The Other Side of Midnight - Richard C. Hoagland - Live Chat Thread

[trostol]

So how long and what will RCH claim the water is from

[shell88]

Should be a good show tonight!!  Richard is going to go completely crazy over Nasa's confirmation of water on Mars.  Let the possibilities begin!!!

[zeebo]

Should be a good show tonight!!  Richard is going to go completely crazy over Nasa's confirmation of water on Mars.  Let the possibilities begin!!!

After Hoagie heard the news, his reaction ...

[scottydawg]

Most people are too stupid or apathetic to care about real science.

DING!DING!DING! James, very sad but true! I grew up in a house where my parents spent the money for the deluxe set of the World Book Encyclopedia. I loved it too, read all the volumes from A to Z! My dad was a FCC TV & Radio Broadcast rated engineer, and my mom knows COBAL and FORTRAN computer language. When I was younger I was lucky enough in summer school to see the Apollo 11 launch on the old 20 inch black and white TV they rolled into the classroom. I would watch all the launches, landings and splashdown recoveries.
Later thanks to my grandparents connections with the county government I was privileged enough to go behind the scenes at the county arena and meet the Apollo 14 astronauts. For me at 14 years old these WERE my Super Heroes! I can still remember the names of all seven of the Mercury Astronauts. My 10th grade History teacher Mr. Kazmerick was a disabled Marine Vet who served in the Pacific. He told us the REAL stories of storming islands in the Pacific.
Nowadays most people don't even know who the Secretary of State was under George Bush Jr! And don't even get me started on the mind numbing campaigns to make the 90% of idiots keep reelecting the same old crooks to office! There should be an IQ test at the polling stations. If you don't score at least a 95 they should give your a coloring book and send you back home.
NASA has to beg for money for probes and manned Spacecraft. But Cities get raped every year to support multi Million Dollar  NFL teams that employ players who turn out to be druggies, thugs and abusers of females. But Who Cares! They scored the Winning Touchdown! As the politicians know ya gotta keep separating the Schmucks from their Bucks! Give them a big Song & Dance, and blow enough Sunshine up their ass to keep the money flowing into the coffers. And Wave the flag to keep the War Machine going!
Yes I'd love to go to Mars, even if I would only live 5 years. It would get me away from the idiots, Imbeciles and Assholes on this hunk of Rock that are pacified by Beer, Boobs and Ball Games!! 

[norland2424]

So how long and what will RCH claim the water is from

Obviously its tears from the face of mars on Cydonia, or from the pope leaving the torsion field of DC

[trostol]

Obviously its tears from the face of mars on Cydonia, or from the pope leaving the torsion field of DC

i was thinking run off from some energy plant lol

[scottydawg]

Time to make a pitcher MARSgaritas tonight for the show! Mars already has the salt!

[GravitySucks]

Time to make a pitcher MARSgaritas tonight for the show! Mars already has the salt!

I heard it was 19.5% salt

[Étouffée]

Should be a good show tonight!!  Richard is going to go completely crazy over Nasa's confirmation of water on Mars.  Let the possibilities begin!!!

An archology sprung a leak; or melted.

[albrecht]

I heard it was 19.5% salt

"salt has crystalline structures. What does that remind of, hmmm,  archologies on the moon perhaps? At 19.5?"

[chefist]

I'm sure Art is going to mention Martian H2O...but I'm more interested in RCH's "model"! 

Will RCH claim it is run-off from underground Martian water-polo? 

[trostol]

should be a doozy

"Published by Dr. Robin Falkov
LOOK AT THE DATE -" Placitas, NM, 07/19/2000 - Do YOU think this is new news? Once again, Hoagland is FIRST!"
http://www.enterprisemission.com/press-water.html
We will cover this on Other Side of Midnight TONIGHT. Othersideofmidnight.com Airs LIVE for free12-2am Pacific.

[expat]

NO HE WAS NOT FIRST, DAMMIT. LOOK AT THE DATE OF THIS:

http://www.space.com/8642-flashback-water-mars-announced-10-years.html

NASA: June 2000, Terra Sirenum
Hoagland: July 2000, Arabia

[chefist]

NO HE WAS NOT FIRST, DAMMIT. LOOK AT THE DATE OF THIS:

http://www.space.com/8642-flashback-water-mars-announced-10-years.html

NASA: June 2000, Terra Sirenum
Hoagland: July 2000, Arabia

THE UNDERGROUND WATER POLO DAMMIT! 

[norland2424]

THE UNDERGROUND WATER POLO DAMMIT! 

Hahah its the face of mars crying over the nuclear war that killed the planet off  : .

[littlechris]

Will RCH claim it is run-off from underground Martian water-polo? 

Lol, I don't listen that often but I will listen tonight. Should be fun.  Braaaappps!!!!!!!!!!

[scottydawg]

Just saw this on Reddit!
http://i.imgur.com/E4jeTmM.jpg
Gotta bottle it and sell it to them Astronauts coming up here!

[trostol]

NO HE WAS NOT FIRST, DAMMIT. LOOK AT THE DATE OF THIS:

http://www.space.com/8642-flashback-water-mars-announced-10-years.html

NASA: June 2000, Terra Sirenum
Hoagland: July 2000, Arabia

i believe you lol just was pointing out what was posted on his FB lol

all and all he needs a break from the craziness and needs another book person on to talk to lol

[chefist]

I'm a hard scientist...now I know that Art doesn't have any guest claiming to turn lead into gold...so as a chemist I shouldn't be insulted...

BUT...BROTHER SCIENTISTS! ....this is all modern mythology in my opinion...BUT, with a small percent of truth mixed in...I hope when you challenge RCH or Art it's with such a filter! 

I've been an Arthur C Clark fan since I was a kid...he really was never the "you're an idiot' type of guy...

[trostol]

this seems as good as anywhere...i was doing some moving of things and i found an omnibus ...S Andrew Swann...Moreau series..any one know if it is any good lol

[astroguy]

Mike Bara is also claiming that he, Hoagland, and Efrain Palermo discovered this in 2001 (odd that he missed his own "discovery" a year earlier, per Expat's post).  Efrain posted on my Facebook page linking to a 2001 presentation he gave and said "make your own decision."

Unfortunately, the reason he's wrong (he was looking at OTHER features) is subtle and not prone to an obvious quick link.  It's also a subtlety that may not be understood by many people, though I tried to by adding a table.  Here's what I wrote in response:

"You are talking about Slope Streaks, Efrain. SS are very different from Recurring Slope Lineae (RSL), which are what the release today was about. RSL form in low albedo areas where there's also dust, SS form in high albedo areas. SS are bigger than RSL. SS do not incrementally lengthen like RSL. McEwen et al. (Science, 2011) was the first paper to suggest that RSLs are due to active surface water. Attached is Table 2 from their paper detailing the differences between SS and RSL. Considering that RSLs are a maximum of a few meters across, and MOC's pixel scale was a maximum of about 1.5 m/px, the stuff you were talking about were NOT RSLs."

Attached to this is the table I referred to, showing that these are completely different features.  Efrain responded and ignored what I pointed out that nothing about SSs and RSLs is the same.

And FWIW, I didn't know this information off the top of my head.  A colleague where I work studies RSLs as his main line of research.  I talked with him today to understand the difference between RSL and SS and then responded to Efrain because I didn't know the timeline of this stuff, either.

And as a side-note, this is relevant because I just saw that Efrain will be on OSOM tonight.  So if he claims they are the same, or that RSLs are just smaller versions of SSs, he is wrong.

[starrmtn001]

NO HE WAS NOT FIRST, DAMMIT. LOOK AT THE DATE OF THIS:

http://www.space.com/8642-flashback-water-mars-announced-10-years.html

NASA: June 2000, Terra Sirenum
Hoagland: July 2000, Arabia

Thank you, expat!  I knew I had heard NASA announce they had discovered water on Mars many years ago.  However, I was doubting myself and that has been bugging me all day.  Thank you, again, for the post and the link.

[SciFiAuthor]

I'm a hard scientist...now I know that Art doesn't have any guest claiming to turn lead into gold...so as a chemist I shouldn't be insulted...

You are technically incorrect sir. Michio Kaku and his nuclear transmutation mumbo jumbo. 

BUT...BROTHER SCIENTISTS! ....this is all modern mythology in my opinion...BUT, with a small percent of truth mixed in...I hope when you challenge RCH or Art it's with such a filter! 

I've been an Arthur C Clark fan since I was a kid...he really was never the "you're an idiot' type of guy...

Sure, I get the modern mythology. At least RCH also has a steady supply of hard science guests. Art needs more of those, science guests seem taboo on his show lately.   

[SaucyRossy]

Mike Bara is also claiming that he, Hoagland, and Efrain Palermo discovered this in 2001 (odd that he missed his own "discovery" a year earlier, per Expat's post).  Efrain posted on my Facebook page linking to a 2001 presentation he gave and said "make your own decision."

Unfortunately, the reason he's wrong (he was looking at OTHER features) is subtle and not prone to an obvious quick link.  It's also a subtlety that may not be understood by many people, though I tried to by adding a table.  Here's what I wrote in response:

"You are talking about Slope Streaks, Efrain. SS are very different from Recurring Slope Lineae (RSL), which are what the release today was about. RSL form in low albedo areas where there's also dust, SS form in high albedo areas. SS are bigger than RSL. SS do not incrementally lengthen like RSL. McEwen et al. (Science, 2011) was the first paper to suggest that RSLs are due to active surface water. Attached is Table 2 from their paper detailing the differences between SS and RSL. Considering that RSLs are a maximum of a few meters across, and MOC's pixel scale was a maximum of about 1.5 m/px, the stuff you were talking about were NOT RSLs."

Attached to this is the table I referred to, showing that these are completely different features.  Efrain responded and ignored what I pointed out that nothing about SSs and RSLs is the same.

And FWIW, I didn't know this information off the top of my head.  A colleague where I work studies RSLs as his main line of research.  I talked with him today to understand the difference between RSL and SS and then responded to Efrain because I didn't know the timeline of this stuff, either.

And as a side-note, this is relevant because I just saw that Efrain will be on OSOM tonight.  So if he claims they are the same, or that RSLs are just smaller versions of SSs, he is wrong.

Is what efrain wrote about in 2001 running liquid water?

Seems like semantics make for s great pissing contest in science. But running water is the major point of the press release today, is it not?

[astroguy]

Is what efrain wrote about in 2001 running liquid water?

Bara claims that what NASA released today is exactly what he/Hoagland/Palermo wrote in 2001.  Efrain did not say that on FB specifically, but his paper is entitled, "Martian Water Stains or Dust Slides?"  In it, he argues that dark streaks ("Slope Streaks" as they are known in the science literature) are caused by water.

But he was not the first to say that these features were caused by water.  For example, here's a conference abstract from 1998 where they suggest water as an origin.

AND, slope streaks are not recurring slope lineae, which is what the press release was about today.

[SaucyRossy]

Bara claims that what NASA released today is exactly what he/Hoagland/Palermo wrote in 2001.  Efrain did not say that on FB specifically, but his paper is entitled, "Martian Water Stains or Dust Slides?"  In it, he argues that dark streaks ("Slope Streaks" as they are known in the science literature) are caused by water.

But he was not the first to say that these features were caused by water.  For example, here's a conference abstract from 1998 where they suggest water as an origin.

AND, slope streaks are not recurring slope lineae, which is what the press release was about today.

Right, ok. So you're correcting their terminology and science which doesn't relate specifically to today's paper,  but not their main point, that they wrote about evidence for flowing liquid water on Mars?

I don't care who's first. Hell. People thought there were canals on Mars way way back. I'm just saying, you're not saying they had the wrong conclusion.

[SaucyRossy]

Dropping this on bellgab first. This will be a three hour special, with the Andy weir interview being a one hour interview in the third hour and the first two hours being Mars centric with surprise guests.

[astroguy]

Right, ok. So you're correcting their terminology and science which doesn't relate specifically to today's paper,  but not their main point, that they wrote about evidence for flowing liquid water on Mars?

I don't care who's first. Hell. People thought there were canals on Mars way way back. I'm just saying, you're not saying they had the wrong conclusion.

Correct.

What I'm complaining (sigh ... I hate to be thought of as a complainer) about is Mike Bara specifically claiming that everything NASA said today, Mike (et al.) came up with first.  Mike stated:  "NASA is trying to steal my work & Richard C. Hoagland's & Effrain Palermo from 15 years ago. Don't let them do it. Bombard the mainstream sites ..."  Before that he wrote: "I guarantee you whatever NASA announces tomorrow has already been revealed in one of my two books on Mars."

When I wrote about this on my Facebook page (Mike's claim), Efrain responded seeming to try to back of what Mike was saying, by writing:  "read the Martian Seeps paper I presented at the Mars Convention at Stanford University in 2001, and then reread their "new" announcement and then make your own decision" and linking to his paper.  That's what prompted my earlier post on this thread pointing out that he was NOT the first person and that these are different features.

Richard seems to be doing this a little bit though, too (not nearly to the extent as Mike, so I could be misinterpreting -- see attachment)*.  Saying that "NASA" dismissed his conclusion of water on Mars a decade ago ... that's just not true.  As you said, plenty of people for over a century have been talking about water on Mars.

Today's announcement was another step in that path.

Claims that NASA is back-tracking on previous stuff or "confirming" something that was "first" thought of by someone else a decade ago is what I find annoying.

*Edited to Add: Richard does have a habit of doing this, too, just as Mike does: Claiming that "NASA is confirming what we first wrote about years ago, long before anyone in the mainstream."  But, we'll see what happens during his show.  If he doesn't say that tonight, I give a pre-emptive apology.  If he does, then I sit here doing a face palm.

[SciFiAuthor]

Dropping this on bellgab first. This will be a three hour special, with the Andy weir interview being a one hour interview in the third hour and the first two hours being Mars centric with surprise guests.

You put Weir at the end just to make me stay up! Sleeeeeeeep!

Grr, I'll just roll an extra one.

[norland2424]

Dropping this on bellgab first. This will be a three hour special, with the Andy weir interview being a one hour interview in the third hour and the first two hours being Mars centric with surprise guests.

is this tonight rossy?