The Other Side of Midnight - Richard C. Hoagland - Live Chat Thread

[K_Dubb]

Do you know how brilliant you have to be to be a PhD in physics? What do his classmates and co-workers think of him.

I wonder if he was always odd or it was gradual or he just went a bit off the deep end and said 'what the fuck, let's have some fun and sell some books!'

You heard the man, it's the conferences and the poon.

[zeebo]

Bring back Dr Drunko!

He kind of reminded me of Richard Alan Miller, one of my fave guests on these shows.  The odd outbursts of laughter, the casual mentions of wild claims, the total ease of jumping from one fringe topic to another.  Great stuff.

[Dyna-X]

You heard the man, it's the conferences and the poon.

If there were any intel security folks monitoring, I bet they were peeing in their pants.  He was at Sandia National Labs and had a "Q" Clearance at one point, add alcohol  and torsion fields and who knows what will happen.

[Dr. MD MD]

He kind of reminded me of Richard Alan Miller, one of my fave guests on these shows.  The odd outbursts of laughter, the casual mentions of wild claims, the total ease of jumping from one fringe topic to another.  Great stuff.

Miller is just a pastiche of hippy, new age philosophies and conspiracy theories. That's why he's constantly laughing, because he knows he's just making it up as he goes and can't believe he's still getting away with it. Cha-ching, suckers! 

[Nobody]

Somehow the first guest, even after repeatedly being interrupted by and ignored by the host, then talked over by an inebriated 'mystery' guest - still sounded like he thought he was on a legitimate radio show.

Did Hoagland ever mention a website for the first guest?  I missed his/her introduction and am still trying to work out why s/he was even on the show. 

[Dyna-X]

Miller is just a pastiche of hippy, new age philosophies and conspiracy theories. That's why he's constantly laughing, because he knows he's just making it up as he goes and can't believe he's still getting away with it. Cha-ching, suckers! 

He's like the Illuminatus Court Jester.

[zeebo]

Miller is just a pastiche of hippy, new age philosophies and conspiracy theories. ...

Maybe so but anyone that can riff equally on the holographic universe, CIA conspiracies, and organic farming is pretty good! 

[zeebo]

Did Hoagland ever mention a website for the first guest?  I missed his/her introduction and am still trying to work out why s/he was even on the show. 

I didn't get any info.  I just know his/her name is Kelly, which doesn't help clear up the his/her thing.  Actually had some interesting ideas imho and would have liked to hear a bit more.  Hoagie framed the guest as a 'citizen scientist' who had figured out there was odd doin's on Ceres or such. 

[Nobody]

One time in May or June 2008 Ian Punnett kicked a guest off after one segment and explained that if a radio host can not wing a 3.5 hour show off the cuff then maybe they are in the wrong business. greatly.

There was a radio announcer in the 1940s who was covering the arrival of President Roosevelt at some conference or other.  The announcer was telling the audience about how Roosevelt's ship was approaching the quay...when it suddenly stopped.

For 30-40 minutes, the announcer "filled" by describing the weather, what the conference hoped to achieve, and anything else he could think of while the ship simply sat there in the water 200 feet from shore.  Suddenly the ship started up again, moved forward, and finally quayed.

When Roosevelt came off the ship, the announcer asked him what had happened on board to cause the ship to stop just short of the quay.  Roosevelt replied, "I just wanted to see how long you could talk about nothing."

Alas, Hoagland's problem isn't that he is an inarticulate speaker: it's that he lacks the ability to make any sense, to make any sort of cogent, rational argument.  His constantly trying to pass himself off as some sort of "cutting-edge" scientist only serves to matters things worse.

He's like the chap standing around yelling on the street corner outside the off-licence.  Sure, Hoagland's voice isn't as loud, and he might have a slightly better vocabulary than Mr. Shouty, but your chances of gaining anything in the way of useful information are exactly the same.

[Nobody]

I didn't get any info.  I just know his/her name is Kelly, which doesn't help clear up the his/her thing.

Frankly, after appearing on Hoagland's programme, I can't blame him/her for wanting to conceal his/her identity.

Actually had some interesting ideas imho and would have liked to hear a bit more. 

S/he sounded like one of the saner guests on the show, anyway.  I just couldn't work out the "why should I care about what this person has to say" bit.

Brandenburg, at least, has his doctorate, although between his bonkers ideas and his rampant drunkeness (this was by no means his first appearance on a chat show whilst sloshed), he has me wondering if the university that conferred it will be rescinding it soon.

[CronkitesGhost]

There was a radio announcer in the 1940s who was covering the arrival of President Roosevelt at some conference or other.  The announcer was telling the audience about how Roosevelt's ship was approaching the quay...when it suddenly stopped.

For 30-40 minutes, the announcer "filled" by describing the weather, what the conference hoped to achieve, and anything else he could think of while the ship simply sat there in the water 200 feet from shore.  Suddenly the ship started up again, moved forward, and finally quayed.

When Roosevelt came off the ship, the announcer asked him what had happened on board to cause the ship to stop just short of the quay.  Roosevelt replied, "I just wanted to see how long you could talk about nothing."

Alas, Hoagland's problem isn't that he is an inarticulate speaker: it's that he lacks the ability to make any sense, to make any sort of cogent, rational argument.  His constantly trying to pass himself off as some sort of "cutting-edge" scientist only serves to matters things worse.

He's like the chap standing around yelling on the street corner outside the off-licence.  Sure, Hoagland's voice isn't as loud, and he might have a slightly better vocabulary than Mr. Shouty, but your chances of gaining anything in the way of useful information are exactly the same.

I love Hoagie, he fascinates me. He may have some form of mental illness but I really think he just has a personality disorder, most human beings have a personality disorder or three, for relatively normal people we just call it our personality. There's no doubt he's part con man, the selling himself as a legitimate avant garde scientist and truth teller, that fills a deep psychological and emotional need to be acclaimed and respected by others, to be a special person. Most people earn respect and acclaim by years of hard work beginning in childhood. He obviously didn't or couldn't do that. He's like those people who lie about their military service and heroics, they fool people for years and sometimes for a lifetime, they self educate themselves about the military and the war they claim they served in to the point they can deceive those who were actually there in combat. Flim flam man.  My question with him and others like him is how aware they are of it. I assume some are very aware of it and others can't discern the reality from the fantasy while others after years of deluding others ultimately delude themselves. I think that is Hoagie, he now truly believes he is the real deal.

What makes Hoagie entertaining and fascinating are his affectations, they make him kind of charming and bizarre. And then there's the Hoagie look, his physical appearance, it's perfect, perfectly ridiculous. If he looked like George Noory he'd lose most of his appeal to me. He looks like those old gigolos in soap operas and old movies who prey on wealthy dowagers by pretending to be European nobility, Hoagie as the last living heir of the Grand Viscount of Moldavia.

[Nobody]

I love Hoagie, he fascinates me. He may have some form of mental illness but I really think he just has a personality disorder,

I think it is very generous of you to say Hoagland "may have some form of mental illness," thereby giving him the benefit of the doubt, even at this late date.

Speaking for myself, I would be happy to bet any amount of money that Hoagland does indeed suffer from mental illness.  If being as consistently wrong as Hoagland has been, not just over months or years, but decades, yet failing to acknowledge fault of any kind does not constitute mental illness, I do not know what does.

Sure, everyone makes mistakes.  It is Hoagland's consistently making mistakes and refusing to clean up his act that moves him from "extremely self-confident" to "there is something seriously wrong upstairs" in my view.

There's no doubt he's part con man,

None whatsoever.  When your own publisher says you are:

...a unique mixture of amateur scientist, genius inventor, scam artist, and performer, blending true, legitimate speculative science with his own extrapolations, tall tales, and inflations.

..there is little doubt that you are only on a nodding acquaintance with the truth (at best).  I mean, your publisher is the fellow who is supposed to be talking you up.  :

the selling himself as a legitimate avant garde scientist and truth teller, that fills a deep psychological and emotional need to be acclaimed and respected by others, to be a special person.

I agree entirely: half of Hoagland's existence is spent trying to convince people how worthy of respect he is.

The problem is that Hoagland spends the other half engaged in grubbing for money and begging for help, activities that mark him as a low-rent type worthy of very little respect indeed.

All that business begging listeners to get his dog airlifted from Florida to New Mexico?  That did not bespeak wealth and influence.  That was the tale of a man with no money and even less influence who wanted something for nothing.  Worse, if he really knew all those Famous Dead People as well as he never-endingly claims, a phone call to the Asimov/Clarke/Sagan/Roddenberry estate would easily have gotten him all the assistance he (claimed he) needed.

Hoagland lies and doesn't realise (or simply doesn't care) how transparent his lies are and he does it over and over again.  This is not a recipe for success, even in the entertainment industry, and especially not in an age where anything you ever said can be quoted right back at you.

(It is a recipe for great unintentional comedy, however, and isn't that the best kind of comedy?)

Most people earn respect and acclaim by years of hard work beginning in childhood. He obviously didn't or couldn't do that.

At one point in the not-too-distant past, Hoagland was earning a decent living (well, a living, anyway) giving talks on cruise ships and at conferences.  I am under the impression that a) his overbearing personality and b) his complete unwillingness to cover new ground and change things up a bit has made him persona non grata on the cruise/lecture circuit for some time now. 

A speaker, even an excellent speaker, can only give the same talk so many times.  Put another way: clever people realise when their act has gone stale and do something new.  At this point in his life, I don't think Hoagland can bring himself to do anything new (he is, after all, 72 years old, an age at which most people have long-since retired).  Therefore, he is stuck in a "career" that consists solely of hustling nickels and dimes from the gullible after everyone else has washed their hands of him, either because they don't care for being talked down to or because Hoagland bores them silly with his fake scientist act that even George Noory, George Noory), grew tired of and ordered removed.

My question with him and others like him is how aware they are of it. I assume some are very aware of it and others can't discern the reality from the fantasy while others after years of deluding others ultimately delude themselves. I think that is Hoagie, he now truly believes he is the real deal.

Real deal or not, I don't mind Hoagland deluding himself as much as I mind him trying to fool other people into believing he has something worthwhile to offer them besides entertainment, full stop.

Science is science; speculation is speculation.  I don't begrudge Hoagland speculating on the Story of the Universe so long as he calls it speculation and not science.  However, just as you say, Hoagland feels the "need to be acclaimed and respected."  Being thought of merely as someone who invents things off the top of his head (i.e. an entertainer) is not sufficient for Hoagland; if he isn't immediately declared the Smartest Guy in the Room, he gets cranky and starts pouting.

He looks like those old gigolos in soap operas and old movies who prey on wealthy dowagers by pretending to be European nobility, Hoagie as the last living heir of the Grand Viscount of Moldavia.

Your ideas concerning Hoagland are far more exalted than mine.  If I had to compare Hoagland to anyone, living or dead, it would have to be the small-time conman the Duke of Bridgewater* from Huckleberry Finn.






*Yes, I do know that the other, older con man was around Hoagland's present age.  However, the Duke of Bridgewater was sometimes addressed as "Bilgewater," the product that Hoagland is always flogging on his show; this makes the Duke, not the Dauphin, a perfect fit.

[astroguy]

Can someone direct me to a stream of the show that is decent?  The kiyq.org player keeps hiccuping which destroys my recording of the program after I go to sleep and can't babysit it.

That in mind ... anyone happen to record last night's, and last weekend's they want to share? 

[Nobody]

Can someone direct me to a stream of the show that is decent? 

If the fault lies in the KIYQ player rather than the stream, here is the URL for the stream itself: http://65.156.51.154:8000/stream (courtesy of Logan-5)

Otherwise, you can try WBCQ at: http://www.splatterbox.us:7415/listen.pls

[PaulAtreides]

Enough about the damn dog already.

[K_Dubb]

It strikes me that, while the characterizations are always delightful, much of the criticism leveled at Hoagie is inherently contradictory.  I don't think you can simultaneously denounce him as a con man while mocking the modest scale of his con.  No doubt Hoagie embodies contradictions like most of us, but it is with an eye to clarifying these that I have created this chart, with my own plot:

[expat]

I think it's probably true that Hoagland is on the shit-list of most paranormal conference organizers, and the reason is simple-- he consistently overruns his allotted time. His arrogance is such that he thinks what he has to say (for the umpteenth time) is more fascinating than what anybody else has to say.

Have you ever wondered why he's never been interviewed for Ancient Aliens--even when the topic is right in his wheelhouse? It's arrogance, again. He won't appear on any TV show without getting a credit as associate producer and getting right of review. Plus if they want him to be anywhere other than chez lui, he demands first class trav for him and Robin.

Hoagland is even wrong about being wrong. He's been told over and over that his math on "Von Braun's Secret" is hopelessly wrong. He acknowledges it but refuses to correct it. He has said "Yes I made a mistake but the correct answer still implies that Von Braun knew about anti-gravity." The thing is, IT DOESN'T. Not in a million years.

[zeebo]

...Being thought of merely as someone who invents things off the top of his head (i.e. an entertainer) is not sufficient for Hoagland; if he isn't immediately declared the Smartest Guy in the Room, he gets cranky and starts pouting.

Alternately he interprets any serious challenge as others being "threatened" by "the truth", thus reinforcing his own intellectual superiority, as well as his own status as noble crusader.  It's a pretty slick rhetorical judo-flip.

[chefist]

Alternately he interprets any serious challenge as others being "threatened" by "the truth", thus reinforcing his own intellectual superiority, as well as his own status as noble crusader.  It's a pretty slick rhetorical judo-flip.

It was a fun night though...the guest was so drunk he ignored all of Hoagie's attempts to control the conversation and attention! Ha! 

[CronkitesGhost]

Richard Grossinger, the founder of North Atlantic Books, writes that Monuments became the most successful title published by North Atlantic, and that at its peak the book sold over 2000 copies per month. Grossinger also reports that Hoagland wrote much of the book while in Los Angeles county jail.

lol what was he locked up in the LA County Jail for?

[K_Dubb]

lol what was he locked up in the LA County Jail for?

It has been reported here that he fabricated a license plate on his car to avoid the fee, but I have no source to cite.

Edit: here's the gist of the story I remember http://www.abovetopsecret.com/forum/thread915597/pg1, supposedly extracted from this https://www.richardgrossinger.com/2010/03/the-north-atlantic-books-list-2-categories/, but that text does not, in fact, appear in the source.

[CronkitesGhost]

I think it's probably true that Hoagland is on the shit-list of most paranormal conference organizers, and the reason is simple-- he consistently overruns his allotted time. His arrogance is such that he thinks what he has to say (for the umpteenth time) is more fascinating than what anybody else has to say.

Have you ever wondered why he's never been interviewed for Ancient Aliens--even when the topic is right in his wheelhouse? It's arrogance, again. He won't appear on any TV show without getting a credit as associate producer and getting right of review. Plus if they want him to be anywhere other than chez lui, he demands first class trav for him and Robin.

Hoagland is even wrong about being wrong. He's been told over and over that his math on "Von Braun's Secret" is hopelessly wrong. He acknowledges it but refuses to correct it. He has said "Yes I made a mistake but the correct answer still implies that Von Braun knew about anti-gravity." The thing is, IT DOESN'T. Not in a million years.

That's what makes him interesting - the delusional grandiosity. Coast has hundreds of fraud guests on peddling woo and pseudoscience, 95% of them are run of the mill dolts masquerading as researchers. Among the paranormal set Hoagie's a grand diva. I'm sure he's made himself persona non gratas, he is insufferable. My absolute favorite part of the Hoagie act is when he scolds guests for being unprofessional. He's a high maintenance crazy bitch. America's oldest 'fuck boy'.

lol paranormal cruises were a thing?

I shouldn't be amazed but I still am that the whole paranormal industry exists. People want to believe, they suspend their disbelief, it's similar to the WWE.

[CronkitesGhost]

It has been reported here that he fabricated a license plate on his car to avoid the fee, but I have no source to cite.

Edit: here's the gist of the story I remember http://www.abovetopsecret.com/forum/thread915597/pg1, supposedly extracted from this https://www.richardgrossinger.com/2010/03/the-north-atlantic-books-list-2-categories/, but that text does not, in fact, appear in the source.

he was apprehended in Berkeley when stopped for having a cardboard rear license plate

can't believe in the era of reality TV that nobody has made a documentary or series on Hoagland.

i'm guessing that he's living in something close to a shack now in the Land of Enchantment. seems to have made some money in his time but probably all squandered. has to beg for money to care for his sick dog.

[albrecht]

It has been reported here that he fabricated a license plate on his car to avoid the fee, but I have no source to cite.

Edit: here's the gist of the story I remember http://www.abovetopsecret.com/forum/thread915597/pg1, supposedly extracted from this https://www.richardgrossinger.com/2010/03/the-north-atlantic-books-list-2-categories/, but that text does not, in fact, appear in the source.

This is basically what I've heard about the "unfortunate misunderstanding," as RCH has said. I also recall RCH claiming that the Sheriff let him use the intercom system to broadcast to other inmates and use office typewriter to write his book. I can't source this or if even my memory is accurate. There are so many stories, feuds and "changing narratives," to use a political term.

The paper-plate wouldn't surprise- nor would the allegation of using someone else's CC. The prior is a well know conspiracy/sovereign citizen deal ("the state has no authority over me.") Like the "papers" SDM is "filing" or has promoted in his anti-tax schemes. As for the CC, a common crime or "misunderstanding."

[K_Dubb]

can't believe in the era of reality TV that nobody has made a documentary or series on Hoagland.

i'm guessing that he's living in something close to a shack now in the Land of Enchantment. seems to have made some money in his time but probably all squandered. has to beg for money to care for his sick dog.

Well now, the dog makes an interesting study.  IIRC, Robin couldn't drive to Florida to rescue it for health reasons.  Hoagie didn't say why he couldn't go.  Nor did he say how they were eventually reunited.

I would have driven, damn the consequences, but his first instinct was to get somebody else to fix his problem.  I really wonder what happened.  If Hoagie actually sucked it up and drove, there's your road trip movie!

Last night Hoagie asked, rather aggressively, if Dr. Drunko was on twitter, failing to mention that his is rarely used.  The Dr's response is one I'll gladly steal:  "I had a nightmare the other night where I was hooked up to a device that broadcast every spontaneous, ill-considered thought to the world" (my paraphrase).  If Hoagie did make the trip, and figured out how to wrangle a PPV sort of deal on periscope or something, I'd reach for my wallet.

[CronkitesGhost]

Alternately he interprets any serious challenge as others being "threatened" by "the truth", thus reinforcing his own intellectual superiority, as well as his own status as noble crusader.  It's a pretty slick rhetorical judo-flip.

The Wizard of the Torsion Field is no longer a wizard if he admits he's wrong

[albrecht]

Well now, the dog makes an interesting study.  IIRC, Robin couldn't drive to Florida to rescue it for health reasons.  Hoagie didn't say why he couldn't go.  Nor did he say how they were eventually reunited.

I would have driven, damn the consequences, but his first instinct was to get somebody else to fix his problem.  I really wonder what happened.  If Hoagie actually sucked it up and drove, there's your road trip movie!

Last night Hoagie asked, rather aggressively, if Dr. Drunko was on twitter, failing to mention that his is rarely used.  The Dr's response is one I'll gladly steal:  "I had a nightmare the other night where I was hooked up to a device that broadcast every spontaneous, ill-considered thought to the world" (my paraphrase).  If Hoagie did make the trip, and figured out how to wrangle a PPV sort of deal on periscope or something, I'd reach for my wallet.

It would almost be "Smokey and The Bandit"-esque. A madcap adventure with an angry southern police forces chasing him, fake paper-plate license plate, and smuggling a dog. With truckers, loyal listeners to C2C and so familiar with RCH, blocking and helping him with their CBs and HAM communications to outwit the sheriff and get his dog back to New Mexico. Various waitresses at roadside cafes and truck stops would give free food and sigh, longingly, at his flowing locks and bolo-ties and his sweet talk about 19.5 and torsion. I would love to take you to dinner my dear but it is "not in the model" at this time as I must out-race Sheriff Roscoe and save my dog!

[K_Dubb]

It would almost be "Smokey and The Bandit"-esque. A madcap adventure with an angry southern police forces chasing him, fake paper-plate license plate, and smuggling a dog. With truckers, loyal listeners to C2C and so familiar with RCH, blocking and helping him with their CBs and HAM communications to outwit the sheriff and get his dog back to New Mexico. Various waitresses at roadside cafes and truck stops would give free food and sigh, longingly, at his flowing locks and bolo-ties and his sweet talk about 19.5 and torsion. I would love to take you to dinner my dear but it is "not in the model" at this time as I must out-race Sheriff Roscoe and save my dog!

Hahaha somebody hook you up as a scriptwriter!

[albrecht]

Hahaha somebody hook you up as a scriptwriter!

There could be also a subplot reason why the sheriffs are chasing him. He thinks it is due to "the model" and his paper-plate license plate or because his dog is not up to date on shots. But the real reason for the interstate chase is that in Alabama he recognized Sean David Morton working for cash "off the books" at some "Eat at Joe's" type of diner and offers him a ride. But SDM, conman that he is, didn't tell Hoagie of him dodging a Federal Bench Warrant for tax fraud convictions. As SDM likes robes he would be a comedic character ala Dom DeLuise in "Cannonball Run," who also had a sizeable girth.

[K_Dubb]

There could be also a subplot reason why the sheriffs are chasing him. He thinks it is due to "the model" and his paper-plate license plate or because his dog is not up to date on shots. But the real reason for the interstate chase is that in Alabama he recognized Sean David Morton working for cash "off the books" at some "Eat at Joe's" type of diner and offers him a ride. But SDM, conman that he is, didn't tell Hoagie of him dodging a Federal Bench Warrant for tax fraud convictions. As SDM likes robes he would be a comedic character ala Dom DeLuise in "Cannonball Run," who also had a sizeable girth.

Oh good lord that would be perfect!  Throw in a cameo by Dr Drunko, who may in fact be in Florida?  Come to think of it, maybe Dr Drunko did Hoagie a favor and that's why he got on the show to plug his book.