fun to be had here. I know Bella Heaven fans are miffed, but I don't see why that equally fun show can't have a place on DMRN. Looking at the schedule, I see plenty of room for it. Gabcast should be on there too. This should be a community driven network. We are the greatest source of interest and promotion. This can be our home. Even my girlfriend is taking an interest in this, do in part to the vibe of Bellgab and general paranormal fan environment. She is a raging liberal atheist and just had a ghost encounter in our new place. I can't wait to tell that crazy story on Midnight's ghost show.

[PB the Deplorable]

I've talked with Phil about this before.  The reason he's refused to debate Richard Hoagland is the very reason I pointed to above: Gish Gallop.  Richard is too familiar with the mythology that he's been building up for decades that as soon as you pin him down on one thing, he will go to another.  That, and it would require hours on end of studying exactly everything that Richard has written about each and every topic for decades.

Think of it another way: Would you want to debate Tolkien about Middle Earth?  Or J.K. Rowling on Harry Potter?  They are embedded within their own mythologies and know so much more about them than anyone else possibly could that it would be fairly futile, and Phil had better things to do.

It would be like trying to have a discussion with Ian Punnett on something he disagreed with the caller - interruptions, put downs, mute button, hang up, snotty comments afterward.  Then say he just wanted to have a conversation but the caller made it impossible

Better things to do is exactly right

[SciFiAuthor]

ABSOLUTELY. Hoagie only grew on me because the tech problems and general bumbling humanized him. He was no longer a belligerent jerk to me. When he isn't being ignorantly assertive, he is really fun. He purports to love science and the fringe, so when he is acting as an interested vehicle for the audience it is great. Nothing wrong with challenging guests though, as long as it is civil (unless we are debating, which we should have once a week). There is room for Hoagie to keep his ideas, just like Art did with the quickening. Just don't beat the listener over the head. I want the tech problems to continue, even if it is faked btw.

Precisely. There is potential here. Hoags just has to find and pursue that potential above and beyond his own theories. I had no respect for the guy and considered him a BS artist, but the bumbling and human comments showed me a certain kind of talent that if explored could make for great listening. I admittedly also want the tech issues to continue, even if faked, I see no problem with faking something to get laughs.

[Jackstar]

Think of it another way: Would you want to debate Tolkien about Middle Earth?  Or J.K. Rowling on Harry Potter?

Why, yes, in fact, for several years now I have been working on a point-by-point analysis of the Potter series as a thinly-veiled metaphor critiquing the drug war, and debating Rowling to discover that she herself is unaware that Harry is a hippy grower would only energize my interlocutory thrill.

I recognize that there are multiple issues that come into play when dealing with RCH over J. K. Rowling, but if you're gonna go on over and be all like, "yeah that guy who I've been ragging on for years finally got his own show and is taking calls, but I'm not gonna call in, see? Because I need my beauty sleep," you're never gonna live it down, yo.

[astroguy]

Why, yes, in fact, for several years now I have been working on a point-by-point analysis of the Potter series as a thinly-veiled metaphor critiquing the drug war, and debating Rowling to discover that she herself is unaware that Harry is a hippy grower would only energize my interlocutory thrill.

I recognize that there are multiple issues that come into play when dealing with RCH over J. K. Rowling, but if you're gonna go on over and be all like, "yeah that guy who I've been ragging on for years finally got his own show and is taking calls, but I'm not gonna call in, see? Because I need my beauty sleep," you're never gonna live it down, yo.

I've stated clearly I'm happy to call in or debate him.  For the entire past month, though, I've been putting in 90-hour weeks working on New Horizons.  I'm not going to spend time when I could be sleeping calling into Richard's show when I'm working on an active space mission.

[Jackstar]

I've stated clearly I'm happy to call in or debate him.  For the entire past month, though, I've been putting in 90-hour weeks working on New Horizons.  I'm not going to spend time when I could be sleeping calling into Richard's show when I'm working on an active space mission.

[Jackstar]

I have difficulty not laughing at a man who's telling me about the masonic greys.  :

Obviously, the Masons were abducted first.

[Royal_Tenenbaum]

Why, yes, in fact, for several years now I have been working on a point-by-point analysis of the Potter series as a thinly-veiled metaphor critiquing the drug war, and debating Rowling to discover that she herself is unaware that Harry is a hippy grower would only energize my interlocutory thrill.

I recognize that there are multiple issues that come into play when dealing with RCH over J. K. Rowling, but if you're gonna go on over and be all like, "yeah that guy who I've been ragging on for years finally got his own show and is taking calls, but I'm not gonna call in, see? Because I need my beauty sleep," you're never gonna live it down, yo.

A good and fair point. I would also like to read your thoughts on the allusions to HP and the drug war.

[Yorkshire pud]

A good and fair point. I would also like to read your thoughts on the allusions to HP and the drug war.

So would he! At the moment it's just so much plankton drifting around in the Sargasso sea of his imagination.

[ShayP]

ABSOLUTELY. Hoagie only grew on me because the tech problems and general bumbling humanized him. He was no longer a belligerent jerk to me. When he isn't being ignorantly assertive, he is really fun. He purports to love science and the fringe, so when he is acting as an interested vehicle for the audience it is great. Nothing wrong with challenging guests though, as long as it is civil (unless we are debating, which we should have once a week). There is room for Hoagie to keep his ideas, just like Art did with the quickening. Just don't beat the listener over the head. I want the tech problems to continue, even if it is faked btw.

Precisely. There is potential here. Hoags just has to find and pursue that potential above and beyond his own theories. I had no respect for the guy and considered him a BS artist, but the bumbling and human comments showed me a certain kind of talent that if explored could make for great listening. I admittedly also want the tech issues to continue, even if faked, I see no problem with faking something to get laughs.

^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^
Both of these................

I've been of the same mindset. 

[Jackstar]

A good and fair point.

The show has been a fustercluck for taking calls so far--we're lucky we can barely hear Rich. I am sure astroguy and expat and the whole gang will Blitz him eventually.

I am sure of it.

I would also like to read your thoughts on the allusions to HP and the drug war.

He has a vast, astronomical pile of money, that he can't freely access, because of Dementors reasons.

[expat]

Anybody thinking of debating Hoagland needs to prepare for the fact that he's very quick on his feet and thinks nothing of lying just to score points.

**harp arpeggios**

It was 25 January 2010. The massive 7.0 earthquake in Port-au-Prince had happened 13 days earlier, at 18° 27' 25"N. Hoagland said on C2C that, of course, it was a beaut example of hyperdimensional energy because it was at 19.5°. A caller came on the line with "No, Richard, it was 18.5". Quick as a flash, Hoagland came back with "I was thinking of geodetic latitude, not geographic." Silence.

Two things about that. First, his speed was astounding, he didn't even draw breath. Second, it's utter bollocks. Geographic and geodetic are the exact same number. The other latitude measure is geocentric, which by the way is always less than geodetic.

[Yorkshire pud]

Anybody thinking of debating Hoagland needs to prepare for the fact that he's very quick on his feet and thinks nothing of lying just to score points.

**harp arpeggios**

It was 25 January 2010. The massive 7.0 earthquake in Port-au-Prince had happened 13 days earlier, at 18° 27' 25"N. Hoagland said on C2C that, of course, it was a beaut example of hyperdimensional energy because it was at 19.5°. A caller came on the line with "No, Richard, it was 18.5". Quick as a flash, Hoagland came back with "I was thinking of geodetic latitude, not geographic." Silence.

Two things about that. First, his speed was astounding, he didn't even draw breath. Second, it's utter bollocks. Geographic and geodetic are the exact same number. The other latitude measure is geocentric, which by the way is always less than geodetic.

What's a full degree (and a few minutes) matter when he's touting it as empirical no nonsense fact? Some people eh? It's in the data...

[ItsOver]

Just recognize RCH for the character he is and all is well.  “If you can't dazzle them with brilliance, baffle them with bullshit.”

[chefist]

Just recognize RCH for the character he is and all is well.  “If you can't dazzle them with brilliance, baffle them with bullshit.”

hahahaha AMEN!

[astroguy]

Anybody thinking of debating Hoagland needs to prepare for the fact that he's very quick on his feet and thinks nothing of lying just to score points.

Exactly.  Which is why in any "debate," one must realize that you're not actually debating him.  You are trying to point out to his audience that what he is saying is wrong, as quickly and concisely and easy-to-understand as possible.  You have to be able to move on, be similarly quick on your feet, and VERY familiar with his arguments and claims.

Which is why, other than himself, I think there are VERY few people  who have taken the time to familiarize themselves with his mythology enough to actually do such a thing.  I think I'm up there for most parts except a glaring hole is the history aspect -- something that Expat is much better at than I because he was just as involved - if not more-so - than Richard during that Apollo era.

[shell88]

"Just recognize RCH for the character he is and all is well.  “If you can't dazzle them with brilliance, baffle them with bullshit.”

[Jackstar]

Which is why, other than himself, I think there are VERY few people  who have taken the time to familiarize themselves with his mythology enough to actually do such a thing.

Perhaps you could ask Tyler.

[chefist]

Exactly.  Which is why in any "debate," one must realize that you're not actually debating him.  You are trying to point out to his audience that what he is saying is wrong, as quickly and concisely and easy-to-understand as possible.  You have to be able to move on, be similarly quick on your feet, and VERY familiar with his arguments and claims.

Which is why, other than himself, I think there are VERY few people  who have taken the time to familiarize themselves with his mythology enough to actually do such a thing.  I think I'm up there for most parts except a glaring hole is the history aspect -- something that Expat is much better at than I because he was just as involved - if not more-so - than Richard during that Apollo era.

Of course his last resort if you are winning the debate is to just say "well, either you are wittingly or unwittingly a part of the vast government conspiracy". After that, I don't think most would want to continue the debate due to the absurdity of it all...

[Jackstar]

due to the absurdity of it all...

Hoagland is far from the most absurd element here.

[GravitySucks]

I think RCH and this guy could have an interesting conversation.

http://sacredgeometryinternational.com/randall-carlson

[GravitySucks]

I would LOVE to hear RCH debate anyone from this society, just so for once in my life, I could side with Richard.

http://www.theflatearthsociety.org/cms/index.php

[GeorgieForPresident2216]

Anybody thinking of debating Hoagland needs to prepare for the fact that he's very quick on his feet and thinks nothing of lying just to score points.

**harp arpeggios**

It was 25 January 2010. The massive 7.0 earthquake in Port-au-Prince had happened 13 days earlier, at 18° 27' 25"N. Hoagland said on C2C that, of course, it was a beaut example of hyperdimensional energy because it was at 19.5°. A caller came on the line with "No, Richard, it was 18.5". Quick as a flash, Hoagland came back with "I was thinking of geodetic latitude, not geographic." Silence.

Two things about that. First, his speed was astounding, he didn't even draw breath. Second, it's utter bollocks. Geographic and geodetic are the exact same number. The other latitude measure is geocentric, which by the way is always less than geodetic.

I believe that is what you call 'truthiness.'

[zeebo]

I believe that is what you call 'truthiness.'

or 'scientisticalness'

[ShayP]

Do you think Richard would be interested in Buzz Aldrin's travel voucher to the moon and back?....or at least to Cape Kennedy. 
It does list the moon on the paperwork  (POV = Gov't Spacecraft). 

The government really loves paperwork.  I would've never imagined Astronauts would need to use travel vouchers. 

 

[SaucyRossy]

Do you think Richard would be interested in Buzz Aldrin's travel voucher to the moon and back?....or at least to Cape Kennedy. 
It does list the moon on the paperwork  (POV = Gov't Spacecraft). 

The government really loves paperwork.  I would've never imagined Astronauts would need to use travel vouchers. 

 

That's REAL??? Haha amazing

[K_Dubb]

I don't think a debate would be all that entertaining.  For me, as SciFiAuthor has pointed out, Hoagie's mind lives in the Popular-Mechanics, Sci-Fi fantasy world of the fifties and I really enjoy taking my nightly trip back there with my bumbling guide.  The first Pluto marathon with the other Richards was great -- you could tell they didn't really buy any of his theories as fact, but that's beside the point.

What Hoagie is, is a modern-day myth-maker.  His ancient civilizations are deities for a scientific world.  In an earlier age he would have been a soothsayer or something.  Mythology, which the modern scientific world has abandoned, lives in the maybe-it's-true world of imagination beyond science and keeps the mind open and excited.

With science, the whole Pluto thing is going to look at a ball of frozen rock and chemicals on the edge of the solar system.  Cool, but with Hoagie it's a ball of frozen stuff which might also be something else...  Vastly more entertaining. and also more "true" in the sense that it explains why humans get excited about exploration beyond any practical, science-bound realities.  It's how we try to contact the gods.

[chefist]

POV = privately operated vehicle