20130925 - Matthew Alper - God Part of the Brain

[Heather Wade]

Finally found it:

Thunderdrum Scott Fitzgerald

Turn it up to 11.  Very obscure tripping music from the 90's.
Enjoy. 

*experience a little magic*

[b_dubb]

Alper seems to have trapped himself inside a series of interdependent if statements.  that's fine for writing computer code.  terrible for living.  i don't personally think science and religion are mutually exclusive.  of course i don't take the Bible as literal truth either. 

[onan]

If you think it's hyperbole, then you've missed a decade of freak out over alternative energy schemes and policy designed to hold humanity back instead of advance it. That all came about because some people apparently forget that in science, you're supposed to be skeptical of any claim, including ones dealing with climate change.

I think you are confusing politics and fanaticism with science.

[cosman]

That makes no sense. Obviously Barney was wrong. Just like Gates saying computers will never need more than 40 megs of ram. But god wasn't the one to come along and prove those things wrong.

Science will get things wrong but will keep pushing the envelope until it is right. religion will still have us eating bread crumbs.

I am not saying we are not emotional beings. I am saying that just emotions keeps us from being human. Rather emotions alone will keep us as animals. without rational thought instincts take over and then we are barbarians.

"Everything that can be invented has been invented."
- Charles H. Duell, Commissioner, U.S. patent office, 1899
Duell was presaged in this observation., In his 1843 report to Congress, the then commissioner of the Patent Office, Henry L. Ellsworth, included the following comment: "The advancement of the arts, from year to year, taxes our credulity and seems to presage the arrival of that period when human improvement must end."
i feel that the only limiter to envelope pushing is sociatal and personal entropy. god, residing in that lower rear left corner of our conscience for the last 13 millennia, and some people refuse to recognize, won't allow that entropy to develop.

[onan]

Not sure where you are going with the excluding emotion and sensitivty. I'm just trying to point out what even Art remarked on air, in that he profoundly embraces science. But in essence, that doesn't necessarily mean God does or doesn't exist.  The difference for Art would be that he sees science as a tool, and can use it as the situation fits.  Whereas, Alper applied it to everything and anything without question.  This is the gist that Art was pushing slowly to Alper over the show, that science had become his religion. Again, there is a difference.  I am not saying any more than this.  If there are other intangibles, they are unintended.

Like Art did , I too will say that I LOVE science. I love pragmatism. But for me, it is not my god, nor is it a religion. It suits my needs, not the other way around. It is a tool to be used and appreciated for what it actually is.

Usage of deign was in contrast to my usage of "supreme humans" who think they are above the things that were created long before they came on the scene.  To understand how something works seems to give many like Alper the ego to address reality as a matter of deigning their existence by dismissing or approving. This as opposed to being a little more humble like some who might approach things larger than themselves.  I'm guessing this may come across as one of those intangibles you are referring to.

I couldn't say science is inflexible, as it is only a tool.  It is a way to rightly remove a lot of the human garbage from the equation (invaluable). It's who's holding it that is the criteria, and how they are holding it.  I like to split hairs.... sorry.

I keep science and religion at arm's length.  However, for me neither of them is the bogey men, just the fools wielding them.

I've lurked for a bit, and I consider you really smart.  I'm just talkin' for talkin'

I guess I went down that road because I see it all too often. I am not sure I can explain the difference between belief and and knowledge.

One depends on expected results learned over previous experience and the other accepts fanciful tales with no discrimination. that being said it really doesn't get to the heart of it.

To me, you equivocate science and religion. And no doubt about it, science's roots are in religion. But at some point there is a demarcation. So to continue to see them as two equal masters does give me pause.

[Falkie2013]

That makes no sense. Obviously Barney was wrong. Just like Gates saying computers will never need more than 40 megs of ram. But god wasn't the one to come along and prove those things wrong.

Science will get things wrong but will keep pushing the envelope until it is right. religion will still have us eating bread crumbs.

I am not saying we are not emotional beings. I am saying that just emotions keeps us from being human. Rather emotions alone will keep us as animals. without rational thought instincts take over and then we are barbarians.

I should have phrased it better, for which my apologies.
Barney Oldfield didn't say it.
A major scientist of the day did.
To bring up a more recent case, I can remember when the bulletin board systems of the 1970s and Apple and other magazines were talking about the new and upcoming 1200 baud acoustic modems and how we'd never need anything faster than that to send data.
Of course, I go back to the ancient days when me, Fred Flintstone and Barney would hang out at the lodge and if we needed to send a message, we'd take a stick and some tar from the tar pit and scratch it on the rock & throw it at the next caveman.
" Help. Dinosaur eating Barney. Send Help Quick. "
Retro rock mail techonology at its finest.
Almost like today's post office which works the same way.
And probably how Snoory sends his email to people once Tommy shows him how to uncage his pet rock.

[Falkie2013]

Finally found it:

Thunderdrum Scott Fitzgerald

Turn it up to 11.  Very obscure tripping music from the 90's.
Enjoy. 

*experience a little magic*

Mayan email ?
Hmm, might be a neat bumper music for Art, though nothing beats that oooga-shocka song for weirdness.

[aldousburbank]

My religion is the idiosyncratic science of personal experience. There's only one member and two rules: doubt everyone just a little more than yourself, trust the process.

[onan]

I should have phrased it better, for which my apologies.
Barney Oldfield didn't say it.
A major scientist of the day did.
To bring up a more recent case, I can remember when the bulletin board systems of the 1970s and Apple and other magazines were talking about the new and upcoming 1200 baud acoustic modems and how we'd never need anything faster than that to send data.
Of course, I go back to the ancient days when me, Fred Flintstone and Barney would hang out at the lodge and if we needed to send a message, we'd take a stick and some tar from the tar pit and scratch it on the rock & throw it at the next caveman.
" Help. Dinosaur eating Barney. Send Help Quick. "
Retro rock mail techonology at its finest.
Almost like today's post office which works the same way.
And probably how Snoory sends his email to people once Tommy shows him how to uncage his pet rock.

If anything Falkie, you are kind of proving my point. Science discovers new things and moves on. Rather than be stopped by some highly ranked non-thinker.

[Falkie2013]

I think you are confusing politics and fanaticism with science.

I am always amused over rhe cries about global warming and man and his machinery being the primary cause of same.
It was not long ago that we had the little ice age and a volcanic eruption in the 1800s produced a year without a summer in the US & Europe where people froze and starved to death because the atmosphere was so full of dust that crops wouldn't grow. I think it took about 3 years to recover totally from that if memory serves.
Nature and the sun have the biggest effects on climate change.
And not Ed  Dames either.
One day the sun is supposed to turn into a red giant and cook the whole solar system.
IF we get past type 0.1 I think we'll be able to just move the whole planet and make our own sun, like James Blish did with his cities in flight stories.

http://www.en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Year_Without_a_Summer


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[steelbot]

DAMN - no new show tonight!

[SciFiAuthor]

I think you are confusing politics and fanaticism with science.

No, I think I said that people were confusing fanaticism and politics with science and treating it like it's a religion. Reread my post, I don't want to have to address things I didn't say.

[morphiaflow]

Art Bell
No new show tonight, I was just told the Studio's in Washington DC are down, no phone lines. So it's a long Weekend for me! Whitley will be on Tuesday.
2 minutes ago · Pahrump, NV

[onan]

I am always amused over rhe cries about global warming and man and his machinery being the primary cause of same.
It was not long ago that we had the little ice age and a volcanic eruption in the 1800s produced a year without a summer in the US & Europe where people froze and starved to death because the atmosphere was so full of dust that crops wouldn't grow. I think it took about 3 years to recover totally from that if memory serves.
Nature and the sun have the biggest effects on climate change.
And not Ed  Dames either.
One day the sun is supposed to turn into a red giant and cook the whole solar system.
IF we get past type 0.1 I think we'll be able to just move the whole planet and make our own sun, like James Blish did with his cities in flight stories.

http://www.en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Year_Without_a_Summer

Funny how most scientists disagree with you. And not meant as an insult but your amusment means little to me. There have been several writings on volcanic eruptions, and the sun. I doubt you have read anything that goes against your beliefs however.

Not that I want to get into several arguments with you but the sun running out of energy has no bearing on the here and now... we are talking billions of years. 500 million before the sun starts ripping our atmosphere away.

[jazmunda]

Art Bell
No new show tonight, I was just told the Studio's in Washington DC are down, no phone lines. So it's a long Weekend for me! Whitley will be on Tuesday.
2 minutes ago · Pahrump, NV

Studio is down or has he succumbed to his first cold of the new series?

I wonder who was bumped from Tuesday to accommodate Whitley?

Great now I have no excuse to not work.

[jazmunda]

Did everyone hear the "bell curve" remark last night? Awwwwwkward.

Wasn't it a "bulging bell curve"?

Alper's retort that Art's wife would be happy with that was priceless and comment of the series so far.

[Falkie2013]

Funny how most scientists disagree with you. And not meant as an insult but your amusment means little to me. There have been several writings on volcanic eruptions, and the sun. I doubt you have read anything that goes against your beliefs however.

Not that I want to get into several arguments with you but the sun running out of energy has no bearing on the here and now... we are talking billions of years. 500 million before the sun starts ripping our atmosphere away.

My point is that the sun puts out far more energy than all the manufacturing, cars and man ever have or ever will.
As to my amusement, global warming fanatics discount the effects of nature and solar activity on the climate of the earth.
And neve assume that I don't keep up on current day science.
I just don't agree with the conclusions of the global warming proponents.
We've already seen proof how many of them are leftists and deliberately fudged their data to make it agree with their erroneous conclusions, didn't we ?

Link to Sandia labs scientific source pdf that says the sun puts out more energy in an hour than we use in a year from fossil, nuclear and all resources combined.

Thus proving my top of the head point from what I've read in the past.
I don't just sit here and listen to Art or Coast idly.
I'm constantly looking up things, reading new books when I can't sleep or when I'm not playing Civ or Diablo 3 at the same time.
I can mutitask you know and once called Isacc Asimov on the phone to ask him a question about bees, long before we had the intenet but when we had bbs systems.
Unlike some people I could mention ( you KNOW who that is ) I do research on things I write about and when I'm wrong I'll admit it and look up the FACTS,
I don't have 17 bookcases just to collect dust on the shelves.
If the net crashes or the power goes out, you have expensive paperweights, while I can still walk over and look stuff up in a book by using a candle, solar powered light or moonlight.

www.sandia.gov/~jytsao/Solar FAQs.pdf

I hate Firefoz's decision to start cutting off urls of web pages.
Sorry.




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[Heather Wade]

Art Bell
No new show tonight, I was just told the Studio's in Washington DC are down, no phone lines. So it's a long Weekend for me! Whitley will be on Tuesday.
2 minutes ago · Pahrump, NV

We broke it.   

[MV/Liberace!]

Art Bell
No new show tonight, I was just told the Studio's in Washington DC are down, no phone lines. So it's a long Weekend for me! Whitley will be on Tuesday.
2 minutes ago · Pahrump, NV

well sheeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeit.

[Cynnie]

Studio is down or has he succumbed to his first cold of the new series?

I wonder who was bumped from Tuesday to accommodate Whitley?

Great now I have no excuse to not work.

This sucks ass

[jazmunda]

well sheeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeit.

Does that mean you stayed up late for nothing?

[bateman]

Art Bell
No new show tonight, I was just told the Studio's in Washington DC are down, no phone lines. So it's a long Weekend for me! Whitley will be on Tuesday.
2 minutes ago · Pahrump, NV

[bateman]

http://artbell.com/our-phone-lines-are-down-replay-tonight/

Hahahaha, someone is suggesting Jorch drove into a telephone pole.

[jazmunda]

I will see your Vader and raise you a Michael Scott.



Ok I was bluffing. No one beats Vader. I fold.

[onan]

My point is that the sun puts out far more energy than all the manufacturing, cars and man ever have or ever will.
As to my amusement, global warming fanatics discount the effects of nature and solar activity on the climate of the earth.
And neve assume that I don't keep up on current day science.
I just don't agree with the conclusions of the global warming proponents.
We've already seen proof how many of them are leftists and deliberately fudged their data to make it agree with their erroneous conclusions, didn't we ?

Link to Sandia labs scientific source pdf that says the sun puts out more energy in an hour than we use in a year from fossil, nuclear and all resources combined.

Thus proving my top of the head point from what I've read in the past.
I don't just sit here and listen to Art or Coast idly.
I'm constantly looking up things, reading new books when I can't sleep or when I'm not playing Civ or Diablo 3 at the same time.
I can mutitask you know and once called Isacc Asimov on the phone to ask him a question about bees, long before we had the intenet but when we had bbs systems.
Unlike some people I could mention ( you KNOW who that is ) I do research on things I write about and when I'm wrong I'll admit it and look up the FACTS,
I don't have 17 bookcases just to collect dust on the shelves.
If the net crashes or the power goes out, you have expensive paperweights, while I can still walk over and look stuff up in a book by using a candle, solar powered light or moonlight.

www.sandia.gov/~jytsao/Solar FAQs.pdf

I hate Firefoz's decision to start cutting off urls of web pages.
Sorry.

I don't want to turn this into another "take it to the politics" thread".

but again you are all over the place and saying little. Yes, duh, the sun produces lots of power. And what percentage of that energy actually hits the Earth? the net effect of the suns up and doen shifts in evergy output is less than .01%.

I don't care how many book shelves you have. That falls into the so what department. You don't listen to a consensus of scientists... why because you are more learned with your 17 book shelves?

Rush or drudge has told you that volcanoes put more sulfur and other stuff into the atmosphere than all the autos and cows combined. What you seem to miss is scientists explaining the major differences in the chemical compositions and why the man-made stuff is more dangerous.

but hey you called asimov once. And the fudging of data, again not even half the story. But it is enough for you to completely buy into what you want to believe.

You do this shit all the time. And never consider there is more than one side.

[onan]

No, I think I said that people were confusing fanaticism and politics with science and treating it like it's a religion. Reread my post, I don't want to have to address things I didn't say.

I reread your post... you are confused.

[SciFiAuthor]

I reread your post... you are confused.

I don't think you quite got what I said. Either that or you are uncomfortable with objective questioning of climate change, in which case you're just religious.

[cmotors]

I guess I went down that road because I see it all too often. I am not sure I can explain the difference between belief and and knowledge.

One depends on expected results learned over previous experience and the other accepts fanciful tales with no discrimination. that being said it really doesn't get to the heart of it.

To me, you equivocate science and religion. And no doubt about it, science's roots are in religion. But at some point there is a demarcation. So to continue to see them as two equal masters does give me pause.

Yeah, I'm not purposefully equivocating science and religion.  That's like saying pragmatism and faith are the same. I totally get what you are saying, and agree with you. I have no investment in thinking otherwise.

Maybe put a different way, it may sum things up a little better of what I'm getting at. Because one studies science, one is not automatically impervious to biasing a measurement. It happens. One good key to science is not to let your own intentions and subjective experience affect what you are studying or experimenting with. Ie, don't let the human garbage affect pure objectivity. Also, make sure to base things on hard evidence, or working credible theory's. It's fine and dandy to apply that to study, discovery and experimentation. However, once one takes that choice to start applying it to everything as if that is a definition of the entirety of life, you are no longer just using the tool (science) to deduce, filter, and extrapolate data for a purposeful endeavor. You are now using it to define everything. That mechanism in science is for objectively finding truth by taking our bias and inefficiency out of the process... in what we study. When you expect it to define everything by elevating it to that level of importance, you arrive at a similarity to how people behave in religion with zealotry. Of course, when one looks at a zealot, you just see a collection of faithful statements with no quantifiable substance.  When you look at the scientist and see quantifiable facts, one would consider the scientist more reliable. To split hairs a bit further, it's not the facts (or lack thereof) between them that makes them the same. It is the fact that both elevated the underlying mechanism of their respective pursuits to define the entirety of life that makes them the same. It is much clearer to see in the religious zealot than it is in the scientist, since one will focus on comparing what facts they have each collected. Ie. at least the scientist tried to define all of existence with "some" facts. The zealot, not so much.

My prediction is that science will at some point improve itself by accounting for that type of bias. Science's strength is removing our own crap from the equation, and that mechanism for filtering data has its place in verifying our processes, not for defining everything.

Not trying to be right or change anyone's opinion

[dortmunder]

Aaargh! Damned D.C.! Typical.

[onan]

I don't think you quite got what I said. Either that or you are uncomfortable with objective questioning of climate change, in which case you're just religious.

I am on a lot pf pain meds tonight. Maybe not being all that rational. Same to you Falkie.

I am not a consortioum of knowledge regarding climate change/global warming or whatever you want to use to try to discredit.

But I have read a great deal over the last decade. And I will side with the 0ver 95% of scientists that agree climate change is real and man is a significant contributer.

And quite frankly I am tired of discussing the subject with anyone that gets their information from the less than 5%.

I am extremely tired of turning this into a political debate. I am tired of using policy wonks and talking heads as authorities on the subject. And I am more than extremely tired of broken Sandia links or suggesting global warming is a cult.