A new Cold War? Can this shit be happening?

[Caruthers612]

       I heard Art mention our government's announcement that it intends to spend one trillion motherfucking of our dollars on upgrading our nuclear arsenal. My first reaction was, nuclear weapons? I thought we were past that shit and were dismantling it all now. My second reaction, since I know it's in response mainly to Putin apparently deciding he's going to rebuild the USSR by invading other countries and taking us back to the Cold War, was: Can this shit really be happening?!

       Jesus, man, I am genuinely having a hard time believing that a quarter century after the end of the original Cold War, that we may now be returning to it. Anyone else having this reaction?

[b_dubb]

The Russian missile network is in really bad shape. Proper redundancy would require about 20 satellites. They have four or five. The Russians need to spend 700 billion on their system just to bring it up to spec.

There's no real reason for us to upgrade our system except that's how this dance goes.

[GuerrillaUnReal]

Wouldn't it just be cheaper to borrow some of Iran's nukes?

[b_dubb]

Wouldn't it just be cheaper to borrow some of Iran's nukes?

That's not how white collar welfare works Mayor Quimby. But you know that.

[GuerrillaUnReal]

I know I was just being a smart ass. 

This is just hype from bored media in my opinion. Spending a trillion dollars on upgrading defense is disgusting but it's par for the course and I don't think it's out of Red Fear. This is my opinion, I'm not well read on the subject. But I don't feel like another Cold War is emerging, I think it's just business as usual.

[Caruthers612]

The Russian missile network is in really bad shape. Proper redundancy would require about 20 satellites. They have four or five. The Russians need to spend 700 billion on their system just to bring it up to spec.

There's no real reason for us to upgrade our system except that's how this dance goes.

      Da, tovaritsch. The announcement gave corporate America and Wall Street the kind of boner a cat couldn't scratch. It is true, though, that Putin is insane and hell-bent on conquest and expansion and needs to be stopped--though that fact is probably being used here as an excuse to transfer a trillion of our dollars to the coffers of the defense industry. I suppose if it creates some jobs and investment it could help our economy, at least, though I'd much rather spend the money on building a new energy grid based on solar and wind power, and replacing all our old-fashioned roads and highways with solar smart roads, which we'll need for emerging next gen transportation.

[GeorgieForPresident2216]

From what I read awhile ago, the 'upgrade' is meant to extend the life of existing weapons, even though it's essentially a complete rebuild and redesign.  It also increases the accuracy of the weapons so they can down-size the warhead yields.  That's one way of saying you're reducing your nuclear arsenal, I guess.  Spend a trillion dollars on it!

I believe the costs also include the replacement of the ballistic missile submarine fleet and the upgrading of strategic bombers.

[Caruthers612]

From what I read awhile ago, the 'upgrade' is meant to extend the life of existing weapons, even though it's essentially a complete rebuild and redesign.  It also increases the accuracy of the weapons so they can down-size the warhead yields.  That's one way of saying you're reducing your nuclear arsenal, I guess.  Spend a trillion dollars on it!

I believe the costs also include the replacement of the ballistic missile submarine fleet and the upgrading of strategic bombers.

           OK, well all of that makes me feel a bit better. It's true that our nuclear subs have long been the heart of our nuclear arsenal and the thing the truly strikes fear into the hearts of motherless commies everywhere.  No, seriously, the fact that they can lay waste to whole continents and the enemy never knows where they are has been a crucial part of our nuclear deterrent. Not to mention our nuclear detergent. I imagine a similar thing is true about the stealth bombers. North Korea and Putin need to be intimidated.

[albrecht]

           OK, well all of that makes me feel a bit better. It's true that our nuclear subs have long been the heart of our nuclear arsenal and the thing the truly strikes fear into the hearts of motherless commies everywhere.  No, seriously, the fact that they can lay waste to whole continents and the enemy never knows where they are has been a crucial part of our nuclear deterrent. Not to mention our nuclear detergent. I imagine a similar thing is true about the stealth bombers. North Korea and Putin need to be intimidated.

The problem is that this likely will lead to even more spending on other stuff because people will get jealous. "They got upgraded nukes, I want upgraded ships, but what about my tanks, etc etc" and, if reports from China and Russia are true, our carriers etc face some new vulnerabilities. But as much as I admire the Navy it could be time to figure away to go away with large floating targets- at least for some combat operations (ships can't be beat for logistical support) or against certain potential enemies. Space? More underwater? Drone and remotes more?

[FightTheFuture]

       
       Jesus, man, I am genuinely having a hard time believing that a quarter century after the end of the original Cold War, that we may now be returning to it. Anyone else having this reaction?

Who said "the original" cold war ever ended? I don`t know anybody who believes that.

[SredniVashtar]

I'm surprised Art hasn't had Joel Skousen on by now. He is always going on about how the Russians have been playing dead all this time but are really gearing up for a pre-emptive strike on the West that will take us all out and leave nothing else. He certainly has a view about all of this and would probably be the sort of guy that appeals to a gloomy pessimist like Art.

[Caruthers612]

I'm surprised Art hasn't had Joel Skousen on by now. He is always going on about how the Russians have been playing dead all this time but are really gearing up for a pre-emptive strike on the West that will take us all out and leave nothing else. He certainly has a view about all of this and would probably be the sort of guy that appeals to a gloomy pessimist like Art.

        Part of Art's gloomy pessimism these days is his being an old man. I'm sorry to say it but it's very clear at times that the way he now sees things is largely due to his age and the generation he comes from. It happens to all of us eventually. Much like hemorrhoids.

[Caruthers612]

The problem is that this likely will lead to even more spending on other stuff because people will get jealous. "They got upgraded nukes, I want upgraded ships, but what about my tanks, etc etc" and, if reports from China and Russia are true, our carriers etc face some new vulnerabilities. But as much as I admire the Navy it could be time to figure away to go away with large floating targets- at least for some combat operations (ships can't be beat for logistical support) or against certain potential enemies. Space? More underwater? Drone and remotes more?

        Yeah, and what you say is very much along the lines of my own ponderings in this area, namely aren't we already developing a drone/robot/AI military whose non-human combatants and weapons systems will largely replace not only human soldiers but some of the basic means of making war whose role has hitherto been so central they have been taken for granted. Maybe large vehicles and vessels will be somewhat replaced by swarms of flying nanobots delivering either explosive or nuclear, biological and chemical agents. In any case, when I first saw this video a couple of years ago, I knew we weren't in Kansas anymore. I know that one of the debates in the military world now is how autonomous to make these AI killing machines. I signed that petition against the development of such systems, for all the good it did (i.e., none.)

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=j-xHjMFAkpA

[albrecht]

        Yeah, and what you say is very much along the lines of my own ponderings in this area, namely aren't we already developing a drone/robot/AI military whose non-human combatants and weapons systems will largely replace not only human soldiers but some of the basic means of making war whose role has hitherto been so central they have been taken for granted. Maybe large vehicles and vessels will be somewhat replaced by swarms of flying nanobots delivering either explosive or nuclear, biological and chemical agents. In any case, when I first saw this video a couple of years ago, I knew we weren't in Kansas anymore. I know that one of the debates in the military world now is how autonomous to make these AI killing machines. I signed that petition against the development of such systems, for all the good it did (i.e., none.)

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=j-xHjMFAkpA

Yeah, to me, and it is scary and I hope it doesn't happen, but the future is the in biological arena. Now that we have mapped the human genome we (or more likely a foreign country with a crazy leader) can created genetically targeted bioweapons. Or, better yet from a Dr.Evil type of thinking, targeting a nation's crops, poultry, swine, water, etc because it would be harder to prove and the country who did it could look like the "savior" by helping the other country out. Or using sterile GMO seeds for blackmail/pressure on a hungry country.
It could be a scary world, or scarier.

[Caruthers612]

Yeah, to me, and it is scary and I hope it doesn't happen, but the future is the in biological arena. Now that we have mapped the human genome we (or more likely a foreign country with a crazy leader) can created genetically targeted bioweapons. Or, better yet from a Dr.Evil type of thinking, targeting a nation's crops, poultry, swine, water, etc because it would be harder to prove and the country who did it could look like the "savior" by helping the other country out. Or using sterile GMO seeds for blackmail/pressure on a hungry country.
It could be a scary world, or scarier.

         I wish I could disagree with you, my brother, but what you say is quite right, of course. As an old cyberpunk, myself, I couldn't help a wry smile when, the other day, Obama and the Chinese premiere shook hands on TV after signing an agreement in which each country promised the other not to launch a first strike cyber attack that would bring down the other country's economy. I can't believe we are now actually living in this age that I only read about in books for so long.

[paladin1991]

       I heard Art mention our government's announcement that it intends to spend one trillion motherfucking of our dollars on upgrading our nuclear arsenal. My first reaction was, nuclear weapons? I thought we were past that shit and were dismantling it all now. My second reaction, since I know it's in response mainly to Putin apparently deciding he's going to rebuild the USSR by invading other countries and taking us back to the Cold War, was: Can this shit really be happening?!

       Jesus, man, I am genuinely having a hard time believing that a quarter century after the end of the original Cold War, that we may now be returning to it. Anyone else having this reaction?

Well the original Cold War gave me a job.  My son will be graduating fm HS soon, guess he needs a job, too.

[SredniVashtar]

Well the original Cold War gave me a job. 

He's right. He's too modest to say so, but he had an uncanny resemblance to Leonid Brezhnev in his youth, and spent many of his younger days being passed around between various presidents and high-ranking generals in the US army. He was especially popular at birthday parties, where he would pop out of a birthday cake in a gold lame bikini and give us his best Marilyn Monroe impression. It might have been painful, but don't judge the man, and it paid his way through ballet school. 

[Yorkshire pud]

A new Cold War? Can this shit be happening?


...Yes, and I think it will get warmer. A lot warmer. Putin is a megalomaniac; Obama gets his critics and has accusations of tyrant thrown at him, Seriously? Putin is tyrant writ large. Putin won't care if the ME is turned to glass, we will though, and rightly so. Putin is simply after holding any country to ransom when the time suits him; sure he's trying to do it with a box full of used matches, but it all depends who blinks first doesn't it? These are dangerous times meethinks.

[SredniVashtar]

        Part of Art's gloomy pessimism these days is his being an old man. I'm sorry to say it but it's very clear at times that the way he now sees things is largely due to his age and the generation he comes from. It happens to all of us eventually. Much like hemorrhoids.

I don't think he has ever been much of an optimist. A big part of his act is the notion that we are all headed for the shitter at terminal velocity. I don't hear much of a change from the man who was going on about Hale-Bopp and 'the quickening' 15-20 years ago. It's just his personality. He probably also has an idea in his head of a day when America was really great (that never really exists, just like all these fantasies), and that we are all bad copies of the originals pre-WW2. In most hands that attitude would be pretty boring, but it is part of his skill as a broadcaster that he gets away with it as much as he does.

[scottydawg]

( I know that one of the debates in the military world now is how autonomous to make these AI killing machines. I signed that petition against the development of such systems, for all the good it did (i.e., none.) Thanks Caruthers!)
Signing petitions really doesn't do Jack Shit anymore except give you a warm fuzzy feeling inside for a little while!
We have the best political system money can buy! Our votes really don't matter much either. It's all the big bucks the K Street
lobbyist can pour into the Congressmen and Senators pockets to vote for expensive useless programs.
But god forbid we should spend some money on veterans care and replacing crumbling infrastructure built during FDR's reign.
Nope, roads, bridges, water delivery systems are boring. But a big Turgid weapons system that can penetrate deep into enemy
territory and deliver a big payload, Hot Damn!, that's what the US Defense Industry is all about!!!!!!

[Yorkshire pud]

Hot Damn!, that's what the US Defense Industry is all about!!!!!!

Or as Mr X (Donald Sutherland) said in JFK: "The organizing principle of any society, Mr. Garrison, is for war. The authority of the state over its people resides in its war powers. Kennedy wanted to end the Cold War in his second term. He wanted to call off the moon race and cooperate with the Soviets. He signed a treaty to ban nuclear testing. He refused to invade Cuba in 1962. He set out to withdraw from Vietnam. But all that ended on the 22nd of November, 1963.

[chefist]

Or as Mr X (Donald Sutherland) said in JFK: "The organizing principle of any society, Mr. Garrison, is for war. The authority of the state over its people resides in its war powers. Kennedy wanted to end the Cold War in his second term Where is the actual evidence of this policy?. He wanted to call off the moon race and cooperate with the Soviets He made the promise to go to the moon by the end of the decade. He signed a treaty to ban nuclear testing. He refused to invade Cuba in 1962. He authorized the Bay of Pigs operation. He set out to withdraw from Vietnam. He authorized the escalation of advisors in Vietnam, and there is no actual evidence of policy that he was reducing or withdrawing. But all that ended on the 22nd of November, 1963.

JFK has become a blank canvas for people to re-write their own dreams and wishes...the facts of history are completely different.

I would have voted for JFK and think he was a great President for the short time he was here...but there are some on the left who want to re-write history about his actual policies while in office...

[FightTheFuture]

******** STAND BY FOR TRANSMISSION FROM VLADIMIR **********

....Comrade Obama, Operation "Flexible" is proceeding as discussed. Looking forward to phase 3 of our plan.

              Your commie cuz,
                 
                         Vlad

[FightTheFuture]

http://youtu.be/9jOcuqyTef4

[Yorkshire pud]

******** STAND BY FOR TRANSMISSION FROM VLADIMIR **********

....Comrade Obama, Operation "Flexible" is proceeding as discussed. Looking forward to phase 3 of our plan.

              Your commie cuz,
                 
                         Vlad

Awww, bless.

[Yorkshire pud]

JFK has become a blank canvas for people to re-write their own dreams and wishes...the facts of history are completely different.

I would have voted for JFK and think he was a great President for the short time he was here...but there are some on the left who want to re-write history about his actual policies while in office...

Oh I wasn't taking the whole JFK thing; just that one sentence. You can use any country's leader of any political hue. All politicians are a slight variation on ego.

[chefist]

Oh I wasn't taking the whole JFK thing; just that one sentence. You can use any country's leader of any political hue. All politicians are a slight variation on ego.

gotcha..on the right conservatives have made Reagan the gold standard for ideological perfection...so many falsehoods about what worked and didn't in the policies of that administration as well...

[Yorkshire pud]

gotcha..on the right conservatives have made Reagan the gold standard for ideological perfection...so many falsehoods about what worked and didn't in the policies of that administration as well...

In the off chance we all reach 2020 and we haven't blown the planet to smithereens; we (England, Scotland, Wales) will have a General Election. The official opposition (Labour Party) has recently elected a firebrand old school pseudo Communist as it's leader...

As it stands, I don't think they'll be elected to be the Government; but you never know! Whichever President is in power in the USA at that time will have kittens if Labour get in. Some think (wrongly) Obama is a Communist; yeah right! Corbyn really does want us to leave NATO, really does want to dismantle our nuclear submarine fleet...Obama mentioned he'd do any of that? Us having no fleet or nuclear weapons might be bad for us, but would be a whole sight worse as he'd possibly try to push through getting rid of the UK as Airstrip one for the US. Airfields, listening stations, intelligence gathering here and passed on to the US could be no more. It wouldn't surprise me.

[chefist]

In the off chance we all reach 2020 and we haven't blown the planet to smithereens; we (England, Scotland, Wales) will have a General Election. The official opposition (Labour Party) has recently elected a firebrand old school pseudo Communist as it's leader...

As it stands, I don't think they'll be elected to be the Government; but you never know! Whichever President is in power in the USA at that time will have kittens if Labour get in. Some think (wrongly) Obama is a Communist; yeah right! Corbyn really does want us to leave NATO, really does want to dismantle our nuclear submarine fleet...Obama mentioned he'd do any of that? Us having no fleet or nuclear weapons might be bad for us, but would be a whole sight worse as he'd possibly try to push through getting rid of the UK as Airstrip one for the US. Airfields, listening stations, intelligence gathering here and passed on to the US could be no more. It wouldn't surprise me.

I would love to have a national referendum vote in each country we have a base in...if the populations votes us out, we go...it would be easier in that we here in the US won't be blamed for every problem in the world and we can use that DOD money here at home building new roads, bridges and a fusion reactor...

If that were to happen, then Europe would need to scrap NATO and form a unified defence force to counterbalance the Russians...

[paladin1991]

If that were to happen, then Europe would need to scrap NATO and form a unified defence force to counterbalance the Russians...

NEVER FUCKING HAPPEN.  The Euro gov's are all content to play Falkie to the American taxpayer.