I Hate Liberals and Democrat Voters

[Mind Flayer Monk]

I don't understand the supposed complaint of those who think Amazon is doing something improper by "avoiding taxes", as if there is some duty for a business to structure their actions so as to implicate a taxable event. I particularly don't understand that attitude of "O woe is me! Amazon won't let me pay my appropriate taxes!". This smacks of hypocrisy.

The idea you can get away with "not paying tax" is built into the amazon pricing model.

Its actually fairly similar to black-market pricing schemes.

[PB the Deplorable]

This isn't how amazon avoids taxes. Amazon and others avoid taxes by creating a software system (or robotic picking systems, box sealers) and then saying the software system is doing 95% of the work, so 95% of the taxes are attributable to patent or trademark income.

This patent or trademark income is registered in a foreign country (sometimes called a patent box) and then you pay taxes at a reduced rate in the other county and claim all of that is not taxable in the US.

So if you look at an iphone-apple is saying of the $600 price tag, the revenue is actually $400 in patents held in other countries and $100 in the iphone trademark (also held in another country) and $50 in the apple trademark (held in another country) and yeah those last $50, you can tax us on that.

Yes, that is absolutely how the corporations like Apple avoid paying Income Taxes to the US and to other countries where they have subsidiaries selling products. 


My post was about how on-line retailers like Amazon avoid collecting Sales Taxes from their customers.  Since Pud mentioned Amazon specifically, and they are the ones most cited when it comes to non-collection of sales taxes on on-line purchases, I figured that must be what he meant.


I didn't realize Amazon was another deadbeat when it came to Income Tax shenagans.  Doesn't surprise me though.  Amazon chose Washington State as corporate HQ in part because that is one of the few states that has no Corporate Income Tax (they do have a Business and Occupation tax instead, where gross receipts are taxed instead of net income.  Washington State's B&O tax is less than half of 1%).

[stevesh]

I don't understand the supposed complaint of those who think Amazon is doing something improper by "avoiding taxes", as if there is some duty for a business to structure their actions so as to implicate a taxable event. I particularly don't understand that attitude of "O woe is me! Amazon won't let me pay my appropriate taxes!". This smacks of hypocrisy.

And I don't understand the constant bleating by brick and mortar store owners about the 'advantage' Amazon has over them by not charging sales tax. Your customers come to you, Grandpa. Amazon has to ship products to their customers, and despite the fact that they (and you) refer to it as 'free shipping', UPS and Fedex still want to be paid. The shipping costs are built in to Amazon's pricing, even if it isn't broken out as a separate line item on the invoice, and often amount to more than what the 6% sales tax would be in my state. I think the playing field is pretty level.

On a philisophical note, would it be the end of the world if we had one tiny aspect of our lives that isn't regulated, taxed and controlled by bureaucrats ? As Sardondi said, not every human transaction should be required to generate revenue for some government.

[PB the Deplorable]

... On a philisophical note, would it be the end of the world if we had one tiny aspect of our lives that isn't regulated, taxed and controlled by bureaucrats ? As Sardondi said, not every human transaction should be required to generate revenue for some government.

Some idiot company is developing boxes to go in people cars to monitor where we go.  States are already lining up to use them to tax people based on mileage. 

[Mind Flayer Monk]

My post was about how on-line retailers like Amazon avoid collecting Sales Taxes from their customers.  Since Pud mentioned Amazon specifically, and they are the ones most cited when it comes to non-collection of sales taxes on on-line purchases, I figured that must be what he meant.

I understand, I was thinking something different but I see what you mean now.

On a philisophical note, would it be the end of the world if we had one tiny aspect of our lives that isn't regulated, taxed and controlled by bureaucrats ? As Sardondi said, not every human transaction should be required to generate revenue for some government.

[Sardondi]

Some idiot company is developing boxes to go in people cars to monitor where we go.  States are already lining up to use them to tax people based on mileage.

Very soon they will be a standard part of every vehicle, like headlights which cannot be turned off or seatbelts which cannot not be worn. Very soon after that our political class will pass a law making it illegal to disable the car-bugging device, much as it is already illegal to modify your gas tank cap to accept leaded gasoline hoses. It has finally come to pass that we live and walk "free" only insofar as it pleases our master The State. Step outta line, The Man come and take you away.

[Quick Karl]

Very soon they will be a standard part of every vehicle, like headlights which cannot be turned off or seatbelts which cannot not be worn. Very soon after that our political class will pass a law making it illegal to disable the car-bugging device, much as it is already illegal to modify your gas tank cap to accept leaded gasoline hoses. It has finally come to pass that we live and walk "free" only insofar as it pleases our master The State. Step outta line, The Man come and take you away.

Nineteen Eighty-Four, a dystopian novel by George Orwell published in 1949. The Oceanian province of Airstrip One (formerly known as Great Britain) is a world of perpetual war, omnipresent government surveillance, and public mind control, dictated by a political system euphemistically named English Socialism (Ingsoc) under the control of a privileged Inner Party elite that persecutes all individualism and independent thinking as thoughtcrimes. Their tyranny is headed by Big Brother, the quasi-divine Party leader who enjoys an intense cult of personality, but who may not even exist. Big Brother and the Party justify their rule in the name of a supposed greater good. The protagonist of the novel, Winston Smith, is a member of the Outer Party who works for the Ministry of Truth (Minitrue), which is responsible for propaganda and historical revisionism. His job is to re-write past newspaper articles so that the historical record always supports the current party line. Smith is a diligent and skillful worker, but he secretly hates the Party and dreams of rebellion against Big Brother. http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Nineteen_Eighty-Four

WAR IS PEACE
FREEDOM IS SLAVERY
IGNORANCE IS STRENGTH.
Orwell, George (2003-06-01). Animal Farm and 1984 (p. 91). Houghton Mifflin Harcourt. Kindle Edition.

Amazing how insightful the guy was...

[ItsOver]

...the quasi-divine Party leader who enjoys an intense cult of personality, but who may not even exist. Big Brother and the Party justify their rule in the name of a supposed greater good....

That sounds vaguely familiar.  Although, I think he exists, he just claims not to know what's going on.

[Quick Karl]

That sounds vaguely familiar.  Although, I think he exists, he just claims not to know what's going on.

I haven't read it since I don't know when but I started reading it again after reading Sardondi's last post - truly amazing bit of work! Also amazing is that it, and Animal Farm, were, and still are, banned in China...

Welcome to the future!

[Ben Shockley]

About once a year, ol' MV pops out with a post that makes me wonder who's posting under his sig.
Under the philosophy of Positive Reinforcement, I give praise where it's due.

it's only the best healthcare system in the world if you can afford access to it.

Damn right.   All that "best in the world" stuff is most-loudly touted by highly-paid right-wing shills who have no problem (with their staffs') arranging for it and paying for it, and just don't understand how anyone could possibly have any problems.
You know: like Romney who told college students that they could solve their tuition woes (re: student loan interest rates, etc.) by simply asking their parents for a loan!  Everyone's parents have the money, right?   Everyone has parents, right?   But in fairness: ol' Mittsy ain't entirely unsympathetic nor clueless.  Queen Anne In Waiting herself told us how college was hard for Mitt, too -- he had to cash in some stocks to pay his way, bless his heart!!   A true man of the people, that ~

  having said that, obama care is a fucking disaster.

Let's assume that your crystal ball is working at 100% efficiency and you are correctly predicting 1 or 2 or 5 years down the road.  How much of that disaster-ness do you now, and will you, attribute to Republicans at every level having fought it every step?

It's odd, yet totally in character for Republicans, that as any glitches or possible problems turn up, Republicans act like:
1) each bump is necessarily an ANNIHILATIVE EVENT, destined to kill or destroy something -- Obama's presidency, millions of Americans and/or their jobs, something, anything;  AND / BUT
2) that their obsessively obstructionist hands are totally clean in the matter.
When, before now, have any of these craven Republican Congresspeople who are so thrilled to HOLD HEARINGS cared a damn about any of their constituents who "lost their insurance coverage?"  Answer: NEVER  (especially if any previous such "losses of coverage" were also demonstrably due [as these allegedly ObamaCare-related ones are] to the insured constituents' inability to read and comprehend routine- and routinely-usurious changes in policies).

You'd think that as they perceived their obstructionist work coming to fruition, Republicans would proudly trumpet their accomplishments:  "Goddamn right we're killing this program!  See how powerful we are?!   THIS we have wrought out of our sublimated perverted sexual energies!"
Alternatively --if one is stupid enough to believe that any elected Republican ran with "the public good" at heart-- Republicans might be concerned that an important government program might not work well to serve it's intended clients; and since Republicans are notably and consistently unwilling and/or incapable of producing an alternative program to serve the same purposes, they might work earnestly to improve the only game in town -- namely, "ObamaCare."
But they aren't.   Sort of makes you doubt whether the Republicans really care much about Americans who are underserved by health care.   Don't it?

  single payer is the solution.

Also totally correct.
But MV, brother, you're gonna have some tall 'splainin to do at the next meeting of the Church of Limbaugh, Missouri Synod.    I had been led to believe that your general sociopolitical worldview was primarily shaped by those Mon-thru-Fri daily 11A-2P lectures, and it surely hasn't slipped your attention that Daddy Rush would strongly disagree regarding "single payer!"
As I understand about Limbaugh, he would argue -- and it's certainly the de facto official position of the modern Republican party -- that every aspect of human existence should enrich some private businessperson.   In fact, that philosophy must by definition become stronger the farther you claim to reside over toward Libertarianism, as I thought you claimed, MV.

It is dogma to a good Republican, and particularly a good Libertarian, that if you, or your granny, or your wife, or your kid, gets deathly ill, then by god that disease or injury is a free-flowing slop trough that any and every capitalist who can dip a snout into it ought to --hell, has a right and a duty to-- make a profit from!    If "the state" is to be allowed any power at all, according to the Republican and Libertarian, it is to defend that capitalist right to make that profit!
How do you square that with your (newfound?) "single payer" sentiment?

Some sarcastic asshole --probably a Reaganite in the '80s-- once mused something to the effect that "a conservative is just a liberal who's been mugged."   In contrast, one could suggest that "a liberal is made when some shit-talking Ayn-Randian punk finds out that he really CAN'T build it."  Or more to the point, "...when some shit-talking Ayn-Randian punk has his ass saved by someone (or better yet, a collectivity of someones) that he earlier wouldn't have lifted a finger for."
Or just plain old  "...when some shit-talking Ayn-Randian punk's karma runs over his dogma."

So what happened to bring YOU around, dude?
Whatever it was:  I welcome that little sliver of your shoe sole that's edging over to this side of "the line."

[stevesh]

Welcome back Ben, but NowhereInTime took your seat while you were gone, and one of you guys is plenty.

[Ben Shockley]

Welcome back Ben, but NowhereInTime took your seat while you were gone, and one of you guys is plenty.

Hey, West Of The Rockies -- that didn't take long, did it?

Nice try at "divide and conquer," stevesh, but us faggoty libs aren't compelled toward cutthroat zero-sum competition, nor do we occupy Seats.   We cooperate and form coalitions and alliances to beat back nasty threats.
--- in fact: how do you know I've been "gone?"  How do you know I haven't been engineering something behind the scenes?

What you wanted to say was "one of you vocal, in-our-face libs fights us to a standstill; two could potentially rub our faces in it 24/7."   Don't worry though, Steve~  this cooler weather is drying my skin out, and I don't want to do all the extra hand-washing necessary after lengthy involvement with the filth posted/-ing in here.   I won't be around much.

Still --contrary to what you might wish, stevie--  there is officially no site quota / limit on Truthtelling Libs.   Last I heard (and it's been a while), MV assured me  <harumph, harumph>  that this is officially NOT a "right-wing forum."  Therefore --hold onto your seat, Marine -- HUNDREDS could potentially flood in here.
(To do what, I'm not sure -- maybe to go on a "canned hunt" of right-wingers, too rigid and atrophied to get away or adequately defend themselves.   You know: like Dick Cheney shoots caged fat birds for some fleeting semblance of a sexual thrill ~~)

[Quick Karl]

...blather, blather, blather, name calling, condescending name calling, more name calling, blather, blather, if you disagree with me you're a hillbilly...

What was worst of all was that by means of such organizations as the Spies they were systematically turned into ungovernable little savages, and yet this produced in them no tendency whatever to rebel against the discipline of the Party. On the contrary, they adored the Party and everything connected with it. The songs, the processions, the banners, the hiking, the drilling with dummy rifles, the yelling of slogans, the worship of Big Brotherâ€" it was all a sort of glorious game to them. All their ferocity was turned outwards, against the enemies of the State, against foreigners, traitors, saboteurs, thought-criminals. It was almost normal for people over thirty to be frightened of their own children. And with good reason, for hardly a week passed in which the Times did not carry a paragraph describing how some eavesdropping little sneakâ€"“ child hero” was the phrase generally usedâ€" had overheard some compromising remark and denounced his parents to the Thought Police.

Orwell, George (2003-06-01). Animal Farm and 1984 (p. 110). Houghton Mifflin Harcourt. Kindle Edition.

[onan]

All their ferocity was turned outwards, against the enemies of the State, against foreigners, traitors, saboteurs, thought-criminals.

Orwell, George (2003-06-01). Animal Farm and 1984 (p. 110). Houghton Mifflin Harcourt. Kindle Edition.

That really does encompass the Tea Party.

[Quick Karl]

That really does encompass the Tea Party.

I'm rubber, you're glue, and my bicycle is better than yours.

[onan]

I'm rubber, you're glue, and my bicycle is better than yours.

hahaha probably so sir.

[Quick Karl]

hahaha probably so sir.

Have you ever read 1984?

[onan]

Have you ever read 1984?

nope

[Quick Karl]

nope

As literary political fiction and dystopian science-fiction, Nineteen Eighty-Four is a classic novel in content, plot, and style. Many of its terms and concepts, such as Big Brother, doublethink, thoughtcrime, Newspeak, Room 101, Telescreen, 2 + 2 = 5, and memory hole, have entered everyday use since its publication in 1949. Moreover, Nineteen Eighty-Four popularized the adjective Orwellian, which describes official deception, secret surveillance, and manipulation of the past by a totalitarian or authoritarian state. In 2005, the novel was chosen by TIME magazine as one of the 100 best English-language novels from 1923 to 2005. It was awarded a place on both lists of Modern Library 100 Best Novels, reaching number 13 on the editor's list, and 6 on the reader's list. In 2003, the novel was listed at number 8 on the BBC's survey The Big Read.  http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Nineteen_Eighty-Four

Russia has had a history of banning books. Leo Tolstoy's The Kingdom of God is Within You was banned in Russia for being anti-establishment. William Gray's Dick and Jane was banned in Soviet Russia because it was considered Pro-American. Other books which Russia has banned include Doctor Zhivago by Boris Pasternak (Banned in the USSR until 1988), The Gulag Archipelago by Aleksandr Solzhenitsyn (ban lifted in 2009 by the Education Ministry of Russia and is now included in educational curriculums for high school students), 1984 by George Orwell (banned in the Soviet Union in 1950, under consideration of banning by the USA and UK in the early 1960s, legalized by the USSR in 1990 after it was edited), and One Day in the Life of Ivan Denisovich by Aleksandr Solzhenityn (banned from publication in 1964). http://voices.yahoo.com/russia-bans-scientology-books-as-extremism-5961142.html

I read One Day in the life of Ivan Denisovich, and actually went on a class trip to Radio City in Manhattan to watch the movie - probably 7th or 8th grade.

The fact that 1984 was banned makes it worth reading, imho.

[PB the Deplorable]

... Truthtelling Libs...

What truths are those?

We're going to continue to let crime run rampant?  We're going to keep running businesses out of cities we control with high taxes and dumb regulations?  We've destroyed our big cities?  Our unions control the schools and we're never going to improve them?  There is no limit to the amount of tax dollars we want?  We're going to keep dreaming up new handout programs forever?  We don't care how big the deficit or national debt is?  We hate the cops and especially the military?  As soon as we get into office, self dealing is at the top of our list and party building is second? 

We like mobs like Occupy?  We know best how to run everyone else's life and business?  We don't worry about lying because we know Big Media will cover for us?  We'll steal elections when we get the chance?  We're going to do our best to make life miserable for anyone that earns 'too much', has a small business, uses energy, or drives a car?  We're not going to use tax dollars wisely and we don't mind wasting them?  We're going to call everyone who doesn't agree with us names and try to smear them because we can't win a fair debate?  There is no trick so low we won't use it to get our way or to win an election?  We don't understand economics?  We are too incompetent to handle foreign affairs?  We are easily suckered by people like Casto, Stalin, Mao, and Pol Pot?  We don't understand how the world works?  We miss the Soviet Union, they really seemed like they were on the right track?  We're more interested in using tax dollars to buy votes and staff up our bureaucratic empires than address issues and solve problems? 

We don't understand the history of the country or what made our country a great nation?  We think the Constitution is old and out of date, and that it holds us back from all the great things we want to do?  We'll never take no for an answer - to get what we want we'll go from the legislature to the governors and president to the bureaucracy, then go judge shopping, if that doesn't work we'll start all over again with the legislatures?  We'll never give up trying to take your guns - but we're going slow because we've lost too many elections over this?  Our favorite administration was Jimmy Carter's and our least favorite was Ronald Reagan's?

These are some of the Liberal truths I can think of off the top of my head.  Were they the ones you were thinking of?  There is some overlap but the Leftist truths are much worse. 

[PB the Deplorable]

nope

I'm kind of surprised, that's been a High School staple for decades.

[Quick Karl]

I'm kind of surprised, that's been a High School staple for decades.

Nah, they changed that in the late 70's when Big Brother took over America's system of dis-education, effectively banning it along with hate-speech and heterosexuality! 

WAR IS PEACE
FREEDOM IS SLAVERY
IGNORANCE IS STRENGTH.
Orwell, George (2003-06-01). Animal Farm and 1984 (p. 91). Houghton Mifflin Harcourt. Kindle Edition.

[Quick Karl]

An urban civilization, the Garamantes, arose around 500 BC in the heart of the Sahara, in a valley that is now called the Wadi al-Ajal in Fezzan, Libya. The Garamantes achieved this development by digging tunnels far into the mountains flanking the valley to tap fossil water and bring it to their fields. The Garamantes grew populous and strong, conquering their neighbors and capturing many slaves (which were put to work extending the tunnels). The ancient Greeks and the Romans knew of the Garamantes and regarded them as uncivilized nomads. However, they traded with the Garamantes, and a Roman bath has been found in the Garamantes capital of Garama. Archaeologists have found eight major towns and many other important settlements in the Garamantes territory. The Garamantes civilization eventually collapsed after they had depleted available water in the aquifers and could no longer sustain the effort to extend the tunnels further into the mountains.

The Berber people occupied (and still occupy) much of the Sahara. The Garamantes Berbers built a prosperous empire in the heart of the desert. The Tuareg nomads continue, to the present day, to inhabit and move across wide Sahara surfaces.

Arab Islamic expansion

The Byzantine Empire ruled the northern shores of the Sahara from the 5th to the 7th century. When the Islamic conquest of North Africa began in the mid 7th to early 8th centuries, an Arabic and Islamic influence expanded rapidly on the Sahara. By the end of 641 all of Egypt was in Arab hands. The trade across the desert intensified. The kingdoms of the Sahel, especially the Ghana Empire and the Mali Empire, grew rich and powerful exporting gold and salt to North Africa. The emirates along the Mediterranean Sea sent manufactured goods and horses south . From the Sahara itself, salt was exported. This process turned the scattered oasis communities into trading centers and brought them under the control of the empires on the edge of the desert. A significant slave trade crossed the desert. It has been estimated that from the 10th to the 19th century some 6,000 to 7,000 slaves were transported north each year.

The Tuareg once controlled the central Sahara desert and its trade. This trade through Sahara persisted for several centuries until the development in Europe of the caravel allowed ships, first from Portugal and soon from all of Western Europe, to sail around the desert and gather the resources from the source in Guinea. The Sahara was rapidly marginalized.

Ottoman Turkish era

From 16th century the northern fringe of the Sahara, such as coastal regencies in present day Algeria and Tunisia, as well as some parts of present-day Libya, together with the semi-autonomous kingdom of Egypt, were occupied by the Ottoman Empire. From 1517 Egypt was a valued part of the Ottoman Empire, ownership of which provided the Ottomans with control over the Nile Valley, the east Mediterranean and North Africa. The benefit of the Ottoman Empire was the freedom of movement for citizens and goods. Trade exploited the Ottoman land routes to handle the spice, gold and silk from the East, manufactures from Europe and the slave and gold traffic from Africa. Arabic continued as the local language and Islamic culture was much reinforced. The Sahel and southern Sahara regions were home to several independent states or home to roaming Tuareg clans.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Sahara

And here I thought it was only Old White former English Subjects that invented the African slave trade and depleted natural resources so they could create the American Republic, just to get rich...

WAR IS PEACE
FREEDOM IS SLAVERY
IGNORANCE IS STRENGTH.
Orwell, George (2003-06-01). Animal Farm and 1984 (p. 91). Houghton Mifflin Harcourt. Kindle Edition.

[Quick Karl]

Gee now that Obamacare is a disaster the random shootings have suddenly started again...

LAX, Paramus NJ - I wonder what will be next...

[toastycoasty]

I hate Liberals and Democrat voters as well.  Come to think of it, I despise Conservatives and Republican voters just as much (and for good measure I really hate those who are undecided or do not vote.)

Just everyone, it's better to hate everyone if that's the case!

I'm definitely mostly a Liberal/Democrat-leaning person, although disillusioned with all parties and politics right now. I try to keep abreast of right wing news/progress, and the hate you lot have for the left is VICIOUS. I almost can't respect the indiscriminate hate that gets thrown all around by you people.

[Quick Karl]

Just everyone, it's better to hate everyone if that's the case!

I'm definitely mostly a Liberal/Democrat-leaning person, although disillusioned with all parties and politics right now. I try to keep abreast of right wing news/progress, and the hate you lot have for the left is VICIOUS. I almost can't respect the indiscriminate hate that gets thrown all around by you people.

That is almost too funny to respond to...

[jblank]

I try to keep abreast of right wing news/progress, and the hate you lot have for the left is VICIOUS. I almost can't respect the indiscriminate hate that gets thrown all around by you people.

I almost threw up reading that. Have you never been to the Huffington Post's comment on articles sections? Never been to Democratic Underground? You wanna see real hate for the opposition? Take a trip to those two websites and look for comments.

I will say this, I wouldn't mind the left nearly as much if they would stop trying to tear down every freedom this nation was built on. If they would respect the fact that I have a right to keep and bear arms, a right to be a person that believes in the Christian God, a right to keep as much of what I earn as possible, and not take it from me to give it to some welfare "baby mama", sitting in her housing that I pay for, wearing her pajama pants 24 hours a day, smoking her cigarettes that I paid for, popping our child after child, born out of wedlock, I wouldn't mind them a bit.

[Yorkshire pud]

I almost threw up reading that. Have you never been to the Huffington Post's comment on articles sections? Never been to Democratic Underground? You wanna see real hate for the opposition? Take a trip to those two websites and look for comments.

I will say this, I wouldn't mind the left nearly as much if they would stop trying to tear down every freedom this nation was built on. If they would respect the fact that I have a right to keep and bear arms, a right to be a person that believes in the Christian God, a right to keep as much of what I earn as possible, and not take it from me to give it to some welfare "baby mama", sitting in her housing that I pay for, wearing her pajama pants 24 hours a day, smoking her cigarettes that I paid for, popping our child after child, born out of wedlock, I wouldn't mind them a bit.

Yeah; cos Jesus believed in bearing arms too...and he also resented those worse off than him...oh and he also cast Mary Magdalene aside because she didn't conform... In fact he was an all round bad ass..

Damn!!! Shit, hang on... I think that's wrong..

[jblank]

 

Huh? What does religion have to do with a freedom guaranteed to me under our Constitution? You can be religious and be a gun owner, there isn't anything that is in conflict there. Also, because I don't want my money being given away to the lazy, that doesn't mean I don't help people through charitable organizations.

You're making a lot of incorrect assumptions and looking quite bad in doing it.

[Yorkshire pud]

Huh? What does religion have to do with a freedom guaranteed to me under our Constitution? You can be religious and be a gun owner, there isn't anything that is in conflict there. Also, because I don't want my money being given away to the lazy, that doesn't mean I don't help people through charitable organizations.

You're making a lot of incorrect assumptions and looking quite bad in doing it.

Oh I was just amused at this:

a person that believes in the Christian God,

And wondered which bits can be cherry picked to make you (or anyone of the same ilk) look like a paragon of society, yet ignore/not take seriously the rest that doesn't suit that status. Just curious.
Incidentally, what have I assumed; incorrectly or otherwise?