Who will be the next President of the United States?

[CornyCrow]

Trump is not the libertarian you're looking for.

No, it's Libertarian attitudes that GOT us into this problem in the first place.  It's allowing big money and international businesses to override the interests of the general population, how about Monsanto's pesticides that may be causing bee hive collapse, or not labeling GMO's the way they do in many Western countries? 

Libertarianism is against any regulation on business and against any government services, including Social Security, Medicare, and Unemployment Insurance. 

Libertarians are quick to point out problems with the system, problems which most of us will agree, but read Rand's philosophy.  Only the wealthy have full rights of citizenship in her little world.  This growing financial rift between the average worker and 1% is exactly how she would have things.  This South American small wealthy rulers and the rest peasants that we are morphing into is the Rand utopia. 

I certainly think people should enjoy the fruits of their labor, but I also support public police, firemen, libraries.  I like the government taking poisonous foods off the market and closing Chipoltles.  Libertarians want none of that.  If a food establishment poisons you, it's up to YOU to hire the experts to prove that and the lawyers to take them to court.  If you don't have the money to do so - suffer and maybe die.   

[VtaGeezer]

No, it's Libertarian attitudes that GOT us into this problem in the first place.  It's allowing big money and international businesses to override the interests of the general population, how about Monsanto's pesticides that may be causing bee hive collapse, or not labeling GMO's the way they do in many Western countries? 

Libertarianism is against any regulation on business and against any government services, including Social Security, Medicare, and Unemployment Insurance. 

Libertarians are quick to point out problems with the system, problems which most of us will agree, but read Rand's philosophy.  Only the wealthy have full rights of citizenship in her little world.  This growing financial rift between the average worker and 1% is exactly how she would have things.  This South American small wealthy rulers and the rest peasants that we are morphing into is the Rand utopia. 

I certainly think people should enjoy the fruits of their labor, but I also support public police, firemen, libraries.  I like the government taking poisonous foods off the market and closing Chipoltles.  Libertarians want none of that.  If a food establishment poisons you, it's up to YOU to hire the experts to prove that and the lawyers to take them to court.  If you don't have the money to do so - suffer and maybe die.

Nicely said. Libertarians survive because they're protected from their own naivete by grownups who won't let them play on the freeway.  Now, we'd better duck. 

[SciFiAuthor]

No, it's Libertarian attitudes that GOT us into this problem in the first place.  It's allowing big money and international businesses to override the interests of the general population, how about Monsanto's pesticides that may be causing bee hive collapse, or not labeling GMO's the way they do in many Western countries? 

Libertarianism is against any regulation on business and against any government services, including Social Security, Medicare, and Unemployment Insurance. 

Libertarians are quick to point out problems with the system, problems which most of us will agree, but read Rand's philosophy.  Only the wealthy have full rights of citizenship in her little world.  This growing financial rift between the average worker and 1% is exactly how she would have things.  This South American small wealthy rulers and the rest peasants that we are morphing into is the Rand utopia. 

I certainly think people should enjoy the fruits of their labor, but I also support public police, firemen, libraries.  I like the government taking poisonous foods off the market and closing Chipoltles.  Libertarians want none of that.  If a food establishment poisons you, it's up to YOU to hire the experts to prove that and the lawyers to take them to court.  If you don't have the money to do so - suffer and maybe die.

I agree. I think the key to a reasonable political position lies in some mixture of libertarian, conservative and liberal ideas with a good dose of pragmatism tossed in.

[Mind Flayer Monk]

On the other side, you may think you are getting fire departments, food safety, and schools, but what you are really getting is just more capital, time, and energy sapped by government. There is a reason lobbying is so profitable now-business isn't about creating new products anymore-its about managing the government better. That's why US R&D budgets are decreasing and lobbying budgets are increasing.

[CornyCrow]

oh.  already beat me to it.

Sure.  I think there are basic interpretations of the religion that must change.  I think the kids who surprise their parents by joining radical groups must have really clueless parents because their 'normal' upbringing has to be paving the way, setting the stage, for radicalism later in life. 

I sometimes think Islam does not encourage introspection, soul-searching.  This could lead to a lot of repression and social interactions that are superficial and appearance-based, not grounded in the reality of being human. 

Do Islamic countries have Islamic psychologists, and I wonder what they think happens in the minds of devout Muslims?   

[MV/Liberace!]

What makes you think I don't have liberal values? It's the way 'liberal' in some places has been lumped in with those who aren't liberal. The bigots who stop speakers speaking (I've mentioned this elsewhere, so won't repeat it) at uni's aren't liberal. They might think and say they are, but they're not.

fair enough.

[CornyCrow]

the islamic world is against free speech.  it's against homosexuality.  it seeks to supplant common law with islamic law.  its treatment of women is obsolete.  it worships an illiterate, poorly groomed warlord who married a 9 year old girl.  i could go on and on.  yet, "liberals" are tripping all over themselves in a frenzied rush to defend this ideology.

i really miss the days when liberals preached in support of liberal values.  what the fuck happened to you people?

You know, I am liberal on some issues and conservative on others.  I think most people are.  Putting us in permanent camps, labeling us, may be an attempt to keep us apart on commonly held interests so little gets done.  People who are really 'liberal' or 'conservative' probably are fanatics and lack the ability to think clearly.

I don't know who I'd vote for.  It'll probably be Hillary vs. Trump.  Hillary is an establishment tool.  Trump is too crude, rough around the edges.  I like his decisiveness yet I wonder if he forms opinions that are not well though out, making snap judgments that lack insight. 

[onan]

i really miss the days when liberals preached in support of liberal values.  what the fuck happened to you people?

I don't know, I hope they are still around.

[CornyCrow]

Trump's "Muslim ban" rhetoric is undoable but he's kicked in the door on a taboo PC subject and it may actually lead to some rational thought about immigration of a group, Arab Sunni Muslims, who; especially the current generation; are actively resistant to assimilation into Western culture and provide cover, willingly or not, for radicals and potential terrorists.  As more is learned about Farook of the California massacre, its becoming unimaginable that his extremism wasn't known to his circle long before the act.  We've made the abstract idea of a "religion" into a magic amulet that wards off normal security and social considerations, even when that religion has no mechanism to authoritatively disown the violence intrinsic in its scriptures.  Our culture sees religion as an individual association rather than the constantly reinforced social groupthink that is prevalent in some Islamic sects.  This must change or we'll find ourselves on a suicide track.

Perhaps the West should just tell Arab Muslims that henceforth our religious tolerance will mirror that most Muslim of nations, Saudi Arabia. No clerics, no mosques, no quran, no abaya, no beads, no muezzin, etc.   They'd go absolutely f'ing nuts.

Such excellent points.  Islam incorporates much more than what is commonly thought of as 'religion'.  I am thinking that in the West religion should not be treated specially, even in the tax code.  It should be thought of as a philosophical system that people, by personal choice, can join or leave at will.  To hell with the concept of religious persecution.  Different religions, like different political parties, have certain ideas that are good and others that are not so good.  If it's a philosophy, each of those ideas can be tackled and discarded by a society with no validity to the claim of 'religious persecution'.  Just do not recognize religion. 

[Dr. MD MD]

It should be thought of as a philosophical system that people, by personal choice, can join or leave at will.

Except they can't. The penalty for apostasy is death in Islam. Now what?

[MV/Liberace!]

Such excellent points.  Islam incorporates much more than what is commonly thought of as 'religion'.  I am thinking that in the West religion should not be treated specially, even in the tax code.  It should be thought of as a philosophical system that people, by personal choice, can join or leave at will.  To hell with the concept of religious persecution.  Different religions, like different political parties, have certain ideas that are good and others that are not so good.  If it's a philosophy, each of those ideas can be tackled and discarded by a society with no validity to the claim of 'religious persecution'.  Just do not recognize religion.

perfectly stated.

[CornyCrow]

Well, they've been assfucking Omama and both Bushes with no problem for decades now. I'm sure they would have their way with the Hidebeast also. At least Trump in his hubris would not like being spoken to like a cabana boy and he has so much money, I don't think they could bribe him. Although who knows. I used to think we were going to have "Change" and "Hope" when Obama took over, and he's the biggest ass clown of them all.

If we had a serious commitment to renewables we would need them less and less.  It does not make sense that we have had alternate technologies and yet have chosen to live with this noose around our necks.

I would vote for Trump but for his stance on the environment, which I believe, in the long run, is a more serious threat than terrorism or our dwindling freedoms and diminishing lifestyle. 

[whoozit]

Well, they've been assfucking Omama and both Bushes with no problem for decades now. I'm sure they would have their way with the Hidebeast also. At least Trump in his hubris would not like being spoken to like a cabana boy and he has so much money, I don't think they could bribe him. Although who knows. I used to think we were going to have "Change" and "Hope" when Obama took over, and he's the biggest ass clown of them all.

When Obama came into office I "hoped" I'd still have some "change" in my bank account and 401k when he left.  I got lucky and got a new job with a substantial increase increase but have always felt less secure than earlier in my career.  I don't want fancy rhetoric and promises that will be abandoned.  I'm sick of logic being applied to situations that cannot be solved by logic.  I want someone that says what they mean and will follow through.  Trump seems to be that person but I still have a lot of reservations. 

[CornyCrow]

On the other side, you may think you are getting fire departments, food safety, and schools, but what you are really getting is just more capital, time, and energy sapped by government. There is a reason lobbying is so profitable now-business isn't about creating new products anymore-its about managing the government better. That's why US R&D budgets are decreasing and lobbying budgets are increasing.

The problem is, as I've stated before, that we allow money to influence our politics too much.  So the majority of people who run for office are driven by greed and not altruism.  The system selects for people who can be bought.   

Elections can be shorter and financed by government.  The media is still public so for the privilege of presenting programming(buying a license), a certain number of hours could be donated to elections.

How the hell did we get stuck with Citizens' United?

Insider trading, what Martha Stewart was jailed for, is against the law for everyone but Congress members.  Maybe this is why they come out as multi-millionaires?  So, in exchange for supporting bills you can get stock tips, maybe? 

This problem is way bigger for our democracy than redistricting or incumbency yet it gets hardly any attention.  Big money interfering with our political system is the one largest thing that is destroying our country. 

But, allowed to fester, our environmental problems will be even bigger than that, and those are things that you cannot fix with some quick legislation.  They take decades to build and more decades to solve.  We will reach a point, if we have not already, when it will be too late.  I don't know how people with children can deal with this problem because I have no kids and am very concerned.   

[CornyCrow]

Except they can't. The penalty for apostasy is death in Islam. Now what?

No, it's not.  Not in America.  Here you are free to join and unjoin.  If that's the law here, they must abide by it - which means that individuals are to be held responsible for their thoughts AS INDIVIDUALS.  If the law does not recognize religion, then discrimination would be no defense at all. 

Many countries now have new citizens swear an allegiance to the laws of the country over those of any religion just because of this problem with Muslims.  They were honor killing their wives and daughters in Western countries and using religious persecution as a defense when they were caught at it.  One judge in the UK actually allowed some jerk to get away with it until there was a retrial.

[Dr. MD MD]

No, it's not.  Not in America.  Here you are free to join and unjoin.  If that's the law here, they must abide by it - which means that individuals are to be held responsible for their thoughts AS INDIVIDUALS.  If the law does not recognize religion, then discrimination would be no defense at all. 

Many countries now have new citizens swear an allegiance to the laws of the country over those of any religion just because of this problem with Muslims.  They were honor killing their wives and daughters in Western countries and using religious persecution as a defense when they were caught at it.  One judge in the UK actually allowed some jerk to get away with it until there was a retrial.

If you ask Muslims (even so called moderates) if they believe in sharia law over constitutional law the majority of them answer yes. It seems like they might just be waiting till they're politically strong enough in the West to go for this and then they can impose all the death penalties they want, if Great Britain and Western Europe are any indication.

[GravitySucks]

Somebody finally remembered that Carter stopped all Iranians from entering th US during the 70s hostage crisis and had 17,000 of them deported. 

But Trump is crazy and a racist.

http://www.frontpagemag.com/point/261062/carter-banned-iranians-coming-us-during-hostage-daniel-greenfield

[JamesMcDonald]

I agree. I think the key to a reasonable political position lies in some mixture of libertarian, conservative and liberal ideas with a good dose of pragmatism tossed in.

Yes.  Somewhere in there, SciFiAuthor!  You got it.  There is the possibility of a successful political equation.  It's not a unicorn.  It's just hard when 90% + people on the planet are Idiocracy-level morons.

[VtaGeezer]

No, it's not.  Not in America.  Here you are free to join and unjoin.  If that's the law here, they must abide by it - which means that individuals are to be held responsible for their thoughts AS INDIVIDUALS.  If the law does not recognize religion, then discrimination would be no defense at all. 

The FBI says there are an avg of 27 "honor killings" in America by family members of relatives who've violated the Quran strictures for obediance, adultery and rather innocuous "promiscuity".  I saw part of an episode of the CNN crimefighter show some weeks ago about a Muslim father in TX who killed a daughter for refusing an arranged marriage.  These aren't considered Islamic terrorism, but the victims may not have agreed if they could be asked.  The Islamic community is opaque and there are likely many other killings that are never linked to religious punishment by police.

[bateman]

http://freebeacon.com/national-security/congress-to-consider-easing-passage-into-u-s-for-immigrants/

Congress is set to vote on Thursday on what some have called an “unprecedented” right that would allow immigrants easier access to relocate to the United States, according to new legislation offered by a Democratic senator.

“The amendment is intended to be a response to Trump’s statement and thus the category of immigration at the heart of it is clearly immigration from the Muslim world,” said a congressional source apprised of the legislation.

Seriously?

[SciFiAuthor]

It's just hard when 90% + people on the planet are Idiocracy-level morons.

Yep, that's the problem.

[Juan]

So the majority of people who run for office are driven by greed and not altruism.

There's no such thing as altruism.

[JamesMcDonald]

There's no such thing as altruism.

Unless you're a Buddhist.

[bateman]

https://www.washingtonpost.com/politics/jeb-bushs-super-pac-burning-through-money-with-little-to-show-for-it/2015/12/09/0baaa5fe-9df8-11e5-8728-1af6af208198_story.html

The super PAC supporting Jeb Bush is racing through its massive war chest much faster than money is coming in, spending close to $50 ­million in a record blitz that has so far failed to lift the former Florida governor’s sputtering presidential candidacy.

The group, Right to Rise, has already gone through nearly half of the $103 million it brought in during the first half of the year, records show. It raised only about $13 million in the five months that followed, according to a person familiar with the figure.

Ahahahahaha

[nooryisawesome]

According to Bloomberg, the poll â€" which has a 4-percent margin of error â€" shows an astounding 65 percent of Republicans agreed with Trump following his initial proclamation. After hearing detailed arguments from the opposition, 64 percent of the voters still agreed with the real estate mogul, suggesting “despite some conventional wisdom expressed in the last 48 hours, [the proposal] is unlikely to hurt Trump at least in the primary campaign.

Read more: http://dailycaller.com/2015/12/09/poll-two-thirds-of-gop-primary-voters-back-trumps-muslim-immigration-proposal/#ixzz3ttsRXnj5

http://dailycaller.com/2015/12/09/poll-two-thirds-of-gop-primary-voters-back-trumps-muslim-immigration-proposal/

Rubio seems to be solidifying his spot at #2. I think eventually this turns into a Trump vs Rubio primary race. Cruz might also be a factor in certain states.

[area51drone]

The Washington State media is putting on an all out war against Trump, showing the history of American Japanese internment camps and interviewing people who were there, asking them what they thought of Trump's "ideas."  What an out and out misrepresentation of what he's been saying.   I heard a piece on the radio today - I think it was a clip of Dan Rather doing a story on Trump - and again, not saying what he actually said, but implying not just that he wants Muslims in internment camps but also likening Trump to Hitler with references to Jews being rounded up in camps.   The media doesn't realize that their biased commentary will only cement in the minds of Trump supporters that someone like him is what's needed for this country.   

The day where the internet through it's various media forms puts the nail in the coffin of the broadcasters cannot come soon enough.

[GuerrillaUnReal]

How my father and I believe most working white men over 50 view the world currently.

[area51drone]

How my father and I believe most working white men over 50 view the world currently.

I think it might be more of how most working white men over 30 feel.    Something that I don't think has been brought up in this thread is the issue of voter turnout.   I suspect that Trump supporters are going to turn out in droves, spread the word, etc, while I think Clinton is going to have a difficult time getting people excited enough to bother to get up off their asses to vote.  Especially when there is such a groundwell of support for Sanders on the left... they might be as disinclined to vote for her as a Trump supporter would for Jeb.

[nooryisawesome]

How my father and I believe most working white men over 50 view the world currently.

My problem with Trump is that he is a moron. He makes it too easy for the liberal press to hate him and turn him into a super villain. There are ways to frame his viewpoints and control the debate better but he refuses to do it. I think he is Un-elecatble in a general election.

[Yorkshire pud]

The day where the internet through it's various media forms puts the nail in the coffin of the broadcasters cannot come soon enough.

Yeah, Trump would love that; Stalin at al controlled the media. Putin still does: Russian journalists are rounded up and imprisoned regularly for saying things Putin doesn't like. The first amendment thing...