United States Independence Day sentiments

[Yorkshire pud]

I'm not going to indulge your anti-Americanism this weekend.

Jeeeze you stereotype yourself with the implied 'you hate America' crap. I'm not anti American. It's ludicrous to self proclaim your place of birth as the 'greatest'. Just as it carries little credibility to self praise on a personal level. But it's good you didn't read the post where I mentioned great American individuals.

[Who]

This country is the greatest story the world has ever told.

I've always been partial to the Wizard of Oz.

[3OctaveFart]

Even one of the 10 greatest Britons ever had American bloodlines.




Stuff like this clenches Pud's buttcheeks so there's no use arguing with him.

On a thread like this, just pat him on the head and send him on his way. He and his kind think we're all like Falkie.

[Yorkshire pud]

Even one of the 10 greatest Britons ever had American bloodlines.




Stuff like this clenches Pud's buttcheeks so there's no use arguing with him.

On a thread like this, just pat him on the head and send him on his way. He and his kind think we're all like Falkie.

Shhhh. Stop thinking you know what I'm thinking. Shhh. 

[DigitalPigSnuggler]

It seems we've entered into a state of perpetual warfare. And the war machine needs fresh meat.

For the USA, it's a policy that goes back to the 1950's, discussed by Eisenhower, Noam Chomsky, and Gore Vidal, among others.

[SciFiAuthor]

As a non-American, hopefully I can shed some light on that.  As a non-American, I was always given the impressions that Americans only learn about Americans and only acknowledge American accomplishments.  I can say from reading this board that most of you here have broader international knowledge than I, but this has been a basic truth I was brought up with.  And it's pretty offensive if its true, so it becomes the obligation of the non-American to teach Americans about the world beyond their borders.  For instance, I was taught that the only scientists and inventors Americans ever pay any heed are people like Ben Franklin, Thomas Edison, and those such as Tesla or Einstein or Bell who adopted America as their own country (actually, we Canadians take credit for Bell too).  But when I think of the great scientific and engineering accomplishments of history, those guys (except Einstein) don't even make my short list.  I think of names like Copernicus, Galileo, Newton, Watt, James Maxwell, Max Planck, and Marconi.  Anyway, if this board represents a random sample of American beliefs and knowledge I would have to humbly submit my ignorance and adjust my beliefs.

It's actually worse than that. Most Americans couldn't tell you where Thomas Edison was from, truth be told. Most of us, I'd say 90% plus have no clue who Tesla even was. There has been a great dumbing down of America since the 1960's coupled with a pop cultural push for stupidity where smart people were ridiculed as nerds and geeks for most of the 80's and 90's. Stupid people can be told who to vote for, no need to try to convince.

The sampling you see on Bellgab are the smart among us who seek out Art because he does an intelligent program. The rest listen to Dave.

[SciFiAuthor]

Wrong! I don't deminish what America has achieved or tries to represent. What I do get tight about is the attitude that some take that America is the greatest country (context being worthy rather than size) in the world. I stress I know it isn't a universal attitude but it's one that is perceived throughout the rest of the world. The Iraq war (2nd) is a prime example. The attitude taken by a great many US troops towards the Iraqis was disgusting. The attitude made in that parody bid 'Fuck yeah'. Only it isn't a parody. Is it really any wonder that because of those arrogant pigs, the US is (unfairly in my view) treated with suspicion and outright hatred in some parts of the world? A tyrannical dictator was usurped and a positive opportunity was missed completely (illegal war aside) to establish the West and the USA in particular as the positive and benevolent power perception it indoctrinates the folks back home with. Instead they came away with the shit sticking to their shoes and no easy way of removing themselves from the stink.

Leftist bullshit. A few bad soldiers (of which Britain had its share) does not equate the conduct of an army. While you call them pigs, we treat them for PTSD and horrific injuries from IED's. As far as getting treated with suspicion, given that Muslims are stabbing your veterans in public you might ask yourself "is there a problem with Islamic culture"? There are two sides to every coin, you know.

Or simply visit Africa and show off your accent. Then you'll see what true suspicion is. Or talk to a Kurd or an Albanian and ask them what they think of US soldiers.

It doesn't help that such an insular society has one of the fewest passport holding populations in the world, so opportunities for US citizens to see the world through the eyes of other peoples is almost non existent; depending instead on what the idiot lantern in the corner tells them to think, believe and understand. Ignorance breeds further ignorance, and until that is addressed full on it will continue to be the norm. It probably explains why the US has the highest prison population per capita in the world. You also enjoy the quaint statistic of 50% believe angels are real and a truly disturbing equally high proportion think they've been abducted by aliens. That's not the sign of a modern mature society. America has produced truly wondrous people and things. Great writers, musicians, artists and thinkers. I think it needs to separate religion from science and logic. But the religious lobby is all pervasive and insidious and it's tentacles far reaching, dangerous and restrictive to all. The very same primitive thinking that the perverse and dangerous cavemen who use Islam is prevelant in philosophy by the alleged Christian far right in the US. Remove that and you're free again.

The passport thing is a euro leftwing canard, something the BBC or whoever invented to poke fun, but it's actually not true if you fact check it. The US state department's numbers say that there are 109 million valid US passports in circulation, about a third of our population. But I mean really, do you need the actual number of US passports to conclude that the canard is bogus? How many Indian or Chinese can afford to travel? How about Zimbabwe, what percentage do they hold? When was the last time you ran into a Mongolian tourist in Yorkshire? The whole thing was ridiculous from the start.

Everything else you said came from the television over there. It's not quite the truth on the ground in the US. Our problems stem more from the great dumbing down, drug use, the pop culture, the gang banger culture, the drug culture and a massive, massive illegal immigration problem where we're absorbing the worst Mexico has to offer. The Christians are a non-issue, they haven't been politically important in 20 years and even then they couldn't even get Roe vs. Wade overturned much less press any other part of their agenda. They were just an obvious choice for secular liberal national medias worldwide to hold up and make a nationally useful "we're better than them" dynamic, but in reality they are not the issue. The bible thumper with a thick Mississippi accent makes for good TV over there, I understand, but the reality is that we do have a west, north and east. And even the south isn't too bad when you actually dig in and visit it.

[chefist]

Wonder what impact Europe's economy would have if all of us uneducated, racist, selfish, egocentric Americans stopped traveling and spending money there...hmmmm

And it's clear that Europe's hatred of US Christians (religions other than the Church of England and the Catholic Church) is the deeply rooted in their society...which is why the Pilgrims/Quackers/Etc came to the New World in the first place...

[SciFiAuthor]

Wonder what impact Europe's economy would have if all of us uneducated, racist, selfish, egocentric Americans stopped traveling and spending money there...hmmmm

And it's clear that Europe's hatred of US Christians (religions other than the Church of England and the Catholic Church) is the deeply rooted in their society...which is why the Pilgrims/Quackers/Etc came to the New World in the first place...

It's really just a British thing. The mainland Europeans aren't so bad to varying degrees other than the French who hate everyone equally no matter the nationality. Italians, Poles, Spaniards, Greeks, even the Germans aren't too bad. Even Denmark, where being a prick is a national pass time isn't so bad once you understand why they are the way they are. Stay the hell away from Sweden though. Those fuckers have an anti-American superiority complex that makes Britain look like a walk in the park.

[chefist]

It's really just a British thing. The mainland Europeans aren't so bad to varying degrees other than the French who hate everyone equally no matter the nationality. Italians, Poles, Spaniards, Greeks, even the Germans aren't too bad. Even Denmark, where being a prick is a national pass time isn't so bad once you understand why they are the way they are. Stay the hell away from Sweden though. Those fuckers have an anti-American superiority complex that makes Britain look like a walk in the park.

I've seen some of that in my travels...I love Spain (because I speak Spanish probably), and the people are amazing! Like you said, even in Germany I meet very kind people who don't care that I'm American...In provencial France, the folks are hospitable, but the larger cities not so much. Italy and the Czech Rep. are great! Prague is my favorite city in Europe!

I have two very close friends who are British, and have now emigrated to the US...they love it here, which is why they moved their business to Florida...

[SciFiAuthor]

I've seen some of that in my travels...I love Spain (because I speak Spanish probably), and the people are amazing! Like you said, even in Germany I meet very kind people who don't care that I'm American...In provencial France, the folks are hospitable, but the larger cities not so much. Italy and the Czech Rep. are great! Prague is my favorite city in Europe!

I have two very close friends who are British, and have now emigrated to the US...they love it here, which is why they moved their business to Florida...

Spain is definitely cool with amazing food. I really like the Italians, they're all crooks, but really friendly and nice about it. Prague is beautiful, but I've only been there once for a short time so I don't really have a feel for the culture yet. France is just France, outside the cities it's fine, but they just have a certain attitude that their language and culture is superior to everyone else's and we sort of have that same kind of attitude so it clashes. I've been to the Netherlands four times but can't remember any of them 

It's mainly the British left that thinks we're vile. Their ideological handlers at some point figured out that by pointing to America eyes get taken off of their own national failures. I was talking with another Brit in here a week or so ago about British radio so I've been using Tunein to check out various British radio stations. Some of the shit that's said is outright funny it's so off-base. 

[chefist]

It's mainly the British left that think's we're vile. Their ideological handlers at some point figured out that by pointing to America eyes get taken off of their own national failures. I was talking with another Brit in here a week or so ago about British radio so I've been using Tunein to check out various British radio stations. Some of the shit that's said is outright funny it's so off-base.

YP is not a very good ambassador that's for sure!

[albrecht]

Spain is definitely cool with amazing food. I really like the Italians, they're all crooks, but really friendly and nice about it. Prague is beautiful, but I've only been there once for a short time so I don't really have a feel for the culture yet. France is just France, outside the cities it's fine, but they just have a certain attitude that their language and culture is superior to everyone else's and we sort of have that same kind of attitude so it clashes. I've been to the Netherlands four times but can't remember any of them.

It's mainly the British left that think's we're vile. Their ideological handlers at some point figured out that by pointing to America eyes get taken off of their own national failures. I was talking with another Brit in here a week or so ago about British radio so I've been using Tunein to check out various British radio stations. Some of the shit that's said is outright funny it's so off-base.

I've never had an bad experiences in Britain. Sure a few of the wild-eyed, ant-war protesting ilk will chant etc. But legitimate people (those with jobs) or older people have always seemed fine, to me. I never had problems with the hooligans at matches even. Though, I guess, I was on the "right side." The only issue I have with the French, and to a degree Belgians, is this self-inflated sense they have of cuisine, wine, fashion, etc. And how their shopkeepers seem to be annoyed if they have customers.

The Dutch, real Dutch not the Moroccan and other Islamic scum immigrants, were pretty hardworking and sensible folks. And the system, though "socialist" was very pro-business- especially for foreign investment and importing goods to the rest of Europe. Labor there was a little problematic but nothing compare to labor rules and attitudes in shall-we-say Southern European countries. The OLDER Eastern European seemed to love Americans. I don't know about younger set but have a relative working over in Prague for the last few years and says it is fine. Nothing but good things to say about the Nordic Countries (never been to Iceland or Finland or Sweden though.) And never had any problems in Switzerland, Germany, or Austria. Italy was almost pick-pocketed and almost pick-pocketed at Gare de Nord in Paris. Gypsy kids both times, so I won't count them as actually French or Italian.

Everyone should be proud of their country or try to make it better. Fleeing should only be done in extreme cases of war, famine, etc and when one emigrates you should adopt its language, culture, values, and obey their laws. If you don't like Western Civilization, our laws, our legal immigration process, or our culture- or whatever- than stay back in your country.

I don't see the USA as being the best country, and certainly never perfect as it is made up of men, because of some innate bloodline but is great (or at least formerly great since if you don't have a border are you really a country?)) because of the idea of freedom and, at least until recently, the idea of the individual being important and limited government, especially on a national level. Much of those ideas came from ideas on the Continent and especially in Britain. What is unfortunate is to see much of the countries from which those ideas originated go the opposite direction to where the State is the master and now, even more unbelievable, to actually allow unelected bureaucrats, judges, and regulators in OTHER countries dictate, or overrule, their laws and sovereignty as a nation! Obama is really pushing for this here also (and has some fellow-traveling Republicans on board.)

[SciFiAuthor]

I've never had an bad experiences in Britain. Sure a few of the wild-eyed, ant-war protesting ilk will chant etc. But legitimate people (those with jobs) or older people have always seemed fine, to me. I never had problems with the hooligans at matches even. Though, I guess, I was on the "right side." The only issue I have with the French, and to a degree Belgians, is this self-inflated sense they have of cuisine, wine, fashion, etc. And how their shopkeepers seem to be annoyed if they have customers.

I was there for work, so I was basically stuck with a bunch of 25-35 year-old engineers getting dragged to pubs every weekend and having to deal with the youth of London. If I hear the words "atomic bomb" in an English accent one more time I'm going to explode like one -- that was one of their favorite "criticize America" talking points, Hiroshima. And since I was with people that knew my origins, I couldn't use the old "I'm from Canada, eh" trick that served me very well while dealing with the Swedes. That's not to say that I didn't run into nice people, I did, they were just older and probably tories. And the UK is a nice place, lots to see, history everywhere, and even the food was surprisingly alright given its reputation, just avoid the young people. I also got the distinct impression that if you're American and friendly, they think you're instantly shallow and misrepresenting yourself. I never did figure that one out.

The Dutch were basically neutral, they have a permissive streak a mile wide which I found fun. Belgium I didn't see much of other than driving through Brussels and meeting someone there for lunch. Germans are just odd, you can tell that they are a culture that's been through massive upheaval and they, even today, are somewhat uncomfortable in their own skin. Nice enough though, especially the Bavarians, but there's a certain self-inflicted stigma going on. Eastern Europeans I generally didn't have a problem with. The Poles in particular seemed to actually like Americans, as did the Finns. I had no problems in Austria, though politically speaking they have a right wing in that country that isn't very nice. I met one once, and he was basically an unreconstructed Nazi.

I see the US as a first world country. There are numerous other first world countries.

[albrecht]

I was there for work, so I was basically stuck with a bunch of 25-35 year-old engineers getting dragged to pubs every weekend and having to deal with the youth of London. If I hear the words "atomic bomb" in an English accent one more time I'm going to explode like one -- that was one of their favorite "criticize America" talking points, Hiroshima. And since I was with people that knew my origins, I couldn't use the old "I'm from Canada, eh" trick that served me very well while dealing with the Swedes. That's not to say that I didn't run into nice people, I did, they were just older and probably tories. And the UK is a nice place, lots to see, history everywhere, and even the food was surprisingly alright given its reputation, just avoid the young people. I also got the distinct impression that if you're American and friendly, they think you're instantly shallow and misrepresenting yourself. I never did figure that one out.

The Dutch were basically neutral, they have a permissive streak a mile wide which I found fun. Belgium I didn't see much of other than driving through Brussels and meeting someone there for lunch. Germans are just odd, you can tell that they are a culture that's been through massive upheaval and they, even today, are somewhat uncomfortable in their own skin. Nice enough though, especially the Bavarians, but there's a certain self-inflicted stigma going on. Eastern Europeans I generally didn't have a problem with. The Poles in particular seemed to actually like Americans, as did the Finns. I had no problems in Austria, though politically speaking they have a right wing in that country that isn't very nice. I met one once, and he was basically an unreconstructed Nazi.

I see the US as a first world country. There are numerous other first world countries.

Yes, one of the criticisms I did see that I forgot about in Britain was the "can do" and positive, overly-friendly. ("every yank acts like a salesman" etc.) And, especially with Germans, but also other cultures to a degree or another, that Americans "share too much." Actually I agree, to a point, in that I don't like this idea of sharing intimate, personal information with perfect strangers. And that "we don't mean it" (like a salesman): "how are you?" (do we really care?), using Christian names even during the initial meeting (as opposed to using titles etc.) And, lastly, some animosity to the fact that American culture (items, movies, tv, brands, etc) is overtaking others (I can sympathize to a degree there also.) Germans (and associated countries,) at least older ones, can take more "time" to become friends, especially close ones. And are used to more formality. It is also VERY important in general that education there is "harder" (to get in due to quotas, being "free", or not being free, how the education systems steer students, etc.) And many people don't attend University, but might still be successful in business etc. (Anyone with cash, or a loan, can get a degree in whatever crap here, with work, but there they only "need" a few Anthropologists in, say, Denmark. So if you get a degree in that you were selected and using the title has meaning. Whereas here any kid, with money or a loan, can be a Anthropology major. (They, at least used too, make degree progams based on utility for the society and need.)

Every country is different with regard to context, social decorum, etc. And individuals are different. And setting is important (are you some kind of consultant? A new boss? An investor? A person at a company that bought out the European company? A customer? etc. Can be treated very differently depending. Natural fear for their job, jealous if an ex-pat (higher paid, etc), and so on. Most of it is understandable and I wouldn't want a world where everyone acts the same.

ps: America, fuck yeah! USA! USA! USA!

[paladin1991]

I'm back in the USA after living in a third-world country for most of this year.  I certainly got an appreciation for some things I took for granted in the USA.  I think it is an experience everyone should have, and you can't know it from being in a tourist bubble.  You have to LIVE outside the USA, not just visit, to truly appreciate the differences.

The appreciation factor goes way up, IMO, when you spend time in a foreign country, living in a hole, a trench, a bunker, and ppl are trying to scatter your shit across the landscape.  Coming home to The Peoples Republic of California while imperfect is much better than those places that I've been to.

DPS, where were you?  School or work?

[paladin1991]

There's no evidence to support that assertion.

We fought England twice.  And won.  We ended 2 world wars and a cold war.  Sorry about the 'misunderstanding' for the first two.  You're welcome for the last 3.

[paladin1991]

Yeah, yeah, someone else made Hernan Cortez's armor when he conquered Mexico. No one cares about his armorer Pud, they only care about Cortez. And the fact is, the US went to the moon, a profound contribution to humanity that is as of yet unbeaten in the history of exploration even though it was done in 1969 -- one that we were very careful to steward very well. Did you know Pud that as per US law you own the images taken by NASA? Well, you do. All NASA images, moon and all, belong to every person on earth not just Americans. Do we stop your scientists from looking at the moon rocks? Nope.

Well, since 1969 what has Britain spearheaded? Beagle II and when it failed you went into hiding. Have some balls like the Japanese. Jesus, 3/4 of what they do in space fails but they keep slagging on. Anyway, enjoy the images of Pluto later this month. We sure the fuck wouldn't have them if had been up to Britain to take the initiative.

Dooooant!  *facepalm*

[paladin1991]

You really don't want to get into the 'who created the great inventions' argument. The US went to the moon because they repatriated Nazis post war. There would have been no space exploration without mainly non American inventions. Stainless steel was invented about a mile from where I work.

Present day exploration is multi national. Not exclusively American. Certainly not the scientists and engineers.

there, there, meine schatz.  You are sounding absolutely petulant.

[paladin1991]

As a non-American, hopefully I can shed some light on that.  As a non-American, I was always given the impressions that Americans only learn about Americans and only acknowledge American accomplishments.  I can say from reading this board that most of you here have broader international knowledge than I, but this has been a basic truth I was brought up with.  And it's pretty offensive if its true, so it becomes the obligation of the non-American to teach Americans about the world beyond their borders.  For instance, I was taught that the only scientists and inventors Americans ever pay any heed are people like Ben Franklin, Thomas Edison, and those such as Tesla or Einstein or Bell who adopted America as their own country (actually, we Canadians take credit for Bell too).  But when I think of the great scientific and engineering accomplishments of history, those guys (except Einstein) don't even make my short list.  I think of names like Copernicus, Galileo, Newton, Watt, James Maxwell, Max Planck, and Marconi.  Anyway, if this board represents a random sample of American beliefs and knowledge I would have to humbly submit my ignorance and adjust my beliefs.

Shit, bro.  I learned about those cats in 4th grade.  But then I was instructed by Jesuits.  We used to have a little ditty for most of those names, though all I can remember is, "Marconi invented radio, not macaroni!"

[DigitalPigSnuggler]

We fought England twice.  And won. 

Not exactly.  We won the first one by not losing (tip of the hat to Washington's brilliant insight that this was all that was needed to prevail). 

The second time around, we got skunked.  Britain burned Washington DC and had us thoroughly thrashed, but didn't close the deal because they were busy with Napoleon at the time, and decided the best strategy was to call it a draw at the peace talks.  The biggest "victory" the USA had in that war took place a few weeks after it officially ended, in the Battle of New Orleans.

[paladin1991]

What I think is noteworthy is that all the discoveries and all the inventions are for the betterment of all mankind (yes, I'm a sexist). That the US was the first and only country to put people on the moon (tearfully, almost 50 years ago) does not lessen other people in other countries. It is a shame that the dialogue is evolving into what country is better. Most of us have enough ethnocentrism to believe our country is best.

I am always embarrassed by these arguments. Even though the US has been first in space exploration, by most standards, those of us here can only claim to have paid taxes to support those endeavors. My uncle Sonny, was part of the team that developed the X-15,  my only claim is he helped me build three dirt tunnels for my model race car track.

You are right, Onan. It is a shame.  If it's gonna come to that, we should just whip out or dicks, do a function check and measure.   And dammit, I don't care if it does function as a fucking tripod for you, it's girth that fucking matters.  Ask any chick.

[DigitalPigSnuggler]

it's girth that fucking matters.  Ask any chick.

I'll vouch for that!

[paladin1991]

Jeeeze you stereotype yourself with the implied 'you hate America' crap. I'm not anti American. It's ludicrous to self proclaim your place of birth as the 'greatest'. Just as it carries little credibility to self praise on a personal level. But it's good you didn't read the post where I mentioned great American individuals.

You didn't even mention my name. 

[paladin1991]

It's really just a British thing. The mainland Europeans aren't so bad to varying degrees other than the French who hate everyone equally no matter the nationality. Italians, Poles, Spaniards, Greeks, even the Germans aren't too bad. Even Denmark, where being a prick is a national pass time isn't so bad once you understand why they are the way they are. Stay the hell away from Sweden though. Those fuckers have an anti-American superiority complex that makes Britain look like a walk in the park.

And how, fucking Swedes.  Fired me fm my gig with the Swedish Bikini Team.  Ran me off because some their bikini bottoms turned up 'missing.'  I would have given them back when I was done with them, no shit.  Those bikini bottoms made a great soup base.  And they act offended like I'm some sort of degenerate asshole.

[SciFiAuthor]

And how, fucking Swedes.  Fired me fm my gig with the Swedish Bikini Team.  Ran me off because some their bikini bottoms turned up 'missing.'  I would have given them back when I was done with them, no shit.  Those bikini bottoms made a great soup base.  And they act offended like I'm some sort of degenerate asshole.

Tell me about it. I go into Stockholm airport right and there's a hot blond at the desk and you know, Swedish women are known to put out and frolic naked in meadows and shit. So, not wanting to complicate matters and not being Swedish and totally disinterested in learning Swedish I figured that the shorter my sentences in English the better, so I simply looked at my crotch and then her and said "Well, it's not going to suck itself" and suddenly I was on the Swedish national shit list for the whole time I was there. Geez, what a retarded country.

[paladin1991]

Tell me about it. I go into Stockholm airport right and there's a hot blond at the desk and you know, Swedish women are known to put out and frolic naked in meadows and shit. So, not wanting to complicate matters and not being Swedish I figured that the shorter my sentences in English the better, so I simply looked at my crotch and then her and said "Well, it's not going to suck itself" and suddenly I was on the Swedish national shit list for the whole time I was there. Geez, what a retarded country.

You.
https://youtu.be/QUzvs6gdrbo

[SciFiAuthor]

You.
https://youtu.be/QUzvs6gdrbo

Pfft, I was quite the ladies man in Britain and all it took was braces as a kid and regular dentist visits.

[albrecht]

And how, fucking Swedes.  Fired me fm my gig with the Swedish Bikini Team.  Ran me off because some their bikini bottoms turned up 'missing.'  I would have given them back when I was done with them, no shit.  Those bikini bottoms made a great soup base.  And they act offended like I'm some sort of degenerate asshole.

One my first rants against political correctness was the Swedish Bikini Team "controversy." My current issue is that the only OM on the shelves, at my grocer at least, is non-alcoholic Old Milwaukee! Now, it never was a good beer. But had great marketing and price-point. A sixer of tallboys bought with a some worms for some quick fishing (plus never knowing when the ladies would parachute down!) Nice times. But it ASTOUNDS me that the only OM in my market is non-beer version. (Unless that is the theory to get the drunks off beer. You get the same metallic taste and swill and reminds them not to drink.) 

Happy 4th of July! Spent all weekend boating around, fishing, setting off fireworks, camping, bbq, drinking, kayaking,  bonfires, and watching others firework displays. In various orders of magnitude. I noticed a non-Norry weekend and a non-Obama/politics long weekend was a nice break. Though who knows what Obama was up to while we were having fun. Jade Helm soon here (haha) and did get a visit drive-by from the Police (is that what is called when they're in a boat(?) by but they were good old boys, local PD, and no problems. 2am fishing with music and fire still going. No harassment or anything. Just shot the breeze with them. They tied up til the ramp was clear across the lake (very crowded etc.) We still kept drinking (they declined) and kept fishing, they never did license checks, harass, etc. Nobody was shot. Cops are so bad.....bs.

[Yorkshire pud]

You didn't even mention my name.

You came under great writer, artist, thinker and musician. I didn't want to embarrass you by naming you, Xavier.. ooops sorry.