Turkey shoots down a Russian Su-24

[VtaGeezer]

It's  the same warning everybody gets. Standard warning. Dismiss it at your peril. And I have absolutely no doubt that these guys received all the warnings....and chose to ignore them. True, the Turks were operating with bad intentions as there certainly is no love lost between the two parties. But, Turkey was perfectly within their rights to take the Russian down. ESPECIALLY considering what they were most likely up to -- it wasn't bombing ISIS.

I think Erdogan got Obama to stomp on the burning bag of dogshit he left on the NATO's porch.

[FightTheFuture]

I think Erdogan got Obama to stomp on the burning bag of dogshit he left on the NATO's porch.

I think Erdogan is a bag of burning dogshit. And I bet when the call was made to Moscow, Obama rubbed Putin's nose in it. If you recall, and to Obama's credit, he actually warned Putin that this exact scenario may play out when he entered the fray.

[Uncle Duke]

I've been waiting for more information on this incident, but looks like both sides are looking to put this behind them and little, if any, more information will be forthcoming.  With that in mind, I have several questions I'm trying to resolve in my own mind.  I am not a military pilot, but did spend better than 30 years working with pilots from all branches of the US military, as well as those of several other nations including the UK, Australia, Canada, Israel, Belgium, etc. 

I read an article today where the surviving crewmember of the Su-24 claims they had no warning from the Turks before they were shot down.  That makes no sense.  The Turks broadcast a challenge on what is know as "guard channel", a designated radio frequency that is reserved specifically for emergency messages.  All nations monitor guard channel (243 MHz), why were the Su-24 crew not doing so?  If they were not doing so, that's on them.

It also makes no sense the Su-24 crew did not detect the tracking and targeting radars emitted from both the Turkish F-16s and/or NATO/Turkish ground radars.  In all probablity, there was also an AWACS-type aircraft (US, French, NATO, Brit, Aussie) painting that airspace with radar.  No questions the Russians have a radar/threat detector on their Su-24s able to pick up Western legacy radar systems.  Assuming the detector was working and engaged, no way the Su-24 didn't know they were being tracked. 

Finally, the Russians are well know for the tight rein their ground based controllers keep on their tactical aircraft.  The Russian ground controllers must have been both monitoring guard frequency and tracking non-Russian aircraft in the battle space around their warplane(s).  Why did they not warn the Su-24 crew?  Or is it possible they directed the Su-24 crew to ignore warnings from the Turks, figuring they'd not engaged them during multiple incursions into Turkish airspace in the past couple months despite Turkish warnings?

It's also worth noting Putin said the Su-24 was 1Km (.62 miles) inside Syrian air space at the time it was hit.  For an aircraft travelling at a crusing speed of 300-350 kts, .62 miles (distance from the border to missile detonation) would be covered in less than 10 seconds.  The missile, travelling 5-6 time the speed of the Su-24, would have overtaken the Su-24 in just a couple seconds.  Entirely possible the Su-24 was still in Turkish airspace when the missile was fired, yet was actually hit 1KM inside Syrian airspace.  If this was the case, this would seem to fall under the well established "hot pursuit" concept of warfare.

My gut feel is the Russians played a game of chicken and lost.  As I said however, I'm not a military pilot.  If anyone here is a current/former military pilot and can shed light on these questions, or explain why the questions (and my suppositions) are not valid, please do.

[norland2424]

the question is, why are you siding with ISIS and Al Qaeda as the Turks do?

How in the hell do you get that from his post ?

[norland2424]

Turkey is with Al Qaeda. you defend Turkey in a criminal act. So you may also side with Islamic terrorists

Or you know if you go in quiet as the russian birds tend to do and get shot down while criss crossing into turkey territory and end up being shot down then its on you, notice how both countries didn't escalate the incident.

[Uncle Duke]

you make a lot of excuses for the Turks.
so the question is, do you also support Al Qaeda and Isis?

You're an idiot.  I asking technical questions, not exclusing anyone of anything.

[norland2424]

* nobody was "criss crossing in turkish territory", even the turks themselves said the plane was in their airspace for 17s only, and I dont even buy that.
* it has been escalated. russia bombed a turkish convoy, S-400 sent, Moskva missile cruiser sent, sanctions against Turkish economy, etc..

Oh no time to hide in our bunkers, ww3 is at  hand :

[VtaGeezer]

It's my own conjecture, but I think the Turks baited and sprang a trap, probably in an attempt to keep the Rus off their Turkman allies who are fighting Assad.  They confirmed the Rus SOP of orbiting a ground target site to acquire the targets optically, then they directed their Turkman proxy fighters to be the bait at a location that would put the Su-24 on an target acquisition orbit that just clipped the narrow neck of Turk territory that extends several miles into NW Syria.  The key for me is how the Turk F-16s acquired, locked on and launched to strike the Su while the it was (per their track map) exactly transiting the scant one km wide neck and less than one km N of the line; a window of less than 20 seconds.  The F-16s had to be on a fairly specific track and position to pull it off.  Else the Rus would have been hit far inside Syria before any encroachment, or long after the encroachment ended and it was well back in Syrian airspace, or the F-16s would have had to turn and lost the shot.  Too many "random" details line up. I can't see it being a chance encounter.  And the more I think about it, I can't really see the Turkish AF setting it up.  I assume there was an AWACS coordinator.

The radio warnings were, I think, a CYA attempt by the Turks. They directed a change of heading but didn't include any threat of action let alone use of weapons.  Further, its SOP in such incidents for visual contact by the defending nation's aircraft, and in extreme cases a forced landing (it would have been four AAM armed Turk F-16s vs. one Su-24 bomber). There was no threat to Turkish territory because, except for that momentary transit of the narrow neck, the Su-24 heading was roughly parallel to the border and several km inside Syria.  The Russians likely ignored the warning because they anticipated no hostile action from Turkey for a momentary encroachment that was not threatening; the Turks knew who they were and what they were doing, and compliance would have complicated their targeting protocol. The area was a new target for Rus; perhaps their controllers were oblivious to the targeted rebels being allies of and supported by Turkey, and didn't anticipate increased risk. 

Turkish air action in Syria is likely off the table now because any Turk aircraft crossing the Syrian border will be likely smoked by the S-400 batteries or by the fighter escort now accompanying Rus ground strike missions.  Convenient for Erdogan; whom I wouldn't trust as far as I could throw one of the hundreds of oil tanker trucks selling smuggled ISIS oil into Turkey.

[GuerrillaUnReal]

So I'm pretty happy none of this crap is hitting the US. Let the Russians deal with this mess while we quietly cheer on both sides.

The real issue to me is why did IS have American TOW missiles that they used to shoot down a rescue helicopter? That story seemed to be around for a day before completely disappearing.

[norland2424]

So I'm pretty happy none of this crap is hitting the US. Let the Russians deal with this mess while we quietly cheer on both sides.

The real issue to me is why did IS have American TOW missiles that they used to shoot down a rescue helicopter? That story seemed to be around for a day before completely disappearing.

TOW is a pretty old system so it might have come from anywhere, but most likely it was from the caches daesh acquired from the fleeing iraqi army.

[SciFiAuthor]

So I'm pretty happy none of this crap is hitting the US. Let the Russians deal with this mess while we quietly cheer on both sides.

The real issue to me is why did IS have American TOW missiles that they used to shoot down a rescue helicopter? That story seemed to be around for a day before completely disappearing.

It wasn't ISIS. It was the rebel groups we're supporting that oppose Assad. Russia is bombing them more than they're bombing ISIS to try to prop Assad up. 

[norland2424]

Al Nusra and FSA have formed an alliance. So Mc Cain and USA are obviously supporting Al Qaeda in Syria, obviously also supporting ISIS since all these ridiculous groups have been created also to confuse the western audience and cover up who is supplying who.

war is hell, and with that fuck Russia and turkey

[pate]

I played those scenarios much better from my own pilot bs/vs FPS viewpoint, you n00b...

I keed

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=B9jjjDv97W4

[pate]

... Obama to stomp on the burning bag of dogshit he left on the NATO's porch...

Book a geezer on C2Crap's perdition shoe;   give Nooron a thyme-masheen for two years ago...

ediot: Lyuv the "the NATO" diction...

[Yorkshire pud]

you seem a bit short tempered. no need to call people names. it does not give you credit.

He seems short tempered (but isn't) because you add two and two and make five. Asking about the timings of aircraft and missile deployment only makes him an ISIS sympathiser in your head. Okay?

[GravitySucks]

Everybody is worried about one Russian jet. How may millions of Turkeys died yesterday?

[albrecht]

You're an idiot.  I asking technical questions, not exclusing anyone of anything.

I am not a pilot but have a cousin who pilots AWACS (not in that theater any more though) and I haven't asked him anything. But, using Hollyweird movies as a theory, is there a way that the Russian plane could've turned off the radio on those channels/spectrum ala Dr.Strangelove scenario even without knowledge of pilot? In any event, Turkey is supporting terrorists, fighting Kurds, and supporting the invasion of Europe by "refugees" so I don't mind Russians bombing their radicals in Syria but don't want escalation between Turkey proper and Russia since they are, stupidly, in NATO. But considering their support for the invasion of fellow NATO countries I think they have violated that agreement already so?

[Uncle Duke]

It's my own conjecture, but I think the Turks baited and sprang a trap, probably in an attempt to keep the Rus off their Turkman allies who are fighting Assad.  They confirmed the Rus SOP of orbiting a ground target site to acquire the targets optically, then they directed their Turkman proxy fighters to be the bait at a location that would put the Su-24 on an target acquisition orbit that just clipped the narrow neck of Turk territory that extends several miles into NW Syria.  The key for me is how the Turk F-16s acquired, locked on and launched to strike the Su while the it was (per their track map) exactly transiting the scant one km wide neck and less than one km N of the line; a window of less than 20 seconds.  The F-16s had to be on a fairly specific track and position to pull it off.  Else the Rus would have been hit far inside Syria before any encroachment, or long after the encroachment ended and it was well back in Syrian airspace, or the F-16s would have had to turn and lost the shot.  Too many "random" details line up. I can't see it being a chance encounter.  And the more I think about it, I can't really see the Turkish AF setting it up.  I assume there was an AWACS coordinator.

The radio warnings were, I think, a CYA attempt by the Turks. They directed a change of heading but didn't include any threat of action let alone use of weapons.  Further, its SOP in such incidents for visual contact by the defending nation's aircraft, and in extreme cases a forced landing (it would have been four AAM armed Turk F-16s vs. one Su-24 bomber). There was no threat to Turkish territory because, except for that momentary transit of the narrow neck, the Su-24 heading was roughly parallel to the border and several km inside Syria.  The Russians likely ignored the warning because they anticipated no hostile action from Turkey for a momentary encroachment that was not threatening; the Turks knew who they were and what they were doing, and compliance would have complicated their targeting protocol. The area was a new target for Rus; perhaps their controllers were oblivious to the targeted rebels being allies of and supported by Turkey, and didn't anticipate increased risk. 

Turkish air action in Syria is likely off the table now because any Turk aircraft crossing the Syrian border will be likely smoked by the S-400 batteries or by the fighter escort now accompanying Rus ground strike missions.  Convenient for Erdogan; whom I wouldn't trust as far as I could throw one of the hundreds of oil tanker trucks selling smuggled ISIS oil into Turkey.

So we agree.  The Turks did broadcast warnings to the Su-24 crew, and the Russians didn't take the warning seriously because the Turks had not taken action in the past.  It cost them an a/c and a pilot.

Ironically, the Russians/Soviets have historically been very aggressive in defending their airspace.  Most people know about their shootdown of defenseless commercial aircraft like KAL 007, but they also shot down a number of US recon and survelliance aircraft during the Cold War that were, by your definition, no threat to the Soviets.  In fact, most were in international air space.  Great book on the subject is "By Any Means Necessary" by William Burrows.

[GuerrillaUnReal]

Everybody is worried about one Russian jet. How may millions of Turkeys died yesterday?

[VtaGeezer]

Ironically, the Russians/Soviets have historically been very aggressive in defending their airspace.  Most people know about their shootdown of defenseless commercial aircraft like KAL 007, but they also shot down a number of US recon and survelliance aircraft during the Cold War that were, by your definition, no threat to the Soviets.  In fact, most were in international air space.  Great book on the subject is "By Any Means Necessary" by William Burrows.

I agree...somewhat.  I remember an RB-47 shot down by the Soviets in N Europe around 1960, the U-2, and of course KAL700 in '83. But that was over a generation ago and there's been nothing since. If there had been any earlier Rus/Turk air friction, we'd be hearing about it. Rus does plenty of runs at NATO airspace, but never crosses the line. We do the same.  As I said, the timing and precision of the Su-24 shoot-down were just too convenient to be reaction to an unannounced incursion.

[Uncle Duke]

I agree...somewhat.  I remember an RB-47 shot down by the Soviets in N Europe around 1960, the U-2, and of course KAL700 in '83. But that was over a generation ago and there's been nothing since. If there had been any earlier Rus/Turk air friction, we'd be hearing about it. Rus does plenty of runs at NATO airspace, but never crosses the line. We do the same.  As I said, the timing and precision of the Su-24 shoot-down were just too convenient to be reaction to an unannounced incursion.

*laughs*  I've read enough of your posts to know that you know the Russian AF all but ceased to exist, at least as an operational force, for well over a decade due to fiscal problems after the Soviet Union fell.  No fuel, no logistics system, and no money to pay the troops.  Easy to understand why aggressive defense of their air space didn't occur.
That's changed now with the discovery of natural gas and oil in Russia, and Ivan is again feeling his oats.

[norland2424]

Ha ha this ones for you goldfinger, go back to stormfront you damn idiot

[norland2424]

this one is for you

go back to the NAACP

Lol not black  so i could careless about crime rates, i just know you must be a fat wannabe skinhead

[albrecht]

this one is for you

go back to the NAACP

That would likely be the case just about everywhere you looked. Slavery was the worst thing done to and from this country, also for its legacy. Over course over the centuries whites, Asians, and just about every race or ethnic type have been victims of slavery, genocides, wars, colonialism, etc but seem to be able to move on, get their act together, make their country better, etc.

But this conversation has nothing to do with Turkey shooting down the Russian plane and 'rebels' shooting the pilots.

[GuerrillaUnReal]

I can understand a lot of the conspiracy theories and extreme right wing fear. However no one has ever been able to logically explain to me why gays and lesbians are a bad thing? What difference does it make to any of us if two dudes are fucking and get equal treatment as a man and woman fucking? Other than raising property values and bringing arts & entertainment to the neighborhood... what do gay dudes do to alter society exactly?

And why are you guys never mad at hot lesbians? It's always two gay dudes tounge kissing to make the point. Why not two hot chicks?

[albrecht]

I can understand a lot of the conspiracy theories and extreme right wing fear. However no one has ever been able to logically explain to me why gays and lesbians are a bad thing? What difference does it make to any of us if two dudes are fucking and get equal treatment as a man and woman fucking? Other than raising property values and bringing arts & entertainment to the neighborhood... what do gay dudes do to alter society exactly?

And why are you guys never mad at hot lesbians? It's always two gay dudes tounge kissing to make the point. Why not two hot chicks?

Because they are hot chicks! Duh. I don't care what people do in privacy but that is a different issue when it is done in public or to change millennia of legal definitions, make/share special bathroom to accommodate a deviant population of, what, according to Obama's government numbers <5% of the population? And unfortunately, much of the action is not 'marriage' or monogamous and, besides HIV-AIDS they gave us, the rate of all kinds of STDs, drug abuse, etc are higher in the homosexual population, according to Obama's CDC.

Again, nothing to do with the subject of the plane shot down but that is the BG way for threads! 

[norland2424]

I can understand a lot of the conspiracy theories and extreme right wing fear. However no one has ever been able to logically explain to me why gays and lesbians are a bad thing? What difference does it make to any of us if two dudes are fucking and get equal treatment as a man and woman fucking? Other than raising property values and bringing arts & entertainment to the neighborhood... what do gay dudes do to alter society exactly?

And why are you guys never mad at hot lesbians? It's always two gay dudes tounge kissing to make the point. Why not two hot chicks?

I have a feeling they get turned on more by the gay dudes kissing then hot lesbians so they end up feeling conflicted, like our buddy goldfinger here.

[norland2424]

yes, Stormfront is a nice forum too, but I prefer http://www.dailystormer.com/ and http://www.infostormer.com/
they present the news in a very funny and honest way.

Shut the fuck up seriously i understand you must be an autistic shut in but fuck you idiots are as bad as any other shit group.

[norland2424]

at least I don't spam the thread with personal insults like you do. why are you so angry? Your style reminds me of TYT and Liberals - have no arguments, must insult the messenger.
also, we should really come back to the topic,
you're  seriously de-railing this thread.

I get angry at idiots like you, hell you derailed the thread with your huge ass post about white society dieing or some stupid shit, i mean with your dumbass views why are you even on this site, you know Art bell and MV the sites owner are in interracial marriages?

[BellBoy]

yes, Stormfront is a nice forum too, but I prefer http://www.dailystormer.com/ and http://www.infostormer.com/
they present the news in a very funny and honest way.

Nice "headline" from your preferred site for news race-baiting, hate propaganda:

"Sick Jew Bitch Streisand Given Award by Top Ape, Attacks The Donald"



(That's certainly subtle)