Turkey shoots down a Russian Su-24

[FightTheFuture]

That is fine but often the Governors don't even know. Like with the Obama Doctrine of "catch and release" for criminal illegal aliens and the open-borders the radical "refugees" can often be imported without locals even knowing they are doing so. Often the local community and LEO realize after some kid gets raped or the usual DUI accident, and then there is a "immigration detention order" casually mentioned in the crime report- if the editor of the local news wasn't paying attention since it is not politically correct to report citizenship status, like race or ethnicity. I'm guessing though, with Obama's Muslim "refugees" we, more likely, will notice they are here in our community after a "honor killing" or some terrorism.

Son, this is South Carolina. We know what's goin' on down here

[VtaGeezer]

Jingoism aside; this is pretty dangerous shit. If Putin (revered by some on these boards) decides he'll take equal and proportionate (in his mind) action against Turkey we might be facing the beginnings of all out war. Turkey cannot have it's NATO membership (and NATO protection) revoked simply because the other members don't want to then play the game by the rules that were drawn up decades ago.

What a pisser.

Erdogan's rashness has managed to make a clusterfuck even worse. Erdogan is hiding behind Turkey's NATO membership to revert to typical ME tough guy crap for the home crowd.  He should be as worried about ISIS killers flowing thru the sieve he calls a border as Russian aircraft encroaching over sliver extending into the Syrian war zone. Meanwhile, the Supreme Leader in Tehran and ISIS' Baghdadi are both chuckling as the Big Power Keystone Cops trip over each other. 

[Yorkshire pud]

Turkey is supporting the invasion of "refugees" into fellow NATO countries. They also aren't on board against ISIS and won't support the Kurds etc. They are the ones who violated the mutual defense treaty. It could be argued with their support, and contributing their people into the mix, of the "refugee" invasion that they actually are attacking fellow members.
Having said that, I hope cooler heads prevail and things don't escalate. Hopefully the Obama/Hollande solution of more "refugees" and Islamic accommodation in our countries will solve things.

I don't disagree with you. The term 'reap what you sow' springs to mind though. The whole shit fest wasn't thought through when Turkey was good enough to launch strikes from on Iraq and Afghanistan. Forward planning has never been a strong point of governments post WW2.

[K_Dubb]

Putin scares me as much as ISIS.  The Ukraine disaster was a modern-day Anschluss.  I hope this checks him in some small degree, but it's not likely.

I wish some politician would actually tell us what's happening with the refugees:  that we, through our elected representatives, have agreed to take in some desperate people, including some potentially dangerous ones, for largely noble, humanitarian reasons, and accept the risks to our safety this involves.

A hundred years ago people were lamenting the integration of Irish and Italians with much the same heated rhetoric.  This culture has a seemingly bottomless capacity to absorb and transform; we'll see if we reach the bottom with this lot.

[albrecht]

Putin scares me as much as ISIS.  The Ukraine disaster was a modern-day Anschluss.  I hope this checks him in some small degree, but it's not likely.

I wish some politician would actually tell us what's happening with the refugees:  that we, through our elected representatives, have agreed to take in some desperate people, including some potentially dangerous ones, for largely noble, humanitarian reasons, and accept the risks to our safety this involves.

A hundred years ago people were lamenting the integration of Irish and Italians with much the same heated rhetoric.  This culture has a seemingly bottomless capacity to absorb and transform; we'll see if we reach the bottom with this lot.

A lot of the crime, sectarianism, and corruption brought by that generation of immigrants still exist in some areas, as does the terrorism they liked (though that has lessened to a good extent.) The diseases they brought are mostly over. But some of those prominent Irish immigrants' descendants, later, doomed the country via the 1965 immigration reform act. So there!

[Yorkshire pud]

Putin scares me as much as ISIS.  The Ukraine disaster was a modern-day Anschluss.  I hope this checks him in some small degree, but it's not likely.

I wish some politician would actually tell us what's happening with the refugees:  that we, through our elected representatives, have agreed to take in some desperate people, including some potentially dangerous ones, for largely noble, humanitarian reasons, and accept the risks to our safety this involves.

A hundred years ago people were lamenting the integration of Irish and Italians with much the same heated rhetoric.  This culture has a seemingly bottomless capacity to absorb and transform; we'll see if we reach the bottom with this lot.

Count yourself lucky you only had Irish and Italians:We've had Romans, Vikings, Normans, Saxons, Africans, Asians (Asia is a bloody big place!) And even Americans. (The list of course isn't comprehensive)

[Uncle Duke]

Hey, those babies work pretty good don't they? Allah Akbar, good sir.

So Russian government-owned TV news is showing a video clearly shot by the guys who took out the already-on-the-ground (shot down?) CSAR helo with a TOW missile?  Seems odd to me.  Also I am surprised by the terrain in the video, lots of very mature evergreen trees and other foliage. 

[VtaGeezer]

A hundred years ago people were lamenting the integration of Irish and Italians with much the same heated rhetoric.

A hundred years ago?  I have Navajo friends who still aren't very happy about any of those damn Euros arriving. And Hopi friends who wish the damn Navajo would go back to where they came from.

[K_Dubb]

A lot of the crime, sectarianism, and corruption brought by that generation of immigrants still exist in some areas, as does the terrorism they liked (though that has lessened to a good extent.) The diseases they brought are mostly over. But some of those prominent Irish immigrants' descendants, later, doomed the country via the 1965 immigration reform act. So there!

I don't disagree with you; acting magnanimously has costs.  But, in the case of the Irish and Italians, less than what was feared.

The problem is that immigrants bring their delicious food with them.  Germans can't shut up about their döner kebabs from the last wave of Turkish immigrants.  And I still dream about the chicken karahi (21 different spices!) from a place near where I used to live run by a devout Afghani (Pashtun) who would pause taking takeout orders to pray.

[VtaGeezer]

So Russian government-owned TV news is showing a video clearly shot by the guys who took out the already-on-the-ground (shot down?) CSAR helo with a TOW missile?  Seems odd to me.  Also I am surprised by the terrain in the video, lots of very mature evergreen trees and other foliage.

I thought it looked suspicious too but the smoke plume on the ridge visible when the guy is setting up matches the scene of the Su-24 impact shown on other outlets.  But it does seems a hell of a coincidence that they had a an anti-tank weapon just at the right spot to hit a helo on the ground. Definitely a US TOW missile launcher shown.

Breaking News - Russian military confirmed at least one Su-24 crewman dead from ground fire; one rescue helo attacked and a Russian Marine killed.

The Law of Unintended Consequences...

[FightTheFuture]

So Russian government-owned TV news is showing a video clearly shot by the guys who took out the already-on-the-ground (shot down?) CSAR helo with a TOW missile?  Seems odd to me.  Also I am surprised by the terrain in the video, lots of very mature evergreen trees and other foliage.

Yeah, and amazing how fast they got that video isnt it? Hahaha

[VtaGeezer]

Yeah, and amazing how fast they got that video isnt it? Hahaha

Seems suspect, but otoh, it may be the power of social media.  All it takes is a cell phone and a link.  These events happened many hours ago.

Phone vid of dead Russian pilot here:  https://www.facebook.com/osman.soufi1/videos/635340799939002/?__mref=message_bubble

[Uncle Duke]

I thought it looked suspicious too but the smoke plume on the ridge visible when the guy is setting up matches the scene of the Su-24 impact shown on other outlets.  But it does seems a hell of a coincidence that they had a an anti-tank weapon just at the right spot to hit a helo on the ground. Definitely a US TOW missile launcher shown.

Breaking News - Russian military confirmed at least one Su-24 crewman dead from ground fire; one rescue helo attacked and a Russian Marine killed.

The Law of Unintended Consequences...

The Russians had to have known any of their aircrew shot down, regardless of by who, over territory they were bombing the living shit out of, faced a grisly fate if not rescued almost immediately.

[FightTheFuture]

The Russians had to have known any of their aircrew shot down, regardless of by who, over territory they were bombing the living shit out of, faced a grisly fate if not rescued almost immediately.

Just keeping those guys sober and off the vodka long enough to service the aircraft to wage any sort of campaign is a chore in itself. A highly coordinated rescue effort is beyond the capabilities of the  Russian Army. They've only got about 20 or 30 aircraft that are even worth flying right now. Half of them are grounded most of the time.

[VtaGeezer]

Just keeping those guys sober and off the vodka long enough to service the aircraft to wage any sort of campaign is a chore in itself. A highly coordinated rescue effort is beyond the capabilities of the  Russian Army. They've only got about 20 or 30 aircraft that are even worth flying right now. Half of them are grounded most of the time.

No Russian has flown in contested airspace, let alone combat since the 80s.  They don't even have combat experienced trainers.  Got to be serious pucker time for Ivan.

[Uncle Duke]

No Russian has flown in contested airspace, let alone combat since the 80s.  They don't even have combat experienced trainers.  Got to be serious pucker time for Ivan.

Russians flew combat missions against Chechnyans in the 90s and early 00s, and I think against the Georgians in the mid/late 00s.

[SciFiAuthor]

What a ridiculously dangerous situation. Numerous different nations bombing the same place, all with completely different objectives.

[VtaGeezer]

Russians flew combat missions against Chechnyans in the 90s and early 00s, and I think against the Georgians in the mid/late 00s.

Rightio.  Forgot about that.

[VtaGeezer]

What a ridiculously dangerous situation. Numerous different nations bombing the same place, all with completely different objectives.

How did the USA/NATO wind up with its fate in the hands of a tinhorn nationalist Islamist like Erdogan?  The Turks gave only radio warnings before their F-16's launched.  No visual warning as is reportedly required. I wonder if USAF Incirlik will release the audio; there bound to be AWACS monitoring all.

[albrecht]

Russians flew combat missions against Chechnyans in the 90s and early 00s, and I think against the Georgians in the mid/late 00s.

And one of various Ossetias, I think at some point recently.

[albrecht]

How did the USA/NATO wind up with its fate in the hands of a tinhorn nationalist Islamist like Erdogan?  The Turks gave only radio warnings before their F-16's launched.  No visual warning as is reportedly required. I wonder if USAF Incirlik will release the audio; there bound to be AWACS monitoring all.

At some point, as France and Belguim are seeing, the demographics can't be stopped. Peter Dale Scott has some interesting stuff about Turkey. For quite sometime it has been an example of "deep politics" and really a state within a state with various secret cabals, foreign influence, secular vs muslim, east vs west, business v communist, and the military. New Yorker has an interesting article about it also.
http://www.newyorker.com/magazine/2012/03/12/the-deep-state
ps: forgot to add even wiki has stuff on it
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Deep_state

[albrecht]

I don't disagree with you; acting magnanimously has costs.  But, in the case of the Irish and Italians, less than what was feared.

The problem is that immigrants bring their delicious food with them.  Germans can't shut up about their döner kebabs from the last wave of Turkish immigrants.  And I still dream about the chicken karahi (21 different spices!) from a place near where I used to live run by a devout Afghani (Pashtun) who would pause taking takeout orders to pray.

Idk considering the legacy of corruption, identity politics, and the 65 immigration reform. Granted we got a day of drinking out of the deal and some good food, as you mention. I don't mind immigration but not to the point where it changes the culture/country and where people aren't checked for disease, criminal past, etc and have quotas (pre-65 or earlier style.) I would rather travel to other countries and enjoy their food and culture there and don't like our 'soft-power' of Hollywood and consumerism changing those lands also (not to mention our war policies often.) Though, I admit, sometimes it is refreshing to be able to enjoy a "hamburger" in some foreign land at McD's that tastes exactly, which is not good perhaps, as it would bought here.

[K_Dubb]

Idk considering the legacy of corruption, identity politics, and the 65 immigration reform. Granted we got a day of drinking out of the deal and some good food, as you mention. I don't mind immigration but not to the point where it changes the culture/country and where people aren't checked for disease, criminal past, etc and have quotas (pre-65 or earlier style.) I would travel to other countries and enjoy their food and culture there and don't like our 'soft-power' of Hollywood and consumerism changing those lands also (not to mention our war policies often.) Though, I admit, sometimes it is refreshing to be able to enjoy a "hamburger" in some foreign land at McD's that tastes exactly, which is not good perhaps, as it would bought here.

Well if the history of immigration is any guide, it will be scary and violent ghettos for the first generation and a half, but the grandchildren of those immigrants will celebrate their culture maybe once or twice a year with a goat or something from the halal butcher's.  (I say as I eat lunch of coffee and julekake med gjetost pÃ¥ -- grandma would be proud.)

[albrecht]

(I say as I eat lunch of coffee and julekake med gjetost på -- grandma would be proud.)

Haha. I hope you are right. I'm getting prepared for lutefisk next month. Thing is that most of those immigrants came and settled relatively barren areas and set up farms, communities, churches, worked on the docks, logging, ships, etc and weren't demanding Uncle Sam or the locals to give them housing, EBT cards, change their laws to accommodate them, and, for the most part didn't use terrorism etc.

[ItsOver]

... And Hopi friends who wish the damn Navajo would go back to where they came from.

Hehehe.  That doesn't sound very inclusive. 

[K_Dubb]

And Hopi friends who wish the damn Navajo would go back to where they came from.

Which by their language is somewhere in northern Canada, if I understand right.  Truly the Hungarians of N. America.

[SciFiAuthor]

How did the USA/NATO wind up with its fate in the hands of a tinhorn nationalist Islamist like Erdogan?  The Turks gave only radio warnings before their F-16's launched.  No visual warning as is reportedly required. I wonder if USAF Incirlik will release the audio; there bound to be AWACS monitoring all.

It's a terrible situation. Turkey should have simply given warning after warning without acting because the end result of shooting down a Russian plane is worse than having an errant plane in your airspace.

[Robert Ghostwolf's Ghost]

None of the three big cable "news" networks are trying whip up a frenzy of hysterical panic right now or even talking about it, so I take that as an indicator that there's probably not much to worry about at this point.

[ItsOver]

It's a terrible situation. Turkey should have simply given warning after warning without acting because the end result of shooting down a Russian plane is worse than having an errant plane in your airspace.

Yeah, I don't think they we're on a mission to strafe downtown Ankara.  I just hope your butt buddy doesn't take advantage of the situation.    But we are talking KGB.

[SciFiAuthor]

Yeah, I don't think they we're on a mission to strafe downtown Ankara.  I just hope your butt buddy doesn't take advantage of the situation.    But we are talking KGB.

Oh I guarantee he'll take advantage. It's Putin after all. The sad truth of this whole thing is that he's the real winner in all of this. The Ukraine situation can now be considered settled and Assad will eventually get his country back under control. It's a win-win for Vladimir.