The Other Side of Midnight - Richard C. Hoagland - Live Chat Thread

[GuerrillaUnReal]

No disrespect, you know how much I enjoy Richard but I passed out pretty early last night.

One question. Around 2:40 - 2:50 AM PST, I got woken up by the shittiest most fucking annoying weird... noise? ambient music? nightmare creating noise? music/sound coming out of the DMRN stream. I almost threw my laptop out the window. Anyone else hear this? Am I crazy? Was it HAARP?

[astroguy]

Here's what their not talking about and what they should mention, which would help explain why they are thinking this way.

Pluto doesn't have enough ENERGY TO MAKE THE GEOLOGICAL FORMATIONS IT HAS ON IT'S SURFACE.

At least, that's what I've read and been told. Nothing concrete yet on how there was enough energy to create such a diverse landscape.

There is a significant, substantial difference between "the typical places we look for energy in a planet don't obviously apply here, we need to think more about this and look more deeply" versus "it's impossible for this to be natural, therefore aliens."  I'm sure you weren't going for quite as significant a dichotomy as that, but it's important to understand.

For example, as I mentioned to you before, a tidally locked system shouldn't generate tidal energy.  And yet, there are some models that show that under some circumstances, it can, so that's something that needs to be looked into more now.  There's also the question of when Pluto and Charon did get tidally locked, because before that happened, there should have been significant tidal stresses that generated energy for geologic activity.

[littlechris]

anyone still listening  to the feed, god damn wtf hahaha

Oh yeah the lady. I thought she was reading aloud her sexual fantasies or sumthin. Wasn't really paying attention but she was saying some weird stuff. 

[astroguy]

astroguy and expat are going to be having brain aneurysms when they hear this show

I'm two weeks behind.  I'm basically computer-bound these days mapping the moon's south pole, then north pole, in time for a conference at the end of October, but with Kerry Cassidy's PCTV just starting up, I have a whole new level of crazy to half-listen to while I work.

[SciFiAuthor]

There is a significant, substantial difference between "the typical places we look for energy in a planet don't obviously apply here, we need to think more about this and look more deeply" versus "it's impossible for this to be natural, therefore aliens."  I'm sure you weren't going for quite as significant a dichotomy as that, but it's important to understand.

For example, as I mentioned to you before, a tidally locked system shouldn't generate tidal energy.  And yet, there are some models that show that under some circumstances, it can, so that's something that needs to be looked into more now.  There's also the question of when Pluto and Charon did get tidally locked, because before that happened, there should have been significant tidal stresses that generated energy for geologic activity.

Interesting, so if Charon wasn't tidally locked with Pluto then the stresses would be sufficiently high enough to cause the geologic activity? Wouldn't that also imply that Charon was relatively recently captured by Pluto?

[trostol]

No disrespect, you know how much I enjoy Richard but I passed out pretty early last night.

One question. Around 2:40 - 2:50 AM PST, I got woken up by the shittiest most fucking annoying weird... noise? ambient music? nightmare creating noise? music/sound coming out of the DMRN stream. I almost threw my laptop out the window. Anyone else hear this? Am I crazy? Was it HAARP?

i think that may have been the music they play while the system updates..that was after the lady and the lovecraftian sounding story

[SaucyRossy]

There is a significant, substantial difference between "the typical places we look for energy in a planet don't obviously apply here, we need to think more about this and look more deeply" versus "it's impossible for this to be natural, therefore aliens."  I'm sure you weren't going for quite as significant a dichotomy as that, but it's important to understand.

For example, as I mentioned to you before, a tidally locked system shouldn't generate tidal energy.  And yet, there are some models that show that under some circumstances, it can, so that's something that needs to be looked into more now.  There's also the question of when Pluto and Charon did get tidally locked, because before that happened, there should have been significant tidal stresses that generated energy for geologic activity.

Well I HOPE that there is a good reason for the diverse landscape. One that makes sense and is really cool. I look forward to more and more releases about this as the years go on, because I'm sure this won't be explained overnight.

[SaucyRossy]

Interesting, so if Charon wasn't tidally locked with Pluto then the stresses would be sufficiently high enough to cause the geologic activity? Wouldn't that also imply that Charon was relatively recently captured by Pluto?

Exactly. There are just so many things to think about when you start rolling BACKWARDS through this. 

If Pluto wasn't tidal locked with Charon when it's landscape was being formed, then the second question is why isn't the planet littered with craters? Everything looks fresh, clean, newish.

Albeit. Looks can be deceiving. Astroguy, hope you get I'm just thinking out loud and not making any wild accusations.

[GravitySucks]

Well I HOPE that there is a good reason for the diverse landscape. One that makes sense and is really cool. I look forward to more and more releases about this as the years go on, because I'm sure this won't be explained overnight.

By "overnight" are you really implying it won't be explained by RCH?
APOSTATE

[GravitySucks]

Exactly. There are just so many things to think about when you start rolling BACKWARDS through this. 

If Pluto wasn't tidal locked with Charon when it's landscape was being formed, then the second question is why isn't the planet littered with craters? Everything looks fresh, clean, newish.

Albeit. Looks can be deceiving. Astroguy, hope you get I'm just thinking out loud and not making any wild accusations.

Part of the reason may well be that Pluto doesn't have much mass, hense less of a gravitational pull to cause asteroids/meteorites to come crashing in.  Yhey would already have to be on a collision course.

[GeorgieForPresident2216]

Exactly. There are just so many things to think about when you start rolling BACKWARDS through this. 

If Pluto wasn't tidal locked with Charon when it's landscape was being formed, then the second question is why isn't the planet littered with craters? Everything looks fresh, clean, newish.

Albeit. Looks can be deceiving. Astroguy, hope you get I'm just thinking out loud and not making any wild accusations.

I suppose we don't have much experience looking at solid bodies far outside the asteroid belt.  I know Pluto is itself in the Kuiper belt, but perhaps the dynamics are different out there creating less opportunity for impacts?  I wonder if even without the lack of craters this could still be a very old surface, or perhaps more recently Pluto had a large impact which liquified a large part of its surface? 

[astroguy]

Interesting, so if Charon wasn't tidally locked with Pluto then the stresses would be sufficiently high enough to cause the geologic activity? Wouldn't that also imply that Charon was relatively recently captured by Pluto?

Probably, I haven't done the math.  But pretty much all of the geologic activity on the moons of Jupiter and Saturn that have been mapped in the last two decades are because of tidal stresses caused by Jupiter.  Look at Io if you need evidence of the ability for tidal forces to cause geologic activity.  As for Charon being captured, the idea is that Pluto was struck and Charon formed (and Pluto re-formed) from the impact.

If Pluto wasn't tidal locked with Charon when it's landscape was being formed, then the second question is why isn't the planet littered with craters? Everything looks fresh, clean, newish.

Pluto is littered with craters.  Look pretty much everywhere and anywhere except for Sputnik Planum and the larger Tombaugh Regio.  In fact, this is clearly visible in the flyover movie I made (url: youtube.com/watch?v=Wgl9jJUzITg ... directly linking embeds the video which I don't want to do here).  We don't know if the deficit observed near the north pole (left side about half-way through the video) is due to an actual deficit or the fact the sun was directly overhead (pretty hard to see craters on our moon during a full moon).

Part of the reason may well be that Pluto doesn't have much mass, hense less of a gravitational pull to cause asteroids/meteorites to come crashing in.  Yhey would already have to be on a collision course.

This is the case for most things in the solar system.  Gravitational focusing helps you very little if you're smaller than a gas giant.

[SaucyRossy]

Probably, I haven't done the math.  But pretty much all of the geologic activity on the moons of Jupiter and Saturn that have been mapped in the last two decades are because of tidal stresses caused by Jupiter.  Look at Io if you need evidence of the ability for tidal forces to cause geologic activity.  As for Charon being captured, the idea is that Pluto was struck and Charon formed (and Pluto re-formed) from the impact.
Pluto is littered with craters.  Look pretty much everywhere and anywhere except for Sputnik Planum and the larger Tombaugh Regio.  In fact, this is clearly visible in the flyover movie I made (url: youtube.com/watch?v=Wgl9jJUzITg ... directly linking embeds the video which I don't want to do here).  We don't know if the deficit observed near the north pole (left side about half-way through the video) is due to an actual deficit or the fact the sun was directly overhead (pretty hard to see craters on our moon during a full moon).
This is the case for most things in the solar system.  Gravitational focusing helps you very little if you're smaller than a gas giant.

So we're the headlines and claims in the news another case of exaggeration, in reference to craters?

[SciFiAuthor]

Exactly. There are just so many things to think about when you start rolling BACKWARDS through this. 

If Pluto wasn't tidal locked with Charon when it's landscape was being formed, then the second question is why isn't the planet littered with craters? Everything looks fresh, clean, newish.

Albeit. Looks can be deceiving. Astroguy, hope you get I'm just thinking out loud and not making any wild accusations.

I'll think out loud with you and take it up a notch. Pluto and Charon are probably Kuiper belt objects that were thrown into the outer solar system through some past gravitational interaction with another body. Could that interaction have created the geologic activity? How long ago was that? More, if a non-tidally locked Charon could theoretically cause enough stress and flexing to cause geologic activity, then that could mean that other Kuiper belt objects with large moons could in theory be undergoing similar geologic activity. Could it ever be enough to create conditions similar to Enceladus or Europa where liquid water oceans seem to lurk under the frozen surfaces of those objects? Could there potentially be life in the Kuiper belt so far out from the sun?

[astroguy]

So we're the headlines and claims in the news another case of exaggeration, in reference to craters?

Absolutely YES.  I've complained about this on both my blog and my podcast.  It's crappy media reporting, as usual, with pretty much any subject.

[SciFiAuthor]

Probably, I haven't done the math.  But pretty much all of the geologic activity on the moons of Jupiter and Saturn that have been mapped in the last two decades are because of tidal stresses caused by Jupiter.  Look at Io if you need evidence of the ability for tidal forces to cause geologic activity.  As for Charon being captured, the idea is that Pluto was struck and Charon formed (and Pluto re-formed) from the impact.

Right, but with Jupiter and Saturn you're talking a lot of gravity given how massive those planets are, but with Pluto and Charon it's on a much smaller scale. I suppose the distance between the two would play a major role in how much stress is involved. Regarding the formation of Charon, interesting, I wasn't aware that they were favoring a non-capture origin for it.

Io looks like a pizza. It's an arcology!

[GeorgieForPresident2216]

I'll think out loud with you and take it up a notch. Pluto and Charon are probably Kuiper belt objects that were thrown into the outer solar system through some past gravitational interaction with another body. Could that interaction have created the geologic activity? How long ago was that? More, if a non-tidally locked Charon could theoretically cause enough stress and flexing to cause geologic activity, then that could mean that other Kuiper belt objects with large moons could in theory be undergoing similar geologic activity. Could it ever be enough to create conditions similar to Enceladus or Europa where liquid water oceans seem to lurk under the frozen surfaces of these objects? Could there potentially be life in the Kuiper belt so far out from the sun?

Presuming any object in the Kuiper belt or beyond would have to be on the scale of Pluto (since we haven't detected them yet excepting the couple we know about), and further presuming any interactions significant enough to provide such a dwarf planet a large moon must have occurred billions of years ago, any such system would likely be tidally locked by now.

[SciFiAuthor]

Presuming any object in the Kuiper belt or beyond would have to be on the scale of Pluto (since we haven't detected them yet excepting the couple we know about), and further presuming any interactions significant enough to provide such a dwarf planet a large moon must have occurred billions of years ago, any such system would likely be tidally locked by now.

You just killed all life in the Kuiper belt. Monster.

[GeorgieForPresident2216]

You just killed all life in the Kuiper belt. Monster.

Maybe there could be dynamic interactions between three or more large bodies preventing tidal locking?

[SaucyRossy]

Absolutely YES.  I've complained about this on both my blog and my podcast.  It's crappy media reporting, as usual, with pretty much any subject.

NASA does a terrible job at controlling the message then

[SciFiAuthor]

Maybe there could be dynamic interactions between three or more large bodies preventing tidal locking?

You're right though, I hadn't thought of tidal locking. A multiple object system preventing tidal locking, hmm, maybe the Kuiper belt life survived after all.

[Noorynoid]

So this is what happens when I'm away...

[GravitySucks]

NASA does a terrible job at controlling the message then

Having worked at or with most of the centers over a 32 year career (after 8 years in the USAF), i would have to say that they are getting worse, not better.

[GravitySucks]

So this is what happens when I'm away...

Looks like sacred geometry to me, but the pics of the green chicks were much better (for the most part)

[GeorgieForPresident2216]

You're right though, I hadn't thought of tidal locking. A multiple object system preventing tidal locking, hmm, maybe the Kuiper belt life survived after all.

There's life on this tidal loch.

[SciFiAuthor]

NASA does a terrible job at controlling the message then

Information drift is actually a huge problem in all of science and technology. I'll read about some advance in robotics that's relatively small but interesting, but once the media gets ahold of it then it conflates into a sensationalist story  that overstates what the advance actually was and then finally Drudge links to it painting it as an impending robotic Armageddon.

[astroguy]

Information drift is actually a huge problem in all of science and technology. I'll read about some advance in robotics that's relatively small but interesting, but once the media gets ahold of it then it conflates into a sensationalist story  that overstates what the advance actually was and then finally Drudge links to it painting it as an impending robotic Armageddon.

^^^ THIS!!

It's a known problem and is why people who "know" never go to press releases and will always go to the original papers.  This is a problem with any new mission because there are no papers yet to go to.  The first real crater presentation on Pluto/Charon won't be until November, then December, and paper submitted in January.

[SciFiAuthor]

^^^ THIS!!

It's a known problem and is why people who "know" never go to press releases and will always go to the original papers.  This is a problem with any new mission because there are no papers yet to go to.  The first real crater presentation on Pluto/Charon won't be until November, then December, and paper submitted in January.

Right, science takes time. It's a shame really, because once the scientists have a handle on a place like Pluto, it's 5 years after the mission and old news, so the media in general doesn't report the big discoveries. They also underreport as well, especially in biotechnology. They'll report something that they can juice up but if it's just some seemingly small advance or something the reporter doesn't understand, it goes unreported despite the enormous implications of the discovery.

[SaucyRossy]

That's an interesting point. Before, newspapers were held accountable to the enth degree. I worked for a large paper right before the industry took a nose dive and the accountability and stress on getting our facts right the first time were IMMENSE and I worked in the sports department.

Now, blogs copy, paste, reword, and write a new sensationalist headline all in hopes of getting hits. There is ZERO accountability on the Internet. ZERO recourse. And absolutely no one cares deeply about the quality of work they do. So I understand your frustrations Stuart.

[astroguy]

So I understand your frustrations Stuart.