Art Bell

[CornyCrow]

Pollution is not growing in North America. Cite some sources. Co2 is not pollution. Without it all plants would suddenly die. Look at pictures of any of the rust belt cuties from the 60s. That was pollution. There used to be signs on the beach of Lake Erie saying don't touch the water. Now people fish Lake Erie. We have made major improvements, mostly in the 60s through 80s. The only thing that I am aware of that we haven't had the willingness to tackle is nuclear waste stockpiles.

Why do people here just assume that I am attacking this country?  Do you guys all listen to right wing media and so make these assumptions?  The pollution problem is a WORLD problem, not just ours.  We need standards that we all agree to follow. 

Sure carbon dioxide is necessary.  It is just released in too high numbers right now, as is methane, which might be even a larger problem.  Our oceans absorb a certain amount of the excess CO2, but the oceans are, because of this, becoming acidified.  All countries are affected by polluted air and water, not just us. 

I can't wait for the next generation of electric cars with a larger cruising range. 

[CornyCrow]

The American Middle Class is likely the most concientious consumer on the planet.

Who do you think is making the purchasing decisions to favor the building of hybrid automobiles, recycled products, other green products, and also drive the politicians to write the legislation that go against the corporate greed that doesn't care about pollution, and the folks that are too occupied surviving to be concerned about the environment?

Also, China and India are doing the polluting.  American industry is probably the cleanest in the world.

You sound like you are misapplying your understanding of reality to your hatred of the evil bourgeoisie.  Time to leave the protective bosom of the Occupy Wallstreet drum circle and college sophomore intellect, and do some world traveling.   It's an eye opener.

Oh, I see where the problem is.  The American lifestlye includes conspicuous consumption.  We spend and throw away.  We are getting better now, but we were once known for buying cheap disposable things rather than quality goods that would last.  We still do this more than the rest of the world.

What is included here is air-conditioning, a meat based diet, plastic packaging, all the good that we purchase that much of the world still sees as luxury.

I don't want to go back to the stone age, though.  I like the American lifestyle.  I think we should just limit world population growth.  To me, it's one or the other, either curtail your personal impact on the environment by going back to nature, or curtail our numbers on the planet.  I don't think we can have it both ways. 

[CornyCrow]

So, by your own admission, the evil American middle class is shrinking.

But we are to blame?

Geesh, I must have really misspoke.  I don't think Americans are evil.  Everyone should have it so good.  Who wants to go back to living 'close to the land' as they do in so much of the mid-East or Asia or Africa?  I believe that a strong middle class is necessary for a democracy. 

My problem, as stated before, is that the population of the entire planet should shrink.  We cannot just tackle the environmental problems by building more eco-friendly products and keep growing as we are.  At some point we will have to cut our numbers.  If we don't do that, we run the risk of nature/god doing it for us through wars and disease. 

[SredniVashtar]

I would imagine Pilate's big regret was pissing off the emperor and getting recalled back to Rome a few years after the crucifixion. That said, all the guy did was preside over a trial that was tinged with religion. Jesus was accused of a religious crime by the Sanhedrin but it had to have been ambiguous as hell because they had the full authority to stone him to death over it without consulting the Romans but they didn't stone him. Why? Something didn't quite match up for them on the religious side of things, probably the fact that he was calling them a bunch of crooks and they were and the public knew it.

So the Sanhedrin took it to Pilate, the Roman governor, to take care of and he washed his hands of the religious aspect but went ahead with the trial because some act of sedition against the Roman Empire had been committed, presumably Jesus of Nazareth's apparent claim to be a descendant of David, i.e. a claim to be the king of the Jews, and thus the famous INRI plaque the romans put on the cross mocking him for his claim.

The best version of this I have come across comes in 'The Master and Margarita' by Mikhail Bulgakov. He turns Pilate into a real figure who was desperate to save Jesus but didn't have the courage to go through with it, giving us one of the most famous quotes from the book: 'cowardice is the most terrible of vices'. How he got this into a satire about Stalin's Russia beats me, but he pulled it off, and is one of the most brilliant novels I have ever read.

[GravitySucks]

Why do people here just assume that I am attacking this country?  Do you guys all listen to right wing media and so make these assumptions?  The pollution problem is a WORLD problem, not just ours.  We need standards that we all agree to follow. 

Sure carbon dioxide is necessary.  It is just released in too high numbers right now, as is methane, which might be even a larger problem.  Our oceans absorb a certain amount of the excess CO2, but the oceans are, because of this, becoming acidified.  All countries are affected by polluted air and water, not just us. 

I can't wait for the next generation of electric cars with a larger cruising range.

Electric cars, if they have batteries, are not carbon neutral. Factories have to produce the batteries. Power plants need to generate the power to charge the batteries. Batteries need to be recycled or poluute land fills. Not a panacea.
Most of the methane entering the atmosphere is from natural sources. Rice paddies, decomposing vegetation (there go all those natural compost heaps), livestock, but by far the leading cause is natural seeps from rift lines and volvanic sources. Some of the worst are undersea volanoes.

Last I checked, there are only so many things we can control. We spend an inordinate amount of money trying to control sources with minimal impact.

I like some of the efforts being done in India. Cars driven by compressed air. Research on thorium reactors (which may even be able to be "fed" with nuclear waste, solving what I feel is one of our true pollution problems).
p.s.  We are not the boss of China

[paladin1991]

Pipe bomb?

[stargazr1976]

Geesh, I must have really misspoke.  I don't think Americans are evil.  Everyone should have it so good.  Who wants to go back to living 'close to the land' as they do in so much of the mid-East or Asia or Africa?  I believe that a strong middle class is necessary for a democracy. 

My problem, as stated before, is that the population of the entire planet should shrink.  We cannot just tackle the environmental problems by building more eco-friendly products and keep growing as we are.  At some point we will have to cut our numbers.  If we don't do that, we run the risk of nature/god doing it for us through wars and disease.

co
Certainly dont agree that the population should shrink for our consumption. Eviromental problems beyond our control unfortunaltly. Eco frieindly products dont exist. They claim as much on the labels but mostly dont. I buy some good unadulterated meat from a local store started in the depression when i can. Good stuff but society is gonna drive him down. Tell me. Exactly who would u cut from society?  That whole idea kinda sounds God like to me. I wouldnt want that responabilty nor the repercussions . Interesting but...... big damn but. so uhh who exactly would you knock off man? Ugly thought in my opinion but i havent slept in a while. God bless ya get down with your bad self.

[paladin1991]

Not really. He died for committing an act of sedition against the Roman Empire. Crucifixion was reserved as a punishment for treasonous crimes against the state but what that crime was is not recorded in the NT, though I guess staking a royal claim might have been it, you know, King of the Jews and all.

I don't want to believe. I'm just here to enjoy myself while I can and then go into a nice painless oblivion similar to what it was like before I was born. Nothingness is good. I'm more worried about ending up as a ghost or something, now that would suck balls.

Well, you might end up as SciFiGuy, the very friendly ghost, but you won't be sucking my balls.  I'm not that way.  Not that there's anything wrong with that, right?

As to why Jesus got smoked....  He carried out his mission.  Just like any good soldier, he went fwd, faced death, embraced it, so that others would live, eternally.
It's what I pledged, on my oath, to do, myself, if so required.  So that others may live.

Folks can yuk it up all they want.  He's got my respect.

[paladin1991]

The best version of this I have come across comes in 'The Master and Margarita' by Mikhail Bulgakov. He turns Pilate into a real figure who was desperate to save Jesus but didn't have the courage to go through with it, giving us one of the most famous quotes from the book: 'cowardice is the most terrible of vices'. How he got this into a satire about Stalin's Russia beats me, but he pulled it off, and is one of the most brilliant novels I have ever read.

I have never heard of this piece.  I'll have to find a copy.  Thanks buddy.

[stargazr1976]

The best version of this I have come across comes in 'The Master and Margarita' by Mikhail Bulgakov. He turns Pilate into a real figure who was desperate to save Jesus but didn't have the courage to go through with it, giving us one of the most famous quotes from the book: 'cowardice is the most terrible of vices'. How he got this into a satire about Stalin's Russia beats me, but he pulled it off, and is one of the most brilliant novels I have ever read.

ill tell you how good i got it. Ive suffered from polycemia for over a damn decade and i finally got a gig that with give me medical. Before that iran the roads and god all those things that you cant live without out there to you. You know 100 t0ns or so of oversize to deliver those transformers that supply power dont get there for free. Shit i did that  for what ever my boss would pay. 18 foot wide loads rolling roadblocks with the state police. Hell they praticed when when took one thru. Especially maryland. Be thankful. that some damn hard working prick gets that job done one in a while. Without us your r in blackout. We put our health aside marriages familys.No credit. Did you provide for the infrastructure sir? If so tell me where/

[SredniVashtar]

As to why Jesus got smoked....  He carried out his mission.  Just like any good soldier, he went fwd, faced death, embraced it, so that others would live, eternally.

I've never really understood how that worked. Nobody else does either, even if they like to pretend they do. It's one thing to sacrifice your life for someone else, quite another to lay down your life to forgive someone else's sins, whether we want them to or not.

[stargazr1976]

Ahh hell man ? if i had to live the live of Jesus.  hmm. I dont know that would be very difficult indeed sir.

[stargazr1976]

truely an interesting comment. I commend you sir.

[stargazr1976]

Talking out of my ass i guess but hey what the hell. I kinda Jesus was an old soldier in a way. Did what he had to do man. Ya dont always have to be happy about the shit thats going down and im sure he wasnt but you carry on ya know.

[stargazr1976]

lol i like this forum and i like the whole agreeing to disagree sometimes. I figure thats what its about. I apologive to any i've rubbed the wrong way. Difficult period of life for me and im happy to be here. Forgive me for my faults its been  a rough couple of months or so and ugh well. apprecieate the banter. Think all of ya are good folks.

[paladin1991]

I've never really understood how that worked. Nobody else does either, even if they like to pretend they do. It's one thing to sacrifice your life for someone else, quite another to lay down your life to forgive someone else's sins, whether we want them to or not.

I think that's the answer,somehow.  I got into it with some young college kids at Starbux, a decade back.  They were talking about how we ought to go into Iraq with the Marines and just lay waste to everything that moved.  I challenged them with 'Why put that on the Marines?  Why don't you enlist and do it?'  Answer was that they were in college and that they were going to make something of their lives. 
We went back and forth, they found out I was a Marine.  "Well nobody asked you to volunteer to protect us!"  I remember responding with, "You're damn lucky you didn't have to."  Or something to that effect. 

'Lay down your life to forgive someone's sins whether we want them to or not'   I can't articulate it very well, but this is the answer.

[stargazr1976]

I believe one of the few times i ventured into chat paladin you were in there. Correct me if I'm wrong.

[stargazr1976]

'Lay down your life to forgive someone's sins whether we want them to or not'   I can't articulate it very well, but this is the answer.


i can dig that

[paladin1991]

ill tell you how good i got it. Ive suffered from polycemia for over a damn decade and i finally got a gig that with give me medical. Before that iran the roads and god all those things that you cant live without out there to you. You know 100 t0ns or so of oversize to deliver those transformers that supply power dont get there for free. Shit i did that  for what ever my boss would pay. 18 foot wide loads rolling roadblocks with the state police. Hell they praticed when when took one thru. Especially maryland. Be thankful. that some damn hard working prick gets that job done one in a while. Without us your r in blackout. We put our health aside marriages familys.No credit. Did you provide for the infrastructure sir? If so tell me where/

Were you on meds and does that control it or did you have to stop fm time to time at med facility to be bled?

[stargazr1976]

You want the truth? Suppose to be bled every week. Aint done it in three years man.  veins took a beating. no cures . fuck the docs. Fuckin gospel man. Hemocrits sits somewhat stable.

[stargazr1976]

Were you on meds and does that control it or did you have to stop fm time to time at med facility to be bled?

as for meds. i hope you have a better prescription sir

[stargazr1976]

im a smartass. i lack a filter between my mouth and brain but probably one of the most honest fuckers you would ever meet.

[stargazr1976]

as for meds? bisoprolol fumarate. I take motrin. drink my beer. um currently being set over the gavel to see my kids again. they want me to take alcohol abuse classes anger managment.... domestic violence classes with i got kicked out of thursday for washing my infected mouth out with scope. fifeteen percent alcohol. u want honesty u got it

[stargazr1976]

Were you on meds and does that control it or did you have to stop fm time to time at med facility to be bled?

i dont stop to bleed i gave up on em. My blood doc said and i quote. arab  dude. u may be oik you may not i dont know. I quit not long there after.went to the road man. God help me. Noone would or could tell u that. without being honest. I like bellgab ill shutup. Reaaly do man. Im me tho. U asked a question u got an answer.

[onan]

I wish I had originated this saying...

If Jesus died for my sins, he way overreacted.

[stargazr1976]

between doctors and the court. i dont know man. i'd like to hope a few of them were honest however im not sure i believe that.
Jesus God forgive told ya all to much but i am who i am

[stargazr1976]

I wish I had originated this saying...

If Jesus died for my sins, he way overreacted.

enjoy u on the gabcast man. Intrigued me when you talked about clients. Ill try not to piss on the rug man

[paladin1991]

im a smartass. i lack a filter between my mouth and brain but probably one of the most honest fuckers you would ever meet.

We should drink mass quantities of beer together.  Nothing like a couple of loudmouthed assholes pontificating in the back of the bar to amuse everyone else.

[SciFiAuthor]

Sci, how is that gonna suck balls any worse than coming out of the nice, relaxing nothingness into this world? lol

I'm mostly Taoist, so I'm also here to enjoy myself till I go back into the nice oblivion. And I spend a certain amount of time meditating and practicing Chi Gong to try to replicate the relaxing nothingness. I'm pretty sure tho that the ghost thing, if it exists, is just a transition between the nothingness and the non-nothingness (yin and yang) for those who need it.

Zen, excellent point, the nothingness was rather relaxing when I look back on it. I don't really have a definition for what I am other than agnostic, but I also enjoy meditation of a sort. I just like to sit quietly or take a walk and let my thoughts take over. Daydreaming is my form of prayer I suppose. As far as the ghosts are concerned, I would guess that you're right in that it's somehow transitional as people don't seem to see really old ghosts; phantom Cro-Magnons haunting painted caves and things. Maybe it's just some kind of consciousness energy that sticks around for a bit but dissipates after a while.

If so, I at least hope that I end up as a poltergeist so I can throw things at people.

[onan]

I want to come back as a flock of pigeons... I don't need to explain further.