False flag commie plot?

[Quick Karl]

If Christianity, and Western Civilization, is so darn capitalist, economically exploitative, evil, racist, sexist, noninclusive, corrupt and so on...

Haven't you heard? The rest of the world is warm and fuzzy, all-inclusive, fair and just, and there is no corruption! Especially in those communist/liberal countries like Venezuela, if Sean Penn and Hanoi Jane are correct!

[onan]

It is interesting how all these people who think Christianity is the worst thing ever often attend facilities, such as schools or hospitals or the local Y, and often are the first inline to get help from the Red Cross after some disaster natural or terrorist attack. And those protestors and activists who often seem to think the USA, UK, European countries has so historically, and in our case, evil. And they often choose to live, or remain, in countries- some of which still have official State churches. If Christianity, and Western Civilization, is so darn capitalist, economically exploitative, evil, racist, sexist, noninclusive, corrupt and so on one would think they would move to the Middle East or some central African country since they are the paragon of civilization, human rights, peace, honesty, and non-violence.

I am pretty sure the Red Cross isn't a religious organization.

[albrecht]

I am pretty sure the Red Cross isn't a religious organization.

True but I wonder why they use a "red crescent" in other countries....hmmm.  Certainly a "cross" has no religious or cultural connotation and was chosen, at random, as the symbol of the organization (or as the symbol for the country of Switzerland also I imagine.)

[SciFiAuthor]

My challenge is -- why does it matter to you WHAT they believe? Except for the one-in-a-trillion rare exception in this country, no one is tarring and feathering homosexuals! They just don't want to be forced to bake cakes for them.

If the homosexual mafia in this country was so much more intellectually enlightened and morally superior, they would get their cake somewhere else and leave the people be.

It matters to me in the sense that they do social damage with their ideology. There are plenty of examples of the religious right going out to legislate morality, sometimes with great success such as with the temperance movement. In the same way that what a communist believes concerns me, the Christians concern me as well given their track record of restricting liberty with moral laws.

There's actually law on the books in my state prohibiting oral sex. Obviously, it's not enforced, but just how does a law prohibiting oral sex make it on the books in the first place? Some fundamentalist had it put there because Christianity considers it deviant or unnatural sex. Or, if you will, the tyranny of the majority asserted itself.

So yeah, so long as their religion remains a force in politics, I have to put them in the same basket with communists. Sure, they can believe what they want, it's a free country but that doesn't mean they should be in charge. 

As for the gays, I'm not sure how much of their cause is their own. From what I can see, the vast majority of the gay rights thing is driven by the actions and choices of the Democratic Party. That's who benefits most from it and that's who stuffs it in everyone's faces. I mean, sure, there are gay activists but from I can see there are far more straight people out there pushing that agenda for political reasons.

[onan]

True but I wonder why they use a "red crescent" in other countries....hmmm.  Certainly a "cross" has no religious or cultural connotation and was chosen, at random, as the symbol of the organization (or as the symbol for the country of Switzerland also I imagine.)

Because, there is a confusion with the emblem.

[SciFiAuthor]

It is interesting how all these people who think Christianity is the worst thing ever often attend facilities, such as schools or hospitals or the local Y, and often are the first inline to get help from the Red Cross after some disaster natural or terrorist attack. And those protestors and activists who often seem to think the USA, UK, European countries has so historically, and in our case, evil. And they often choose to live, or remain, in countries- some of which still have official State churches. If Christianity, and Western Civilization, is so darn capitalist, economically exploitative, evil, racist, sexist, noninclusive, corrupt and so on one would think they would move to the Middle East or some central African country since they are the paragon of civilization, human rights, peace, honesty, and non-violence.

I actually think the Western World made a massive mistake in giving up Greco-Roman paganism. If we hadn't, there wouldn't be an Islam.

[SciFiAuthor]

Haven't you heard? The rest of the world is warm and fuzzy, all-inclusive, fair and just, and there is no corruption! Especially in those communist/liberal countries like Venezuela, if Sean Penn and Hanoi Jane are correct!

Oh and by the way Karl, I am officially at war with Pope Francis. Every freaking time I turn around he's saying something flagrantly liberal. It's like the Catholic Church is run by Sean Penn at this point.

These religious folks are decoupling from conservatism as we know it.

[Quick Karl]

Oh and by the way Karl, I am officially at war with Pope Francis. Every freaking time I turn around he's saying something flagrantly liberal. It was like the Catholic Church is run by Sean Penn at this point.

These religious folks are decoupling from conservatism as we know it.

I agree with that completely - I think he is a buffoon that believes that by doing what he is doing he will re-energize the Catholic Church in terms of its political clout...

I am sure he genuinely cares about the plight of the poor but I also believe he is using them for political gain - like every dirt bag politician and leftist on this planet. In the end, the poor will still have nothing but a few crumbs...

[SciFiAuthor]

True but I wonder why they use a "red crescent" in other countries....hmmm.  Certainly a "cross" has no religious or cultural connotation and was chosen, at random, as the symbol of the organization (or as the symbol for the country of Switzerland also I imagine.)

Apparently it acquired a religious connotation later. It's originally just Switzerland's flag in reverse as designated by the first Geneva convention as a symbol of battlefield neutrality.

[Quick Karl]

It matters to me in the sense that they do social damage with their ideology. There are plenty of examples of the religious right going out to legislate morality, sometimes with great success such as with the temperance movement. In the same way that what a communist believes concerns me, the Christians concern me as well given their track record of restricting liberty with moral laws.

There's actually law on the books in my state prohibiting oral sex. Obviously, it's not enforced, but just how does a law prohibiting oral sex make it on the books in the first place? Some fundamentalist had it put there because Christianity considers it deviant or unnatural sex. Or, if you will, the tyranny of the majority asserted itself.

So yeah, so long as their religion remains a force in politics, I have to put them in the same basket with communists. Sure, they can believe what they want, it's a free country but that doesn't mean they should be in charge. 

As for the gays, I'm not sure how much of their cause is their own. From what I can see, the vast majority of the gay rights thing is driven by the actions and choices of the Democratic Party. That's who benefits most from it and that's who stuffs it in everyone's faces. I mean, sure, there are gay activists but from I can see there are far more straight people out there pushing that agenda for political reasons.

When they start advocating homoicide, or burning people at the stake, I'll be the first one putting them down like rabid dogs. Other than that, they really pose no threat to people's freedom of choice because if they did, this country would be a FAR different place.

They're just an easy target to demonize, like picking on a kid that can't, or wont, fight back, so that is why liberals, demoncrats, and homosexuals, attack them relentlessly.

The families of the murdered in S Carolina are real Christians.

[SciFiAuthor]

I agree with that completely - I think he is a buffoon that believes that by doing what he is doing he will re-energize the Catholic Church in terms of its political clout...

I am sure he genuinely cares about the plight of the poor but I also believe he is using them for political gain - like every dirt bag politician and leftist on this planet. In the end, the poor will still have nothing but a few crumbs...

Yeah, that's pretty much the size of it. Trouble is, for the faithful, his actions are guided by the Holy Spirit. Therefore add another commandment: thou shalt not deny climate change.

[Jackstar]

These cultists are indoctrinated to believe that if they do not bring themselves to forgive, they will be tortured for all Eternity. Spare me the heavy breathing over how noble the propaganda is.

[SciFiAuthor]

When they start advocating homoicide, or burning people at the stake, I'll be the first one putting them down like rabid dogs. Other than that, they really pose no threat to people's freedom of choice because if they did, this country would be a FAR different place.

They're just an easy target to demonize, like picking on a kid that can't, or wont, fight back, so that is why liberals, demoncrats, and homosexuals, attack them relentlessly.

The families of the murdered in S Carolina are real Christians.

Yeah, but there's a reason every politician in the US (almost) at least feigns deep religious beliefs and convictions. You do not get to be president in the US if you have no religious beliefs. And I think they do fight back, look at Huckabee, intelligent design etc.

That said, I feel for the families. I don't understand why the guy didn't choose a place like Ferguson for a rampage rather than a church.

[albrecht]

Apparently it acquired a religious connotation later. It's originally just Switzerland's flag in reverse as designated by the first Geneva convention as a symbol of battlefield neutrality.

And that type of battlefield neutrality, Pope's Peace, etc and symbol came from.....

ps: lots of people, including Hitler to some degree, but certainly many others agree with you about Christianity "doominig" Europeans as it were. If practiced, as more mainstream interpretations of it say, it is too pacific. There have been, and are, attempts by some to go back to more "pagan" religions or create new ones to get around this problem. (Simple self-interest or secularism might be worse when faced by an enemy as it leads to in-fighting as well.) Or replace religion with a belief in the State, Nation, Race, etc as primary motivation/belief. Obviously, when done in an extreme cases worst things than the worst of the Popes' or Christians' (or even Islams') occurred.

But the nature of current, mainstream political, and culturally thinking, is even more "destructive" than Christianity. That claims that all values, cultures, or ideas are fundamentally, somehow, equally valid or acceptable. (I take that back traditional Western culture, ideas, and values are actually WORSE than the others.)

[Quick Karl]

These cultists are indoctrinated to believe that if they do not bring themselves to forgive, they will be tortured for all Eternity. Spare me the heavy breathing over how noble the propaganda is.

Would you prefer they riot in the streets and burn the city down?

[Quick Karl]

I don't understand why the guy didn't choose a place like Ferguson for a rampage rather than a church.

Because he is a cunt.

[SciFiAuthor]

And that type of battlefield neutrality, Pope's Peace, etc and symbol came from.....

ps: lots of people, including Hitler to some degree, but certainly many others agree with you about Christianity "doominig" Europeans as it were. If practiced, as more mainstream interpretations of it say, it is too pacific. There have been, and are, attempts by some to go back to more "pagan" religions or create new ones to get around this problem. (Simple self-interest or secularism might be worse when faced by an enemy as it leads to in-fighting as well.) Or replace religion with a belief in the State, Nation, Race, etc as primary motivation/belief. Obviously, when done in an extreme cases worst things than the worst of the Popes' or Christians' (or even Islams') occurred.

But the nature of current, mainstream political, and culturally thinking, is even more "destructive" than Christianity. That claims that all values, cultures, or ideas are fundamentally, somehow, equally valid or acceptable. (I take that back traditional Western culture, ideas, and values are actually WORSE than the others.)

Yes, cultural relativism is criminally insane. Cultures are nothing more than collections of ideas. Ideas can be good or they can be bad. The Western World managed to come up with the best group of ideas that the planet had ever seen and that brought about the modern world. In other words, despite various incidences and problems, the Western World raised all boats globally (except maybe for some uncontacted tribes in Brazil).

By marginalizing western culture and elevating other cultures to the same status, the liberals basically throw away all of their social movements of the last 100 years and accept the backward aspects of other cultures. Arranged marriages, for example, become acceptable because it's their culture. No, to hell with that, wrong is wrong and the West is right. Heap shame and scorn on those cultures that practice it.

And yes, I tend to suspect that the rise of Christianity and ensuing upheaval and Dark Ages could have been avoided had the Romans not become fractured and the culture evolved to a Christian rather than pagan one. In fact, I think Christianity held us back through the loss of so much pagan philosophy. The argument could be made that had certain things happened, such as someone figuring out that Heron of Alexandria's steam engine could do work, we could have been on the moon centuries if not a thousand years earlier.

[Jackstar]

I don't understand why the guy didn't choose a place like Ferguson for a rampage rather than a church.

The guy walked in asking for the pastor by name.

You know, just like Sirhan Sirhan!

[Jackstar]

Would you prefer they riot in the streets and burn the city down?

Crusades II: This Time It's For Justice

[Quick Karl]

Crusades II: This Time It's For Justice

It all comes down to the brand of indoctrination one drinks!

[Quick Karl]

The guy walked in asking for the pastor by name.

You know, just like Sirhan Sirhan!

I do admit that when this story first came to light, that was my gut instinct. A Manchurian candidate, to advance an agenda. The victims just cogs in the wheel...

[albrecht]

Yes, cultural relativism is criminally insane. Cultures are nothing more than collections of ideas. Ideas can be good or they can be bad. The Western World managed to come up with the best group of ideas that the planet had ever seen and that brought about the modern world. In other words, despite various incidences and problems, the Western World raised all boats globally (except maybe for some uncontacted tribes in Brazil).

By marginalizing western culture and elevating other cultures to the same status, the liberals basically throw away all of their social movements of the last 100 years and accept the backward aspects of other cultures. Arranged marriages, for example, become acceptable because it's their culture. No, to hell with that, wrong is wrong and the West is right. Heap shame and scorn on those cultures that practice it.

And yes, I tend to suspect that the rise of Christianity and ensuing upheaval and Dark Ages could have been avoided had the Romans not become fractured and the culture evolved to a Christian rather than pagan one. In fact, I think Christianity held us back through the loss of so much pagan philosophy. The argument could be made that had certain things happened, such as someone figuring out that Heron of Alexandria's steam engine could do work, we could have been on the moon centuries if not a thousand years earlier.

Yes, but it also help preserve ancient ideas (even inadvertently) it times where even local warfare, or just normal human activity, would've destroyed them. The Middle-Ages is also being reconsidered by many historians.

Arranged marriages is an interesting topic. Certainly we, Europeans, have had them (and still do, in a way,) in the higher-strata of society (to merge/consolidate kingdoms, financial power, bring peace, etc.) But the concept seems an anathema to most of us. I know two couples who had marriages "arranged"- one couple are FIRST cousins even! The one I've known for decades also hate what has happened to Islam and to Pakistan. They, especially he, says it was much better when it was British and blames the Saudis, in particular, for spreading the bad form of Islam to Pakistan, and elsewhere. (He is in his early 90s now and is very secular.) His wife (and 1st cousin, but a decade or so younger) still holds Islamic customs but is very secular (drives, votes (big Obama sign in yard during elections,) worked, etc.) And they are still married. Very odd, in a way, because they almost live separate lives much of the time. George Norry has said his parents had an arranged marriage. Strange. Certainly the current Islamic practice of, basically, selling a young girl(s) for a "marriage" is a bad one that we shouldn't be allowing.

[WOTR]

I don't think so. Someone shoots your grandmother, you are not, no matter who you are, going to instantly be able to forgive. It's just not in human nature. You can say it, but it doesn't make it so. And to be honest, they shouldn't forgive. There's no point in it.

Actually, on this one, Onan is correct.  Being able to forgive is a huge positive for the person who is able to forgive.  I don't think that I could- I would be the guy with the sniper rifle- but that is not the "healthy" thing.


As to the relatives not really having been able to forgive yet- they are probably on their way.  The first step would be to mouth the words, keep mouthing them and try to make reality match what you say (no, I am not one of those feel-good people who believes in the power of positive thinking.)  But it is clear who would have the better life- the relatives who forgive or me waiting to kill him and stewing on it every day for 30 years until he gets released and I got my chance...

[Jackstar]

Being able to forgive is a huge positive for the person who is able to forgive.  I don't think that I could-

Are you implying that the threat of eternal condemnation and horrific consequences... is not compelling???

[WOTR]

Are you implying that the threat of eternal condemnation and horrific consequences... is not compelling???

I am saying that it does not matter if you believe that you SHOULD forgive, nor does religion play into it.  If you can forgive, you are more likely to have a better life here and now.  It does not matter if your ability to forgive gets you a gold star in heaven, 100 virgins direct from Allah, or moved up the evolutionary scale on your next visit to this little blue planet.  This life (the only one that you are guaranteed) is likely to be better...

[Jackstar]

It becomes impossible to debate with you when I completely agree with you.

Come--take my hand--together we will rule the galaxy as... well, whatever.

[WOTR]

It becomes impossible to debate with you when I completely agree with you.

Come--take my hand--together we will rule the galaxy as... well, whatever.

I just need to check here... You are a time traveler- correct?  If not, we are going to have a very difficult time ruling the galaxy...

[Jackstar]

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=fjv7k54YTa0

[SciFiAuthor]

Actually, on this one, Onan is correct.  Being able to forgive is a huge positive for the person who is able to forgive.  I don't think that I could- I would be the guy with the sniper rifle- but that is not the "healthy" thing.


As to the relatives not really having been able to forgive yet- they are probably on their way.  The first step would be to mouth the words, keep mouthing them and try to make reality match what you say (no, I am not one of those feel-good people who believes in the power of positive thinking.)  But it is clear who would have the better life- the relatives who forgive or me waiting to kill him and stewing on it every day for 30 years until he gets released and I got my chance...

I can't fathom this ability to forgive though. It just seems fake to me; one of those touchy feely cultural memes mistaken for reality. I certainly wouldn't dispute that time heals most wounds, but something this horrific is sufficiently scarring that true forgiveness seems like an impossibility. The pain of it would wear down over time, but there's always going to be feelings involved whether they are admitted or not. I remember reading once where when Spielberg was filming Schindler's list, the holocaust survivors who were advising the production would shake when they saw Ralph Feinnes in his SS garb because he looked so much like Amon Goethe. Even though over 50 years had passed, the basics of the psychology from the trauma were still in place.

In theory though, sure, if one could forgive then yeah it would lead to a better life. I just know that I couldn't do and I'm not sure I've ever known anyone that could. I'd be haunted by it, and proud of the fact that I never forgave the bastard. Perhaps there is a religious component, maybe there's something there for them (or just fear of Hell) but the problem there is that Jesus never said to forgive indiscriminately.

[SciFiAuthor]

Yes, but it also help preserve ancient ideas (even inadvertently) it times where even local warfare, or just normal human activity, would've destroyed them. The Middle-Ages is also being reconsidered by many historians.

Arranged marriages is an interesting topic. Certainly we, Europeans, have had them (and still do, in a way,) in the higher-strata of society (to merge/consolidate kingdoms, financial power, bring peace, etc.) But the concept seems an anathema to most of us. I know two couples who had marriages "arranged"- one couple are FIRST cousins even! The one I've known for decades also hate what has happened to Islam and to Pakistan. They, especially he, says it was much better when it was British and blames the Saudis, in particular, for spreading the bad form of Islam to Pakistan, and elsewhere. (He is in his early 90s now and is very secular.) His wife (and 1st cousin, but a decade or so younger) still holds Islamic customs but is very secular (drives, votes (big Obama sign in yard during elections,) worked, etc.) And they are still married. Very odd, in a way, because they almost live separate lives much of the time. George Norry has said his parents had an arranged marriage. Strange. Certainly the current Islamic practice of, basically, selling a young girl(s) for a "marriage" is a bad one that we shouldn't be allowing.

It was a double edged sword. Yeah, they preserved a few temples and writings, but they also went out of their way to stamp out any vestiges of Paganism that they could. Under Theodosius I the Christians perpetuated a veritable orgy of murder and destruction against anything that wasn't Christian in the Roman Empire which irreparably damaged Roman society and turned it into something completely new, basically killing off the last of the classical world and replacing it with a pale Byzantine shadow of its former self for no discernible reason other than an us vs. them religious mentality which persists in some ways today. It was basically the liberals of Roman society with their weird middle eastern religion killing off the Roman conservatives with their home-grown European classicism.

Well, I think all marriages used to last longer, arranged or not. As I recall, George said his parents were still together, so I presume an arranged marriage can work fine if the two people are compatible or at least willing to compromise. Personally I think the concept of marriage itself is a silly religious relic (one that cost me a TON in a settlement) that we should just stop engaging in arranged or not.