Yet Another Conservative Darling Bites the Dust

[NowhereInTime]

Former Virginia Governor Bob McDonnell, he of the 2010 State of the Union response from the Statehouse in Richmond, has been convicted on 11 of 13 counts of public corruption:

http://www.aol.com/article/2014/09/04/ex-virginia-gov-wife-guilty-of-public-corruption/20957428/?icid=maing-grid7%7Cmain5%7Cdl2%7Csec1_lnk3%26pLid%3D524925

Conservatives think they are smarter than everyone around, which is why they get caught like John Rowland and Bob McDonnell.

[FightTheFuture]

Former Virginia Governor Bob McDonnell, he of the 2010 State of the Union response from the Statehouse in Richmond, has been convicted on 11 of 13 counts of public corruption:

http://www.aol.com/article/2014/09/04/ex-virginia-gov-wife-guilty-of-public-corruption/20957428/?icid=maing-grid7%7Cmain5%7Cdl2%7Csec1_lnk3%26pLid%3D524925

Conservatives think they are smarter than everyone around, which is why they get caught like John Rowland and Bob McDonnell.

McDonnell was dirty and deserves MANY years in prison. I have no tolerance whatsoever of dirty politicians, regardless of their political convictions. Good riddance, Bob.

[West of the Rockies]

Yes, good riddance to bad rubbish... Don't tap dance with too much glee though, my fellow libs.  I am sure "one of our own" will perp walk soon enough.  Tis the way.

[Quick Karl]

Yes, good riddance to bad rubbish... Don't tap dance with too much glee though, my fellow libs.  I am sure "one of our own" will perp walk soon enough.  Tis the way.

They are all dirt - every stinking one of them.

[NowhereInTime]

This conservative biting the dust is the myth of the Invisible hand of the "Free" Market.  For years I've been saying the real evil perpetrated upon the American citizen is the manipulation of commodity prices by conservative elite.  This has amounted to a greater taxation of average citizens' resources than any government boondoggle. 


Chicken littles on this very site have stamped their feet in fits of pique insisting that 1) speculation had no real bearing on price, the demand from the BRIC countries did and 2) interest rates would HAVE TO rise and thereby drown this country in a cesspool of debt.


Funny, isn't it,when a sudden surge of availability of commodity sees the speculative money flee, correcting prices to real demand instead of bid-inflated demand?


http://www.cnbc.com/id/102253127


Being a CNBC article, it excuses the commodity plunge by pitching woe regarding the world economy. It virtually ignores China's horrific real estate and credit bubbles and ignores how this economy has been retooling (and growing).  Read between the lines; the rich got too greedy an collapsed their commodity people taxing machine. Dickheads.


I went to a club once where, for $20, you could get a reach-around.  It was called the Invisible Handy. 'Bout right.

[albrecht]

This conservative biting the dust is the myth of the Invisible hand of the "Free" Market.  For years I've been saying the real evil perpetrated upon the American citizen is the manipulation of commodity prices by conservative elite.  This has amounted to a greater taxation of average citizens' resources than any government boondoggle. 


Chicken littles on this very site have stamped their feet in fits of pique insisting that 1) speculation had no real bearing on price, the demand from the BRIC countries did and 2) interest rates would HAVE TO rise and thereby drown this country in a cesspool of debt.


Funny, isn't it,when a sudden surge of availability of commodity sees the speculative money flee, correcting prices to real demand instead of bid-inflated demand?


http://www.cnbc.com/id/102253127


Being a CNBC article, it excuses the commodity plunge by pitching woe regarding the world economy. It virtually ignores China's horrific real estate and credit bubbles and ignores how this economy has been retooling (and growing).  Read between the lines; the rich got too greedy an collapsed their commodity people taxing machine. Dickheads.


I went to a club once where, for $20, you could get a reach-around.  It was called the Invisible Handy. 'Bout right.

Except for our open-border policy and that now other countries have technological means to hurt us (or destroy the whole world) with nuclear, biological, and hacking weapons they would be tempted to use once things go really south, I don't mind a "fortress America" scenario. Our country was at our best when we had no personal income tax, tariffs against cheap foreign goods, good employment numbers, domestic production of agriculture, fuel, and goods and services and a limited Federal government that was mainly concerned with our national defense- and not on foreign wars or spending for funding social experimentation and Congressional-Corporate pay-back/kick-back schemes.

[PB the Deplorable]

This conservative biting the dust is the myth of the Invisible hand of the "Free" Market.  For years I've been saying the real evil perpetrated upon the American citizen is the manipulation of commodity prices by conservative elite.  This has amounted to a greater taxation of average citizens' resources than any government boondoggle. 


Chicken littles on this very site have stamped their feet in fits of pique insisting that 1) speculation had no real bearing on price, the demand from the BRIC countries did and 2) interest rates would HAVE TO rise and thereby drown this country in a cesspool of debt.


Funny, isn't it,when a sudden surge of availability of commodity sees the speculative money flee, correcting prices to real demand instead of bid-inflated demand?


http://www.cnbc.com/id/102253127


Being a CNBC article, it excuses the commodity plunge by pitching woe regarding the world economy. It virtually ignores China's horrific real estate and credit bubbles and ignores how this economy has been retooling (and growing).  Read between the lines; the rich got too greedy an collapsed their commodity people taxing machine. Dickheads.


I went to a club once where, for $20, you could get a reach-around.  It was called the Invisible Handy. 'Bout right.

Oh yes, a centrally planned economy is so much better than Capitalism.  Never mind what reality has shown, over and over, in these centrally planned utopias.

You say the falling prices caused by greater supply prove capitalism doesn't work.  Actually, that is one of the tenets of capitalism. 

You say the increase in the price of oil wasn't caused by greater demand from the BRICs.  Absurd.

And those were the most coherent parts of your post

[Quick Karl]

You say the falling prices caused by greater supply prove capitalism doesn't work.  Actually, that is one of the tenets of capitalism.

That is precisely how Capitalism was intended to work, but one would have to know what Capitalism really is -- it is spelled out very clearly in The Creation of the American Republic, 1776-1787 by Gordon S. Wood

http://www.amazon.com/Creation-American-Republic-1776-1787/dp/0807847232/ref=sr_1_1?s=books&ie=UTF8&qid=1418267379&sr=1-1&keywords=the+creation+of+the+american+republic

Just sayin... 

[coaster]

quick karl has his head on backwards. why do you rant on an art bell/coast to coast website just to bitch about politics. just to argue. whats the point? you obviously know alex jones. infowars would give you a boner. i just dont know why youd argue to a point that has no agreement. stupid troll perhaps.

[PB the Deplorable]

...  For years I've been saying the real evil perpetrated upon the American citizen is the manipulation of commodity prices by conservative elite...

And you've been wrong every time.  Not only about how the commodities markets work, but that they are controlled by 'Conservatives'.  I really wish Conservatives had the power and influence you guys seem to think they have - the world would be a much better saner place

You really don't seem to understand much about the way business works.  Why you don't, having been a store manager all these years, is beyond me.  Take oil for example - most oil (and other commodities for that mater) is sold in advance between the producers and their customers - the refineries.  The producers lock in their future sales prices and the customers lock in their future costs.  That benefits both by providing future revenue information to one and future costs to the other.  They are then able to better manage their companies in industries that deal with goods having volatile prices.  (It works the same way between farmers and, say, Kellogg's, when it comes to the price of corn)

The 'price of oil' reported in the media is not the value of the various oil futures contracts, it's the current price of Spot Oil - oil sold today at todays rate.  Those deals are often sales of excess oil in inventories, sales of oil by OPEC nations cheating on their quotas, sales of stolen oil, and so on. 

Sometimes producers or customers buy or sell their futures contracts on the open market instead of lining up a trading partner themselves.  This is where speculators enter.  If there is an excess of sale contracts, the price of oil dips and a speculator will step in and buy excess sale contracts before the price of oil drops below what the speculator thinks is 'too low'.  If there is an excess of purchase contracts, the price goes up and a speculator will step in and buy excess purchase contracts before the price of oil goes 'too high'.  There are various other types of contracts and strategies, but they are similar to the above.  The speculator neither produces oil nor takes delivery to consume it, they ultimately close out their contracts, and their actions stabilize the price. 

So there is a difference between the price of spot oil and the price of oil sold through futures.  Spot oil (sold at 'current rates' is a tiny percentage of oil sold. 

[b_dubb]

I really wish Conservatives had the power and influence you guys seem to think they have - the world would be a much better saner place

If Conservatives don't have power why are we in Iraq?

[WhiteCrow]

Except for our open-border policy and that now other countries have technological means to hurt us (or destroy the whole world) with nuclear, biological, and hacking weapons they would be tempted to use once things go really south, I don't mind a "fortress America" scenario. Our country was at our best when we had no personal income tax, tariffs against cheap foreign goods, good employment numbers, domestic production of agriculture, fuel, and goods and services and a limited Federal government that was mainly concerned with our national defense- and not on foreign wars or spending for funding social experimentation and Congressional-Corporate pay-back/kick-back schemes.

Oh yes the good'ol days.... Not.... while I can find plenty of fault with both the good'ol days and today's America, I'd rather be living now. We shoulder the burden of keeping western civilization safe and pay a hell of cost both fiscal and to reputation, but there is no real alternative. If America world's leadership is gone, China's evil will rule the roost.

[WhiteCrow]

If Conservatives don't have power why are we in Iraq?

The war in the Middle East mostly transcends party politics, it's fought for the benefits of western civilization.
Party politics (conservatives vs liberals) statements are used to score points against the other party to gain votes. Both sides irregardless of their public statements support the ongoing struggle.

[albrecht]

Oh yes the good'ol days.... Not.... while I can find plenty of fault with both the good'ol days and today's America, I'd rather be living now. We shoulder the burden of keeping western civilization safe and pay a hell of cost both fiscal and to reputation, but there is no real alternative. If America world's leadership is gone, China's evil will rule the roost.

We aren't defending Western Civilization for sure. Look at this guy who is in the highest office and his odd-ball priorities and animosity towards our history and culture. All we are defending, maybe, are some increasingly international conglomerates, cartels, and corporations. And you claim we worry about China? We love them. Way too much with the amount of technology, kowtowing, and trade we are giving them with Obama leading the way with his bows. Now it could be claimed that TPP etc is some way to hedge against the yellow-peril. But I don't buy it. If anything the TPP will just grow like other agreements to later include China- at the expense of national sovereignty and law to all involved. We can have real free trade without "free trade" deals.

[Quick Karl]

quick karl has his head on backwards. why do you rant on an art bell/coast to coast website just to bitch about politics. just to argue. whats the point? you obviously know alex jones. infowars would give you a boner. i just dont know why youd argue to a point that has no agreement. stupid troll perhaps.

You write like a moron.

[NowhereInTime]

Oh yes, a centrally planned economy is so much better than Capitalism.  Never mind what reality has shown, over and over, in these centrally planned utopias.

Never called for or advocated central planned economies. So, red herring.  Typical conservative dodge.

You say the falling prices caused by greater supply prove capitalism doesn't work.  Actually, that is one of the tenets of capitalism.

Never said capitalism doesn't work.  I said speculation was unrepresented taxation by the rich on the middle/working class.  Red Herring #2.

You say the increase in the price of oil wasn't caused by greater demand from the BRICs.  Absurd.

You mean the Brazil that's been in recession for over a year yet oil prices have just fallen? 


http://www.washingtonpost.com/world/the_americas/brazils-economy-in-a-funk-marked-by-low-productivity-and-creative-accounting/2014/12/08/08c55534-796c-11e4-9721-80b3d95a28a9_story.html


You mean the same India now looking for 5% growth as oil falls?  Gee, wouldn't a growing India by virtue of it's size and standing preserve higher prices?


http://www.bloomberg.com/news/2014-12-10/modi-s-window-to-overhaul-india-economy-never-wider-as-oil-falls.html


You mean the same Russia that's trying to pump it's way of economic devastation because of ongoing sanctions for it's aberrant behavior?


http://www.forbes.com/sites/kenrapoza/2014/11/30/despite-falling-oil-prices-russia-not-cutting-production/


There's no indication of reduction of demand in this country, neck and neck with China as the world's largest economies:


https://www.yahoo.com/travel/more-people-traveling-for-thanksgiving-tripadvisor-102556990022.html

And those were the most coherent parts of your post.

And this was the entirety of your rebuttal.


Absurd.

[NowhereInTime]

And you've been wrong every time.

Ok, leaving aside the fact that this is an outright lie, you fail to substantiate this point. At all. 

Not only about how the commodities markets work, but that they are controlled by 'Conservatives'.

Really?  Because I think the reality of the oil markets lately (by the way, as have the suddenly affordable food prices: http://www.ft.com/cms/s/0/48f36452-7ec6-11e4-b83e-00144feabdc0.html#axzz3LbYY4dro )  have bolstered my arguments.
Speculation dollars have fled as Russia, OPEC, and, oh by the way, we, overpump.  Too many smart consumers are walking back from oil dependency while you guys shrill "Drill, Baby, Drill!"  'Tis the Age of Tesla and smarter, cleaner energy consumption.

I really wish Conservatives had the power and influence you guys seem to think they have - the world would be a much better saner place

This dystopia of economic strife, inequality, and war is straight due to the primacy of property that is the bulwark of conservatism.

You really don't seem to understand much about the way business works.

Oh, this is my favorite!  More of professor Papes and his academic/philosophic wank of the Way Things Oughta Be! 

Why you don't, having been a store manager all these years, is beyond me.

No, real world experience is apparently beyond you.  Mine has lead me to my conclusions and philosophy.

Take oil for example - most oil (and other commodities for that mater) is sold in advance between the producers and their customers - the refineries.  The producers lock in their future sales prices and the customers lock in their future costs.  That benefits both by providing future revenue information to one and future costs to the other.  They are then able to better manage their companies in industries that deal with goods having volatile prices.  (It works the same way between farmers and, say, Kellogg's, when it comes to the price of corn)

Right, except that most of these are 30 day contracts, so, "sold in advance" makes it seem like all contracts are 90 day, when they're not.  Plus, so what?  Speculation has skewed these numbers since Reagan but especially since the Bush tax cuts, when the rich took their revenge for the "welfare state" by running up prices on average consumers.

The 'price of oil' reported in the media is not the value of the various oil futures contracts, it's the current price of Spot Oil - oil sold today at todays rate.  Those deals are often sales of excess oil in inventories, sales of oil by OPEC nations cheating on their quotas, sales of stolen oil, and so on.

words... words... words...

Sometimes producers or customers buy or sell their futures contracts on the open market instead of lining up a trading partner themselves.  This is where speculators enter.

So naive.  Really?  This is when Goldman Sachs shows up? This is when T. Boone Pickens decides to act?  Come the fuck on.  Even an apologist for the wealthy like you can't believe anyone's swallowing that Castor Oil.

[size=78%]If there is an excess of sale contracts, the price of oil dips and a speculator will step in and buy excess sale contracts before the price of oil drops below what the speculator thinks is 'too low'.  If there is an excess of purchase contracts, the price goes up and a speculator will step in and buy excess purchase contracts before the price of oil goes 'too high'.  There are various other types of contracts and strategies, but they are similar to the above.  The speculator neither produces oil nor takes delivery to consume it, they ultimately close out their contracts, and their actions stabilize the price. [/size]

Minimized to limit bullshit factor.  Seriously, this is another B School wank that doesn't factor in things like, you know, insider trading, aggressive position taking, market cornering, reality, etc., etc.

So there is a difference between the price of spot oil and the price of oil sold through futures.  Spot oil (sold at 'current rates' is a tiny percentage of oil sold.

And there's a real difference between academic exercise and the reality of these markets.  Demand is consistent from most of the world's economies, except Brazil which was energy self-reliant before.  This was triggered by your heroes:


1) Putin and his miscreant deeds have forced him to try and pump his way out of sanctions;


2) OPEC - let's face it -  these are the true example of unchecked capitalism; a cartel without consequence and;


3) Sarah ("drill baby, drill") Palin and the oil-inistas who insisted we have to frack our way to freedom.


Some overcapacity would depress prices; what we are witnessing is the flight of fear of the rich; sensing any possible loss of capital, they flee like hyenas.


That's the real world, Papes.

[NowhereInTime]

We aren't defending Western Civilization for sure. Look at this guy who is in the highest office and his odd-ball priorities and animosity towards our history and culture.

As usual, perception, not reality.  Animosity towards "our culture"?  Is he speaking Esperanto?  Wearing Dashikis to international summits?  Or is this about owning up to torture?

All we are defending, maybe, are some increasingly international conglomerates, cartels, and corporations.

Well, no, you are defending white male Christian property owners who see threats in every shadow.

And you claim we worry about China? We love them. Way too much with the amount of technology, kowtowing, and trade we are giving them with Obama leading the way with his bows.

No, By God you're right! Bomb Manchuria!

Now it could be claimed that TPP etc is some way to hedge against the yellow-peril. But I don't buy it.

But don't dare call you racist or anything.

If anything the TPP will just grow like other agreements to later include China- at the expense of national sovereignty and law to all involved. We can have real free trade without "free trade" deals.

The one thing Reagan got right was "Trust but Verify."  That's the crux of these deals.

[NowhereInTime]

And to continue; this happens...


http://www.nytimes.com/2014/12/12/upshot/signs-that-the-economy-is-starting-to-rev-up.html?hp&action=click&pgtype=Homepage&module=second-column-region&region=top-news&WT.nav=top-news&_r=0&abt=0002&abg=0


...while this is happening:


http://www.cnbc.com/id/102258403  (oil below $60 a barrel)


Proving you don't need a recession to correct oil prices, you just need to scare the speculators out. Pigfuckers. (the speculators, not you guys)

[PB the Deplorable]

... words... words... words...

... Goldman Sachs...

Yes, words you don't understand.  If you did you'd know your Left-wing sources are relying on your ignorance of economics in order to fill you with nonsense.

Of course Goldman Sachs buys and sells oil contracts.  They are a 'middle man'.  Producers that don't have a direct customer lined up for a certain amount of oil (or whichever commodity) turn to the market buy their future production contracts.  GS is large enough to buy a lot of them.  Customers who don't, or don't always deal with producers turn to the market for their future oil supply contracts.

You know what a middle man is in the chain of production and distribution is, don't you?  Like a Macy's dept store that doesn't manufacture a single thing, but buys goods they think they can sell to their customers at a higher price.  Sinister, I know.

Take a look at the price of a gallon of gas.  Someone has to explore for oil, develop the oil field, drill it, pump it, ship it, refine it into gasoline, transport it to the gas station, and sell it.  It's expensive, capital intensive, and there are mounds of regs and environmental and employee safety precautions to take.  For all that, it costs what, $3 - $4 - sometimes $5, per gallon at the pump.  And a pretty good chunk of that is excise and sales taxes.  Not to mention other corporate taxes built into the cost and passed along to the end user customer.

That's less that a gallon of beer, a gallon of juice, a gallon of decent milk, even a gallon of bottled water.  And even less than a package of a couple pairs of sox.  Yeah, a real rip off.

On each gallon of gas, the federal and state governments make more in taxes than the profit everyone along the production and delivery chain make on that same gallon combined. 


A few years back the fees Visa and MasterCard were charging the gas stations were eliminating all their profit on the sales to their charge customers (many try to at least break even on gasoline sales, and make their money on snack sales), so they finally reached an agreement where Visa and MC would lower their fees on gas sales.  That's how thin the margins are.

There are plenty of good reason to hate on Goldman Sachs and Wall St, but this isn't one of them.  I'm sure they use their power to rip us off here and their even in oil, but it's a, um, drop in the bucket in the overall cost of gas.  And yeah, the reason prices are dropping is due to inreasing production in a world economy that's still floundering


I know - words, words, words.

[Robert Ghostwolf's Ghost]

Yes, words you don't understand.  If you did you'd know your Left-wing sources are relying on your ignorance of economics in order to fill you with nonsense.

Of course Goldman Sachs buys and sells oil contracts.  They are a 'middle man'.  Producers that don't have a direct customer lined up for a certain amount of oil (or whichever commodity) turn to the market buy their future production contracts.  GS is large enough to buy a lot of them.  Customers who don't, or don't always, deal with producers turn to the market for their future oil supply contracts.

You know what a middle man is in the chain of production and distribution is, don't you?  Like a Macy's dept store that doesn't manufacture a single thing, but buys goods they think they can sell to their customers at a higher price.  Sinister, I know.

Take a look at the price of a gallon of gas.  Someone has to explore for oil, develop the oil field, drill it, pump it, ship it, refine it into gasoline, transport it to the gas station, and sell it.  It's expensive, capital intensive, and their are mounds of regs and environmental and employee safety precautions to take.  For all that, it costs what, $3 - $4 - sometimes $5, per gallon at the pump.  And a pretty good chunk of that is excise and sales taxes .  Not to mention other corporate taxes built into the cost and passed along to the end user customer.

That's less that a gallon of beer, a gallon of juice, a gallon of decent milk, even a gallon of bottled water.  And a package of a couple pairs of sox.  Yeah, a real rip off.

On each gallon of gas, the federal and state governments make more in taxes than everyone along the production and delivery chain combined. 


A few years back the fees Visa and MasterCard were charging the gas stations were eliminating all their profit on the sales to their charge customers (many try to at least break even on gasoline sales, and make their money on snack sales), so they finally reached an agreement where Visa and MC would lower their fees on gas sales.  That's how thin the margins are.

There are plenty of good reason to hate on Goldman Sachs and Wall St, but this isn't one of them.  I'm sure they use their power to rip us off here and their even in oil, but it's a, um, drop in the bucket in the overall cost of gas.  And yeah, the reason prices are dropping is due to inreasing production in a world economy that's still floundering


I know - words, words, words.

Tell us again how it was all the fault of the radical Left when oil cost over $100 a barrel.

[PB the Deplorable]

Tell us again how it was all the fault of the radical Left when oil cost over $100 a barrel.

That was Reagan's fault, don't you read these boards?

[pate]

This conservative biting the dust is the myth of the Invisible hand of the "Free" Market.  For years I've been saying the real evil perpetrated upon the American citizen is the manipulation of commodity prices by conservative elite. ....

Yeah, yeah, yeah, like how Bush (2) through his awful power of presidency an' such controlled oil prices so much that he drove them (them=oil prices) down so much to influence an election...

... and yadda, yadda, yadda, Bush (1 & 2 evul) &bqwatevuh...


yOUR ARGUMENTS ARE SOUND!!1

No really, the Presidency/and/or/fambly has such signifigance to influence anything at all?  I agree not your argument, but many of your ilk argue that the Presidency has some sort of influence on the cost of oil and therefore gasoline...  why is it so low right now?  Lower than I recall it under Bush (2)??

Obviously a Presidential manipulation; or FALSE becuz not MY PRESIDENT?

[pate]

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=vlxkcewBEe0

[pate]

Something urgent has come up...


"You'll have to answer to the Coca-Cola company"

edit:  Dr. Strangelove and the Bomb

[NowhereInTime]

Yeah, yeah, yeah, like how Bush (2) through his awful power of presidency an' such controlled oil prices so much that he drove them (them=oil prices) down so much to influence an election...

... and yadda, yadda, yadda, Bush (1 & 2 evul) &bqwatevuh...

Well, no, not laying this all on Bush. In fact, I neither a) named Bush as the sole cause or b) implied Bush was the sole manipulator.  His irresponsible tax cut agenda (from a cabal of conservatives including Don Regan, Karl Rove, Jack Kemp, Phil Gramm, Dick Cheney, Grover Norquist, et al) coming off the dot.com bubble burst was the catalyst that exploded the deficit. That and borrowing money from China to fight Saddam and the Mujahedeen his father once aided.

yOUR ARGUMENTS ARE SOUND!!

Thank you.  An understanding of how the world really works gives you insight to pierce the pablum of philosophy and big media spin.

No really, the Presidency/and/or/fambly has such signifigance to influence anything at all?  I agree not your argument, but many of your ilk argue that the Presidency has some sort of influence on the cost of oil and therefore gasoline...  why is it so low right now?  Lower than I recall it under Bush (2) ??

Three things:
1) I'm going to assume you're typing on a smartphone, so, forgiven.


2) Do some research; oil closed at the lowest price Friday since 2009; after the Bush team left the White House.  If you'll recall, oil miraculously dropped in price in October 2008 as John McCain's campaign stumbled on a Palin.  It was a lame attempt at a save and failed.  Oil promptly began to ramp up through 2009 into 2010, even though our economy was stagnant.


3) Oil is low right now because Russia is trying to pump it's way out of sanctions, OPEC is pumping to prevent Russia from dominating market share; we are fracking our landscape to pieces for shale. No, really, it's because the rich, after years of taxing the working class via price manipulation, fled the market in fearful advance of lowering prices.  Craven curs. 
Reminds me of when those great patriots plunged the stock market when it first reopened after 9/11. Selfish cowards.

Obviously a Presidential manipulation; or FALSE becuz not MY PRESIDENT?

I don't even know what this is supposed to mean, except to say you are hung up on a false premise about presidential power which wasn't part of my argument.

[NowhereInTime]

That was Reagan's fault, don't you read these boards?

He was the wink and a nod figurehead who's grandfatherly folksomeness Pied Piper'd us into this current state of affairs.  Good call on your part, Papes.

[NowhereInTime]

Yes, words you don't understand.

Oh, I understand them just fine.  They were just wholly irrelevant to the real world scenario. It's typical Cato Institute/Austrian school wank to obfuscate reality.  Plus you feel smart typing it.

If you did you'd know your Left-wing sources are relying on your ignorance of economics in order to fill you with nonsense.

Well, among my "left-wing sources" are Nobel prize winning economists like Joseph Stiglitz and Paul Krugman.  I'm sorry if sober, educated men of achievement contradict what Judge Napolitano is telling you, but too bad.

Of course Goldman Sachs buys and sells oil contracts.  They are a 'middle man

Yes, like Mao was a "reformer" and Hitler was a "statesman".  They, amongst many others, arrange positions and trades, flood the media with directed spin, and create counterparty deals that benefit the wealthiest of their clients.
You have no moral compass.

Producers that don't have a direct customer lined up for a certain amount of oil (or whichever commodity) turn to the market buy their future production contracts.  GS is large enough to buy a lot of them.  Customers who don't, or don't always deal with producers turn to the market for their future oil supply contracts.

True, but again not even close to the whole story, and you know it.  You forgot to mention how third parties can bid in on barrels with no more than 7% down and never have to take delivery.  It's like the grocery store letting another customer cut in line in front of you, buy up all the tomatoes (on store credit, no less), then, outside the store, he sell the tomatoes at an arbitrary mark up back to you.  You need the tomatoes for your fine pasta sauce, but he's charging you way more than the store did.
That's an oversimplified way of explaining it, but you did leave it out.

You know what a middle man is in the chain of production and distribution is, don't you?  Like a Macy's dept store that doesn't manufacture a single thing, but buys goods they think they can sell to their customers at a higher price.  Sinister, I know.

Here's the big difference; unlike the CBOT or the NYMEX, the entire public is welcome to shop at Macy's.  You can use a personal shopper (ie: a broker or investment bank, though the personal shopper service is free...) , but you don't have to ; you are more than welcome to shop the entire store yourself.  Plus there are no "insider" discounts or special sales.  Oh, sure, we would tell Macy's card holders about "special sales", but they'd be in the paper same day.  As were the coupons.
There is no one coming in to buy all the George Foreman grills, only putting 7% down on them, leaving them in the store, then selling them at a 30% mark up to Macy's prices.


So, your analogy sucks.  Sinister, I know.

Take a look at the price of a gallon of gas.  Someone has to explore for oil, develop the oil field, drill it, pump it, ship it, refine it into gasoline, transport it to the gas station, and sell it.  It's expensive, capital intensive, and there are mounds of regs and environmental and employee safety precautions to take.  For all that, it costs what, $3 - $4 - sometimes $5, per gallon at the pump.  And a pretty good chunk of that is excise and sales taxes.  Not to mention other corporate taxes built into the cost and passed along to the end user customer.

Wow!  So, what's the point?

That's less that a gallon of beer, a gallon of juice, a gallon of decent milk, even a gallon of bottled water.  And even less than a package of a couple pairs of sox.  Yeah, a real rip off.

Sure is!  Orange price manipulation never happens.  I mean, it's not like they made a (funny) movie about people trying to corner the orange market. (You wouldn't like it; Al Franken appears in it.)
Point its, we are arguing oil, but it is commodities as a whole that are manipulated. 

On each gallon of gas, the federal and state governments make more in taxes than the profit everyone along the production and delivery chain make on that same gallon combined.

I feel bad; Exxon had to have a yard sale (brokered by Goldman Sachs) just to make payroll.
So fucking what?  I appreciate the incentives to push us toward non-fossil fuel burning vehicles.

A few years back the fees Visa and MasterCard were charging the gas stations were eliminating all their profit on the sales to their charge customers (many try to at least break even on gasoline sales, and make their money on snack sales), so they finally reached an agreement where Visa and MC would lower their fees on gas sales.  That's how thin the margins are.

RED HERRING!  Now you are talking gas retailers; they are screwed like consumers.  By the time the gas is allocated to the retailer level, wealthy speculators have already driven up the price by reserving (limiting) supply.  Plus, I am aware of how credit card companies (especially the pricks at American Express) rip back from retailers.

There are plenty of good reason to hate on Goldman Sachs and Wall St, but this isn't one of them.  I'm sure they use their power to rip us off here and their even in oil, but it's a, um, drop in the bucket in the overall cost of gas.  And yeah, the reason prices are dropping is due to increasing production in a world economy that's still floundering.

Paper*Boy's Misdirection sponsored by: Goldman Sachs!  Your friend on Wall Street! Visit us on www.goldmansachs.com for straightforward, honest brokering!

I know - words, words, words.

A lot of incongruities and obfuscation strung together to defend the wealthy.  The Koch Brothers would be proud.  Really wish I knew why rich people getting richer was such a core value to you.

[Gd5150]

He [Reagan] was the wink and a nod figurehead who's grandfatherly folksomeness Pied Piper'd us into this current state of affairs.  Good call on your part, Papes.

If only Carter had been elected to a 2nd term none of this would have happened. Such a shame as he  had the country on such a great track.

[PB the Deplorable]

... Well, among my "left-wing sources" are Nobel prize winning economists like Joseph Stiglitz and Paul Krugman.  I'm sorry if sober, educated men of achievement contradict what Judge Napolitano is telling you, but too bad...

Yes Krugman won a Nobel Prize in Econ.  Do you know what specifically it was for?  Hint, it wasn't anything he writes about now. 

Yes, even Libs win awards.  And even go on to become political shills.


Heck, Barack Obama won a Nobel Peace Prize.  Would you want him running our foreign policy?

... You forgot to mention how third parties can bid in on barrels with no more than 7% down...

Did you buy your house with cash?  Your car?  If not, you're helping to keep housing and transportation prices artificially high by borrowing.  According to your logic

... Wow!  So, what's the point?...

The point is:  gas is pretty cheap.  There is little profit in each gallon (they make it on volume).  I.e., there isn't the manipulation you think there is or it would be a lot more expensive

... RED HERRING!  Now you are talking gas retailers; they are screwed like consumers...

I'm just pointing out there isn't a huge amount of profit on a single gallon of gas anywhere along the production/delivery chain.  Visa and MC were making more per gallon (on the fees they charge retailers when people use credit cards to buy gas) than anyone but the Federal and state governments

... A lot of incongruities and obfuscation strung together to defend the wealthy.  The Koch Brothers would be proud.  Really wish I knew why rich people getting richer was such a core value to you...

It's not.  Correcting misinformation about politics and economics is.

When people don't really understand them (especially when they are sure they do) they are more susceptible to demagogues and end up helping to elect people like Barack Obama