F*#*@!#~! Religion

[FightTheFuture]

http://religion.blogs.cnn.com/2014/04/10/study-jesus-wife-fragment-not-a-fake/?hpt=hp_t2

Oh, so it turns out Jesus was just a regular guy after all.   Wow, I'm shocked.

I have a bridge for sale. Interested?

[b_dubb]

Here's the weird thing about Catholicism: you can't be gay unless you're a Vatican priest. What a load of bs. 

I like Pope Francis though.

[FightTheFuture]

Here's the weird thing about Catholicism: you can't be gay unless you're a Vatican priest. What a load of bs. 

I like Pope Francis though.

Pope Francis is da man.

[FightTheFuture]

And my man, da Pope, is tellin` it like it is:

http://www.lifesitenews.com/pope-francis-calls-abortion-an-abominable-crime-in-strongest-remarks-to-dat2.html

[Catsmile]

And my man, da Pope, is tellin` it like it is:

http://www.lifesitenews.com/pope-francis-calls-abortion-an-abominable-crime-in-strongest-remarks-to-dat2.html

WWJD: What Would Jesus Do?
From John 8, King James version of the bible. Because as some would tell you it's the only true real bible. All the other bibles are the devils works.  :

4. They say unto him, Master, this woman was taken in adultery, in the very act.
5. Now Moses in the law commanded us, that such should be stoned: but what sayest thou?
6. This they said, tempting him, that they might have to accuse him. But Jesus stooped down, and with his finger wrote on the ground, as though he heard them not.
7. So when they continued asking him, he lifted up himself, and said unto them,  He that is without sin among you, let him first cast a stone at her.

Seems the Pope fancies himself as an old testament Jew. Placing Moses laws above the words of his chosen Messiah.
Maybe the Pope should spend more time reading the Lords words, and less time decreeing what the Lord wants of his people. How can a sinner decree, and judge what is to be punished in Gods realm? The gall to sit in judgment, and decree sin like he were God.

Those good Christians, so busy judging others. They don't have time to read the words of there Lord, and understand them. To them the new testament has turned into a weapon of judgment and wrath upon non-believers and sinners alike. Long ago they have forgotten, it's a tool teaching the loving way of Christ.
Again, It's much easier to let the jackass in the front of the room waving his hands spew out seeds of old testament Jewish laws, that most Jews today see as outdated.

On the other hand, if I were Catholic priest I would be against abortion, and all other forms of birth control as well.
Because if such were allowed it would shrink the Catholic population, reducing there income and power. And most importantly reduce the number of desirable children to molest.     

I say the Catholic Church has been an abomination to Christianity, for well over a millennia. And there is plenty of abomination to go around all Abrahamic religions, lest ye think I'm just picking on Christians. At least history teaches me so.

[albrecht]

WWJD: What Would Jesus Do?
From John 8, King James version of the bible. Because as some would tell you it's the only true real bible. All the other bibles are the devils works.  :

4. They say unto him, Master, this woman was taken in adultery, in the very act.
5. Now Moses in the law commanded us, that such should be stoned: but what sayest thou?
6. This they said, tempting him, that they might have to accuse him. But Jesus stooped down, and with his finger wrote on the ground, as though he heard them not.
7. So when they continued asking him, he lifted up himself, and said unto them,  He that is without sin among you, let him first cast a stone at her.

Seems the Pope fancies himself as an old testament Jew. Placing Moses laws above the words of his chosen Messiah.
Maybe the Pope should spend more time reading the Lords words, and less time decreeing what the Lord wants of his people. How can a sinner decree, and judge what is to be punished in Gods realm? The gall to sit in judgment, and decree sin like he were God.

Those good Christians, so busy judging others. They don't have time to read the words of there Lord, and understand them. To them the new testament has turned into a weapon of judgment and wrath upon non-believers and sinners alike. Long ago they have forgotten, it's a tool teaching the loving way of Christ.
Again, It's much easier to let the jackass in the front of the room waving his hands spew out seeds of old testament Jewish laws, that most Jews today see as outdated.

On the other hand, if I were Catholic priest I would be against abortion, and all other forms of birth control as well.
Because if such were allowed it would shrink the Catholic population, reducing there income and power. And most importantly reduce the number of desirable children to molest.     

I say the Catholic Church has been an abomination to Christianity, for well over a millennia. And there is plenty of abomination to go around all Abrahamic religions, lest ye think I'm just picking on Christians. At least history teaches me so.

Geneva Bible is better, right?
Interesting idea of over-population allowing a better selection of boys for the homosexual priests that seem to be in control of the Roman Church. Much evil has been done by Popery. Of course other religions also but they seem to have codified their odd rules in the promotion of such sins. It is amazing, historically, to see how many churches (and even religions) have been caught up in this ecumenical movement and sort of going back to the Catholics, Jews, etc. Bizarrely we have a world in which the most hard-core Protestants are almost militant in the support of Israel. And we have the Pope reaching out to Jews, Muslims, and Presbyterians etc. A weird world.

[Catsmile]

Geneva Bible is better, right?
Interesting idea of over-population allowing a better selection of boys for the homosexual priests that seem to be in control of the Roman Church. Much evil has been done by Popery. Of course other religions also but they seem to have codified their odd rules in the promotion of such sins. It is amazing, historically, to see how many churches (and even religions) have been caught up in this ecumenical movement and sort of going back to the Catholics, Jews, etc. Bizarrely we have a world in which the most hard-core Protestants are almost militant in the support of Israel. And we have the Pope reaching out to Jews, Muslims, and Presbyterians etc. A weird world.

Which bible is better is a matter of opinion, I don't intend to read all of them.
Some stories were sourced and edited from other texts of the time.
A book that has been edited "reinterpreted" over the millennia by the powers that be to control people.
With passages that contradict each other, and entire books deleted or "forgotten".
The book dictated by God to men, with contradictions and missing text.
Seems God ain't sweating the small stuff with his immaculate collection.
It offers some ideas on how one should try to live.
So even the least of us may prosper... helping our fellow man.

The child molesting thing was me being facetious, of course. Caring for innocent life on one hand, while molesting it on the other. Once life is brought into this world they could care less how it lives. Vatican City living like kings in their ivory towers, while millions of children starve. Paying lip service is cheap. The church needs to clean it's own house, before it can even hope to claim the high ground on abomination.

Do not judge, or you too will be judged.
Damnit! Bible shut the hell up! Ur' screwing with THE Popes thunder!

[albrecht]

The child molesting thing was me being facetious, of course. Caring for innocent life on one hand, while molesting it on the other.

I don't know about that, really, considering the decades (or maybe centuries) of abuses and cover-ups in the Roman church. And, if they really care so much about pro-creation and family then why, pray tell, NOT ALLOW the "truest believers", like Priests, nuns, etc to marry and have healthy families?! And how does somebody with no real, self experience in normal life "tend to their flock"? Go to some guy-- maybe even a homosexual who has got something going on "in the rectory" with some abused boy-- to give you advice with your family problems, growing up issues, finances, spiritual battles, etc? When they don't have a real job, not married (much less date), have no children? (I have no problem if someone, anyone wants to become an ascetic or separate themselves or whatever but not to be forced to do so.) A bizarre system and that is why I think there is something at the core of it that is rotten and hence the banking scandals and pedofile scandals. (Not to mention indulgences, crusades, inquisitions, and the like.)
I'm not casting stones but, in some cases when it comes down to abusing kids, I will.

[Catsmile]

I don't know about that, really, considering the decades (or maybe centuries) of abuses and cover-ups in the Roman church. And, if they really care so much about pro-creation and family then why, pray tell, NOT ALLOW the "truest believers", like Priests, nuns, etc to marry and have healthy families?! And how does somebody with no real, self experience in normal life "tend to their flock"? Go to some guy-- maybe even a homosexual who has got something going on "in the rectory" with some abused boy-- to give you advice with your family problems, growing up issues, finances, spiritual battles, etc? When they don't have a real job, not married (much less date), have no children? (I have no problem if someone, anyone wants to become an ascetic or separate themselves or whatever but not to be forced to do so.) A bizarre system and that is why I think there is something at the core of it that is rotten and hence the banking scandals and pedofile scandals. (Not to mention indulgences, crusades, inquisitions, and the like.)
I'm not casting stones but, in some cases when it comes down to abusing kids, I will.

So many good points, Amen!

Don't feel bad about casting a proverbial stone here and there at the church.
They have cast many real stones, you don't even rate by comparison.

[Evil Twin Of Zen]

It's no wonder I am not a fan of religion...

http://www.cnn.com/2014/02/16/us/snake-salvation-pastor-bite/index.html?hpt=hp_c2

i'm stickin to walking on water, calming the seas and respecting the worthless life of the other assholes on this, amazed we're still here, planet 

[area51drone]

Don't feel bad about casting a proverbial stone here and there at the church.
They have cast many real stones, you don't even rate by comparison.

LOL, how true, and true of all Christian religious folk.

[FightTheFuture]

Hard to blame anybody that takes a cynical view of the Catholic Church. They've definitely had some challenges. As we used to say many years ago, ''Catholics make the best Buddhists s''.

However, overall, I find people with a strong  Christian belief to be good folks. I wish there were more of them. 

[RealCool Daddio]

However, overall, I find people with a strong  Christian belief to be good folks.

As are the vast majority of Muslems, and black people, and Jews, and Hindus, and Lituanians, and school teachers, and Onans, and Spaniards, and dish washers, and taxi drivers, and Chartered Accountants, and minor league hockey coaches, drummers in prog rock bands, sandwich artists, and oboe players. How does a belief in the divinity of Jesus make a difference? In the grand scheme of things, what's the difference between a Christian and, I dunno, a member of the Elk's Lodge?

[FightTheFuture]

As are the vast majority of Muslems, and black people, and Jews, and Hindus, and Lituanians, and school teachers, and Onans, and Spaniards, and dish washers, and taxi drivers, and Chartered Accountants, and minor league hockey coaches, drummers in prog rock bands, sandwich artists, and oboe players. How does a belief in the divinity of Jesus make a difference? In the grand scheme of things, what's the difference between a Christian and, I dunno, a member of the Elk's Lodge?

I like pecan pie.


Um,  anything else?

[UnscreenedCaller]

Speaking as an ex-Catholic, the problem with the Catholic church is the hierarchy, who are entrenched in power, both ecclesiastical and temporal. If anything, I welcome the Boston Globe's investigation into the child abuse covering up for shedding light where it was needed. If the various bishops, including the current cardinal of NY and the two diocesan bishops, weren't so intent on covering the church's ass over the years so as to avoid 'scandal', there would be no scandal and no adults who were abused as kids and now demand justice. This comes from putting worldly power and reputation over the interests of the people in their care. It's one of the reasons why I left the church, and the other reason is the marginalization of LGBT people, again by the hierarchy. For all of Benedict's shrill fingerpointing at homosexuals as the root cause of the scandal, he shows his deliberate ignorance of the reality of pedophilia which has nothing to do with homosexuality and everything to do with a pathological attraction to young children. It's a fact that people who are attracted to children also gravitate towards jobs and vocations that bring them access to kids. And, by the way, that doesn't mean the Catholic priesthood exclusively. There are many more good priests than bad ones, and many other denominations, vocations and religions that have their share of abusers, not to mention family members, but they don't get reported as much and should be so that people don't get the idea their kid is safe just because they're not around priests.

[area51drone]

In the grand scheme of things, what's the difference between a Christian and, I dunno, a member of the Elk's Lodge?

30 IQ points.

[RealCool Daddio]

I like pecan pie.


Um,  anything else?

Well, so far we know you like underage Asian prostitutes, heroin, Jesus, and pecan pie.  I am note sure we need know anything else, but you got yourself a great Gary Busey thing going on there.

[b_dubb]

This thread is at times a thoughtful commentary on religion and at other times it borders on civil war.  It's unfortunate that it was titled 'F*#*@!#~! Religion' because that really set the tone for discourse.  And to be clear it is skewed against religion - mostly Christianity it seems. 

I have on many occasion considered starting a thread about religion and Christian apologetics in particular.  I decided against doing so because such conversations frequently devolve into a series of glib insults and shouting matches and what would be the point of having more of that. 

But here we are.  I don't believe this thread has completely gone of the rails but it is definitely headed in that direction.  Maybe it started off the rails.  I don't know.

There have been a great many evils associated with religion over the eons.  But dare I say that there have been a lot of positive outcomes from religion.  I have heard many a scholar claim that without Christianity there would likely not be our current form of Democracy.  But then how did the Greeks come to develop Democracy before Christ was born?  I'm not qualified to comment on this remark but I will say that it's good to live in a country where the people have been told to do unto others as you would have them do unto you.  I wish more people would take this advice.

And that brings us to the main reason I didn't start a thread about religion and Christian apologetics.  Futility.  You can neither prove the existence of god/God any more than you can disprove the existence of god.  Most scientists will say there is no evidence to support the existence of god which is not the same as saying there is no god.  I personally knew scientists who were atheist, agnostic, Christian, etc when I was in college and later when I worked for a respected university. 

I don't have a problem with discussing religion and the existence of god(s).  I do have a problem with attacking someone's beliefs out of hand.  And there is a double standard applied to Christianity vs.  other religions.  No one dare say anything remotely politically incorrect about Islam or Judhaism but it's perfectly fine to ridicule Christians as inbred rednecks.  Not every Christian is a Young Earth Creationist or a redneck or any of the other stereotypes that have been associated with Christians.

[FightTheFuture]

Well, so far we know you like underage Asian prostitutes, heroin, Jesus, and pecan pie.  I am note sure we need know anything else, but you got yourself a great Gary Busey thing going on there.

Not bad, but You excluded a real biggie; tOSU Buckeyes!

GO BUCKS!

[RealCool Daddio]

This thread is at times a thoughtful commentary on religion and at other times it borders on civil war.  It's unfortunate that it was titled 'F*#*@!#~! Religion' because that really set the tone for discourse.  And to be clear it is skewed against religion - mostly Christianity it seems. 

I have on many occasion considered starting a thread about religion and Christian apologetics in particular.  I decided against doing so because such conversations frequently devolve into a series of glib insults and shouting matches and what would be the point of having more of that. 

But here we are.  I don't believe this thread has completely gone of the rails but it is definitely headed in that direction.  Maybe it started off the rails.  I don't know.

There have been a great many evils associated with religion over the eons.  But dare I say that there have been a lot of positive outcomes from religion.  I have heard many a scholar claim that without Christianity there would likely not be our current form of Democracy.  But then how did the Greeks come to develop Democracy before Christ was born?  I'm not qualified to comment on this remark but I will say that it's good to live in a country where the people have been told to do unto others as you would have them do unto you.  I wish more people would take this advice.

And that brings us to the main reason I didn't start a thread about religion and Christian apologetics.  Futility.  You can neither prove the existence of god/God any more than you can disprove the existence of god.  Most scientists will say there is no evidence to support the existence of god which is not the same as saying there is no god.  I personally knew scientists who were atheist, agnostic, Christian, etc when I was in college and later when I worked for a respected university. 

I don't have a problem with discussing religion and the existence of god(s).  I do have a problem with attacking someone's beliefs out of hand.  And there is a double standard applied to Christianity vs.  other religions.  No one dare say anything remotely politically incorrect about Islam or Judhaism but it's perfectly fine to ridicule Christians as inbred rednecks.  Not every Christian is a Young Earth Creationist or a redneck or any of the other stereotypes that have been associated with Christians.

All good points, b_dubb.  I don't really agree with the "double standard" though.  In my experience, Christians go out of their way to interject their specific faith into any conversation on religious matters (just look at how quickly the God or no God thread became all about a Christian god), whereas Jews, Buddhists, whatever, very seldom feel the need to turn every conversation into a discussion of their particular belief system.  If Christians, or any other adherent to a belief system, are going to be offended when their beliefs are criticized or outright mocked, I would suggest that they should stop mentioning Jesus every time they open their mouths.

[West of the Rockies]

A very eloquent offering, Bdubb.  I grew up in a religious home, attended parochial school, was an altar boy, and had a best friend who obtained multiple degrees from Concirdia University where he studied apologetics and became a minister.  (He has since passed away.). I lean agnostic/atheist these days.  I know that faith has caused appalling destruction but has been a force for great good, too.

Zealotry begets blindness to our common humanity, IMO.  But again we're talking about fundamentalism, which always makes me nervous, no matter what shape it comes in.  I want people to be free to believe what they wish;  I HOPE, however, that they don't embrace religion to the detriment of others.

I agree that this thread is now largely a steaming hot mess.

[area51drone]

The thread actually started as a dig on those idiots who thought they could handle snakes and "god" would protect them.   I would have started it for any religion offering up such stupidity.   Arguing this is futile - either you believe or you do not, but I would love it if this thread caused even one person to give up their beliefs.    You can be a good person without a belief in a god, just as you can be a bad person with a belief in a higher power.

[UnscreenedCaller]

This thread is at times a thoughtful commentary on religion and at other times it borders on civil war.  It's unfortunate that it was titled 'F*#*@!#~! Religion' because that really set the tone for discourse.  And to be clear it is skewed against religion - mostly Christianity it seems. 

I have on many occasion considered starting a thread about religion and Christian apologetics in particular.  I decided against doing so because such conversations frequently devolve into a series of glib insults and shouting matches and what would be the point of having more of that. 

But here we are.  I don't believe this thread has completely gone of the rails but it is definitely headed in that direction.  Maybe it started off the rails.  I don't know.

There have been a great many evils associated with religion over the eons.  But dare I say that there have been a lot of positive outcomes from religion.  I have heard many a scholar claim that without Christianity there would likely not be our current form of Democracy.  But then how did the Greeks come to develop Democracy before Christ was born?  I'm not qualified to comment on this remark but I will say that it's good to live in a country where the people have been told to do unto others as you would have them do unto you.  I wish more people would take this advice.

And that brings us to the main reason I didn't start a thread about religion and Christian apologetics.  Futility.  You can neither prove the existence of god/God any more than you can disprove the existence of god.  Most scientists will say there is no evidence to support the existence of god which is not the same as saying there is no god.  I personally knew scientists who were atheist, agnostic, Christian, etc when I was in college and later when I worked for a respected university. 

I don't have a problem with discussing religion and the existence of god(s).  I do have a problem with attacking someone's beliefs out of hand.  And there is a double standard applied to Christianity vs.  other religions.  No one dare say anything remotely politically incorrect about Islam or Judhaism but it's perfectly fine to ridicule Christians as inbred rednecks.  Not every Christian is a Young Earth Creationist or a redneck or any of the other stereotypes that have been associated with Christians.

Over the summer I took an online course in Christian/Catholic apologetics. It was an interesting course, with some thought provoking arguments for. Disclosure: I was required to take the course, but wasn't sorry I did.

I consider myself to be agnostic, rather than atheist. My problem is with the heirarchy of my church, as I mentioned above but not with the rank and file, or the giants of the church, all people who fell and got up again: Oscar Romero, Dorothy Day, Francis of Assisi, Maximilian Kolbe,  all those nuns who educated a willful teenaged girl. To my understanding, that's the point of a church, to be a pilgrim with fellow pilgrims, seeking something outside ourselves in community. Whatever form that takes, is what church is. These days, I'm not at all particular about denominations or sects. I'm even less fussy about what people call their god or their god's gender. It's the seeking that counts and the spirit of community.

I would welcome a courteous discussion about religion. As far as Christianity is concerned, monks kept the light through the dark ages with those hand reproduced manuscripts. That counts for a lot, and all the acts of sacrifice for others down through the ages made by people who were true Christians in spirit, and n ot just word, also counts. If Christianity gets a bad name thise days, it's mostly from the Fred Phelps of the world and others like him, including our own bishops, who have forgotten that Christ told his followers to love their neighbor as themselves, right after loving god as themselves. There was no asterisk at the end of that command excluding some and raising others.

And it's true that not every Christian is an inbred redneck who is all up on Mary riding a dinosaur to Bethlehem. Unfortunately, they get the press and they are the ones trying to force beliefs rather than science in the science curriculum. But to say they represent all is a disservice to the majority who don't hold those beliefs.

If you start that thread, b_dubb, I'll post and I promise to keep my remarks civil.

[Catsmile]

I'll just leave this here...

[area51drone]

I'll just leave this here...

Knock, Knock, "Shit Happens" is my favorite. LOL 

[onan]

Knock, Knock, "Shit Happens" is my favorite. LOL 

And thank goodness, I have jesus to tell me that.