Delta Air Says ObamaCare Will Cost Them $100 MILLION Next Year Alone

[PB the Deplorable]

And thanks for your irrational response.  This is why conservatives are losing ground in this country.  You have no perspective and are completely immersed in your own "self-interest".
The best part of this is that Obamacare, far from the single payer system liberals want, is about personal responsibility and open competition to offer the best health plan at the best price. 
Meanwhile you go on hating your fellow human beings

Let me help you out.  The reason people support the Ds in the first place is mostly due to an astonishing lack of understanding of so many things - certainly economics in general and how businesses work,  And to get handouts.

As for your examples of passenger flights and pizzas.  As you know - actually apparently you don't - the airlines have been struggling for decades.  So many have gone bankrupt or have been absorbed.  They struggle to fill every flight for the most amount they can in the hopes of turning some level of profit.  They have certain routes and specific flights that are highly profitable, but mostly it's highly competitive and they are lucky to just fill seats and break even.  Travel agencies and their commissions are mostly gone.  When people are buying flights online, even $1 can make the difference between this flight or that one or not going at all.  They've turned to charging for things that used to be free.

And you think just one of the companies involved has an extra $100 million to waste?


You might want to look into how many individual passengers there are and how much profit is made by the industry as a whole each year.  Are they even making $1 per passenger in profit?  Do they cumulatively make a profit every year?  Do you even care, or do you just want them to pony up a handout for you?

And what about those profits?  Does every dollar in corporate profits end up as cash in a bank somewhere?  No.  For sure all taxes are paid in cash.  The ObamaCare tax will just piggyback on top of fuel tax, payroll tax, state and federal income tax, tax on inventory and equipment, sales tax on everything purchased and taxes on the real estate the airlines use, and all the rest. 

So if there is any profit after taxes and expenses are paid, much of those profits are used to buy inventory, equipment, expand facilities - all things that are not current write offs.  This is where the profits go - not as dollar bills stashed in banks somewhere.  The average company doesn't have $100m sitting around collecting dust - they would have to buy less inventory and equipment and hire fewer new employees to pay it.

So a business in this situation looks at it and says 'we can't afford healthcare at the current level AND another $100 million ObamaCare tax.  So they either don't hire the people they had planned to, or lay off some they already have, or reduce hours so people are no longer eligible for insurance, or drop spouses and kids from coverage, or buy cheaper policies with less coverage, or drop it all together. 

That's the reality.  That's what a Lib is incapable of understanding - that people will make different decisions when faced with new rules.

"Oh, just charge every passenger a $1 more, problem solved".  Sorry, that is grade school level understanding and it just doesn't work that way, no matter how much you want it to. 

Just because the Leftist publications you read enjoy trashing 'capitalists', and insist they are all gouging you, and feed you these easy answers, doesn't make it so.



How about the extra 15c per pizza.  The arguments are all about the same.  How many pizza places are there, and how competitive is it for each customer.  How much profit do you think is in each pizza after rent, utilities, salaries, ingredients, all the same taxes listed above, and all the rest of the expenses a business incurs?  It may only be 15c, it may be less, it my be more.  I don't know.  I damn well guarantee that you don't know.  But you're happy to take another 15c for each one for ObamaCare Tax, regardless.  Because you're entitled to it.

And by the way, if it's Obama or some other Democrat saying it's 15c, I guarantee it ends up being many multiples of that.  They are famous for their inability to estimate the actual cost of anything.



But you don't care about any of this.  You just want to go out, yell and scream and wave signs with a bunch of other punks, attack the police, tear stuff up, be all mad about 'greedy' capitalists. 

The fact is, the people demanding someone else pay their way are the greedy ones.

[PB the Deplorable]

... The best part of this is that Obamacare, far from the single payer system liberals want, is about personal responsibility and open competition to offer the best health plan at the best price...

Yeah, sure it is.

Aren't you the same person that was saying last week jacking up taxes on energy and the whole cap and trade scheme was 'market based'? 

[PB the Deplorable]

And thanks for your irrational response.  This is why conservatives are losing ground in this country.  You have no perspective and are completely immersed in your own "self-interest".
The best part of this is that Obamacare, far from the single payer system liberals want, is about personal responsibility and open competition to offer the best health plan at the best price. 
Meanwhile you go on hating your fellow human beings

It's not about hating anyone, being irrational, not having perspective or being immersed in self interest.  However each of those items describe the Left quite precisely, so I can understand why they would occur to you so easily.

[NowhereInTime]

Yeah, sure it is.

Aren't you the same person that was saying last week jacking up taxes on energy and the whole cap and trade scheme was 'market based'?

As a matter of fact I am.  Then you went this never ending soliloquy about Adam Smith and "the invisible hand" that completely disregards pragmatic truth about business.
I'm in retail 20 years, I know how to generate sales and make money.  This store has been up average 5% sales and 6% GP since I started running it. What is it you do that makes you the be-all, end-all expert on how a business is run?  You talk like an academic.  I have to manage inventories, payrolls, and operating expenses to generate EBIT (let the accountants get DA).  You? You go on about half baked theories from Neurotics like Smith and Hume.

[Yorkshire pud]

As a matter of fact I am.  Then you went this never ending soliloquy about Adam Smith and "the invisible hand" that completely disregards pragmatic truth about business.
I'm in retail 20 years, I know how to generate sales and make money.  This store has been up average 5% sales and 6% GP since I started running it. What is it you do that makes you the be-all, end-all expert on how a business is run?  You talk like an academic.  I have to manage inventories, payrolls, and operating expenses to generate EBIT (let the accountants get DA).  You? You go on about half baked theories from Neurotics like Smith and Hume.

Yeah; but apart from that, what would you possibly know?  :  It's a left wing conspiracy.. Obviously

[NowhereInTime]

It's not about hating anyone, being irrational, not having perspective or being immersed in self interest.  However each of those items describe the Left quite precisely, so I can understand why they would occur to you so easily.

Really? A response about how a business "wastes" $100 million or, again, $1 per passenger, to give adequate health coverage to the people making the money (and you need to read the WSJ if you still think the airlines are "struggling" - their new flight plans, fee structures, and carrier alignments having them printing cash now) is as misanthropic a statement as I have heard.
As a businessman, I am excited about the increase in productivity and the reduction in sick time and coverage shortages that result in people not getting preventive care.
If you had an inkling about how much loss time is generated by people getting ill from preventable sickness and how much productivity is wasted by a work force getting ill from coworkers who otherwise should be cared for but cannot be then you would realize that this program is a boon to most of us in the business world.

[NowhereInTime]

From Paper Boy:
"How about the extra 15c per pizza.  The arguments are all about the same.  How many pizza places are there, and how competitive is it for each customer.  How much profit do you think is in each pizza after rent, utilities, salaries, ingredients, all the same taxes listed above, and all the rest of the expenses a business incurs?  It may only be 15c, it may be less, it my be more.  I don't know.  I damn well guarantee that you don't know.  But you're happy to take another 15c for each one for ObamaCare Tax, regardless.  Because you're entitled to it."

Again, PB, it was Schnatter himself that made the claim:


http://www.forbes.com/sites/calebmelby/2012/11/12/breaking-down-centi-millionaire-papa-john-schnatters-obamacare-math/

And if he loses out on that 15 cents, how can he offer me half price on Wednesdays for a Large BBQ bacon and chicken?  I am enjoying one right now.
You see, even if I disagree with his philosophy (and yours), I'm not going to hold it against him or the local franchisee. 
And don't go there with pizza, either my friend.  We invented the stuff here in New Haven and there are pizzerias every ten feet in CT and if they are halfway decent they do great business.

[Foodlion]

All I'm going to say is, in my neck of the woods, Everyone's going from full time to part time and It's not because the boss, GM, CEO, or stock share holder's are being greedy. It's because if they don't the whole company will go under due to "Obamacare"

This is not just my company, but I personaly know of 15 decent size companies within a 5 mile radius doing this, and these companies ranging from corporations to private businesses. But the point being, they all used to be full time and supplied decent health/dental care package.
Now they are having to adapt to this "Change" junk.

I wasn't aware there was a healthcare crises until the election.  : If It's not broken, then don't fix it.

[Yorkshire pud]

All I'm going to say is, in my neck of the woods, Everyone's going from full time to part time and It's not because the boss, GM, CEO, or stock share holder's are being greedy. It's because if they don't the whole company will go under due to "Obamacare"

This is not just my company, but I personaly know of 15 decent size companies within a 5 mile radius doing this, and these companies ranging from corporations to private businesses. But the point being, they all used to be full time and supplied decent health/dental care package.
Now they are having to adapt to this "Change" junk.

I wasn't aware there was a healthcare crises until the election.  : If It's not broken, then don't fix it.

Interesting; I live in the UK, so don't enjoy the arrangements you have in the USA where everyone is in the peak of health and able to have free at the point of need irrespective of financial status, access to elective surgery, oncology, contraception, midwifery, ENT, cardio vascular, physio therapy, haematology, obs and gynie, paediatrics, CT, MRI, X Ray scans, kidney, heart and lung transplants, dialysis, orthopaedics, ambulance and paramedic services, A&E....and lots of other stuff.*.

You have a deficit causing the closure of companies and the redundancy of workers, but that's been ongoing before 'Obama care' got in the mix. I would suggest it was very broken, you have a population that has sections dying of conditions simply because they can't afford to pay for it to be treated. Is that what it comes down to? Your 'worth' is based on the dollars you have? And let die those who can't afford it? Which is a great situation; right up until it's yourself, then it isn't so good.  Do you know that the world debt is at least five times more than there is money in circulation? So affordability is moot. Nothing any administration ever 'buys' will be bought with money, it's bought with more debt, it has been for years.

*Yes I do

[NowhereInTime]

All I'm going to say is, in my neck of the woods, Everyone's going from full time to part time and It's not because the boss, GM, CEO, or stock share holder's are being greedy. It's because if they don't the whole company will go under due to "Obamacare"

This is not just my company, but I personaly know of 15 decent size companies within a 5 mile radius doing this, and these companies ranging from corporations to private businesses. But the point being, they all used to be full time and supplied decent health/dental care package.
Now they are having to adapt to this "Change" junk.

I wasn't aware there was a healthcare crises until the election.  : If It's not broken, then don't fix it.

Yeah, it's broken:

http://abcnews.go.com/WNT/PrescriptionForChange/story?id=2563381

Not for nothing, but in retail they've been pushing out full timers for part timers at least going back to the 90's.  When Federated bought out Macy's they bought out all employees with more than 8 years service (paid them 1 week per year of service plus a flat bonus to leave) in 1995 thru 1997. Most of the senior people saw the handwriting on the wall and took the buyout.  Some were re-hired as new hires with no seniority and no benefits.  Many thought Saks, Filene's or Nordstrom would pick them up and wound up flat on their asses.
And yes this was due solely to greed.  CEO's are paid on share perfromance. Shareholders, especially institutionals, are always looking for strong quarterlies and reliable future guidance.  The best way to deliver that it is to minimize cost through labor depletions. 
Then we all sit around lamenting the good ol' days of decent customer service, especially when we can't find someone to help at the local Wal-Mart (who has 16 registers but one open).

[NowhereInTime]

*Yes I do

Awesome!

[PB the Deplorable]

As a matter of fact I am.  Then you went this never ending soliloquy about Adam Smith and "the invisible hand" that completely disregards pragmatic truth about business.
I'm in retail 20 years, I know how to generate sales and make money.  This store has been up average 5% sales and 6% GP since I started running it. What is it you do that makes you the be-all, end-all expert on how a business is run?  You talk like an academic.  I have to manage inventories, payrolls, and operating expenses to generate EBIT (let the accountants get DA).  You? You go on about half baked theories from Neurotics like Smith and Hume.

Nope, not an academic, never taught a class in my life. 

When you heard 'if you like you insurance, you can keep it', 'if you like your doctor, you can keep going to him or her', when we were told we were going to get all these extra benefits and add more people to the system and it would cost less, none of that gave you pause?  Government intrusion and promises of it all being cheaper sounded right to you?  When it was delayed until after the election, tht told you we'd all love it?, or when we were told we'd 'have to pass it to see what's in it', that made sense?  How about now, Obama dictatorially giving his cronies waivers, and pushing the worst parts of it out further, to you this means it's just a great piece of legislation? 

What about the reports of layoffs, shortened hours, new policies that aren't as good, kids and spouses being kicked off policies, coverage eliminated at some businesses?  What should Obama and the Ds tell those people?  Or that companies are not hiring due to the uncertainty of the costs of it?

This was all predicted and predictable.  It doesn't take a degree in Econ, or a lifetime of working to see this is a disaster unfolding.  But for a Leftist, somehow it's all seen as a Great Thing. 


Running a store I'm sure gives you a 'hands on' feel for you company, it's not easy and you sound like you are very good at it.  Anyway back to Adam Smith vs managing a business.  One is micro-economics (pertaining to a single company or industry), the other is macro-economics (pertaining to the economy as a whole).  They are quite different fields, an understanding of one does not automatically carryover to the other

As far as Adam Smith and the invisible hand being a crackpot theory, sorry, it describes things quite accurately.  You want a crackpot - and deadly - theory, read a little Marx.

[PB the Deplorable]

... Federated bought out Macy's ... Not for nothing, but in retail they've been pushing out full timers for part timers at least going back to the 90's...

You can always find examples of companies that couldn't compete and go bankrupt.  Those resources, including employees, get allocated elsewhere where they are more productive.  In economic terms it's called 'creative destruction'.

In this case, it's retail.  People are buying more and more on the internet and it's causing problems for a lot of stores - at first bookstores, DVD rentals, music stores, now people are even buying cars online.   Things change.  Home based internet sellers are thriving.  I propose decreeing things no longer be sold over the internet would be a lousy response.

Yes, in the short term it's unfortunate - for the shareholders, creditors, suppliers, employees, customers.  Everyone should be prepared, for example employees should always be networking and keeping their skills updated.  If they do that they should have easily been able to find jobs at other similar companies, or use their expertise to start their own online store.


The alternative is what a Leftist government would give us - stagnation.  No business could fail, but there would be little innovation or expansion either.  No jobs for people coming out of school, no growth, etc.  Like Europe the last several decades and the US now.

But it's easier to point to a handful of business failures and the people that work there, than to point out the businesses that were never opened and the people that were never hired based on a bad business environment created by government interference.

[NowhereInTime]

As far as Adam Smith and the invisible hand being a crackpot theory, sorry, it describes things quite accurately.  You want a crackpot - and deadly - theory, read a little Marx.

Oh, no, you're quite correct.  As a moral philosopher Smith spoke volumes:

“It is not very unreasonable that the rich should contribute to the public expense, not only in proportion to their revenue, but something more than in that proportion.”
― Adam Smith

“No society can surely be flourishing and happy of which by far the greater part of the numbers are poor and miserable. ”
― Adam Smith

“People of the same trade seldom meet together, even for merriment and diversion, but the conversation ends in a conspiracy against the public, or in some contrivance to raise prices.”
― Adam Smith, The Wealth of Nations: An Inquiry into the Nature & Causes of the Wealth of Nations

“The subjects of every state ought to contribute towards the support of the government, as nearly as possible, in proportion to their respective abilities.”
― Adam Smith, The Wealth of Nations: An Inquiry into the Nature & Causes of the Wealth of Nations

And this one, from Theory of Moral Sentiments best sums up Paper Boy's dismissive and contemptuous relationship to Barack Obama:

"There is not a negro from the coast of Africa (our favorite Kenyan, in this case) who does not, in this respect, possess a degree of magnanimity which the soul of his sordid master (our favorite conservative scourge, PB in this case) is too often scarce capable of conceiving. Fortune never exerted more cruelly her empire over mankind, than when she subjected those nations of heroes to the refuse of the jails of Europe, to wretches who possess the virtues neither of the countries which they come from, nor of those which they go to, and whose levity, brutality, and baseness, so justly expose them to the contempt of the vanquished. "

[PB the Deplorable]

... I'm in retail 20 years, I know how to generate sales and make money.  This store has been up average 5% sales and 6% GP since I started running it...

... As a businessman, I am excited about the increase in productivity and the reduction in sick time and coverage shortages that result in people not getting preventive care.

If you had an inkling about how much loss time is generated by people getting ill from preventable sickness and how much productivity is wasted by a work force getting ill from coworkers who otherwise should be cared for but cannot be then you would realize that this program is a boon to most of us in the business world.

... Oh.  $1 per passenger.  LET THE REDISTRIBUTION BEGIN!!

From your posts, I get the impression you are in top management - the very people you rail about as 'greedy' criminals.  I bet you make much more than the cashiers and people stocking shelves.  And think you deserve it and earned it.  Unlike the other people who worked their way to the top at other companies.

Do you get health insurance too while your people don't?   I ask because from your post it sounds like they don't get regular checkups or medicine and need to come to work sick.  I hope that's not the case, it would be so unfair  considering how much money comes though your store for that to be happening.

Here's a solution - just start charging more for each item you sell.  You know, anywhere from 15c to $1 per item depending on what it's going to take to pay everyone fairly and cover them with health insurance.  You can adjust the amount later if it's too high or too low.  I wonder why this hasn't occurred to you before. 

If you have the authority, just mark everything up tonight after hours.  If not, call HQ - I'm sure they would be delighted to hear your recommendation and be able to use your solution to solve this problem.  I mean why shove those costs onto the guy down the street making pizzas.   Or the airlines.  Or anyone else.  Just take care of it.  There is plenty of money right there where you work.




Back in 1993 when the Clintons came to town, Bill tasked Hilary with healthcare 'reform'.  She was told her plan would bankrupt businesses and destroy jobs through excessive health mandates, and employees will go from having no health insurance to having no health insurance and no jobs.

"I can't be responsible for every undercapitalized entrepreneur in America," Mrs. Clinton replied


I'm surprised she didn't add that they should all go get 6 figure income jobs (the equivalent of eating cake) instead.  The next chance the voters got - the 1994 off year elections - the Ds lost the House for the first time in 40 years.  And look, the Ds lost the House after ObamaCare was crammed down our throats this time as well.  Most people get it.

[NowhereInTime]

From your posts, I get the impression you are in top management - the very people you rail about as 'greedy' criminals.  I bet you make much more than the cashiers and people stocking shelves.  And think you deserve it and earned it.  Unlike the other people who worked their way to the top at other companies.

Do you get health insurance too while your people don't?   I ask because from your post it sounds like they don't get regular checkups or medicine and need to come to work sick.  I hope that's not the case, it would be so unfair  considering how much money comes though your store for that to be happening.

Here's a solution - just start charging more for each item you sell.  You know, anywhere from 15c to $1 per item depending on what it's going to take to pay everyone fairly and cover them with health insurance.  You can adjust the amount later if it's too high or too low.  I wonder why this hasn't occurred to you before. 

If you have the authority, just mark everything up tonight after hours.  If not, call HQ - I'm sure they would be delighted to hear your recommendation and be able to use your solution to solve this problem.  I mean why shove those costs onto the guy down the street making pizzas.   Or the airlines.  Or anyone else.  Just take care of it.  There is plenty of money right there where you work.




Back in 1993 when the Clintons came to town, Bill tasked Hilary with healthcare 'reform'.  She was told her plan would bankrupt businesses and destroy jobs through excessive health mandates, and employees will go from having no health insurance to having no health insurance and no jobs.

"I can't be responsible for every undercapitalized entrepreneur in America," Mrs. Clinton replied


I'm surprised she didn't add that they should all go get 6 figure income jobs (the equivalent of eating cake) instead.  The next chance the voters got - the 1994 off year elections - the Ds lost the House for the first time in 40 years.  And look, the Ds lost the House after ObamaCare was crammed down our throats this time as well.  Most people get it.

Not top management, store manager.  Yes, I get health insurance; pay $60 a week as a single guy and have a $5000.00 deductible.  (Yes, five thou.)
By the by, pushing the price envelope when and where possible is a small part of successful retail. I do raise prices on hot goods but the money is not mine to collect.  I respect my boss' property rights and the investment in time and money he put into founding this company.
I have 23 total people who report to me; 6 full timers (all salaried with benefits) and 17 part timers (all but 2 who are college kids on their parents' health insurance).
The part timers earn anywhere from $8.25 (min wage) to $10.00.  The transient nature of college students lends itself to substantial turnover. 
This company, unlike others for whom I've worked, offers no sick time and no sick pay.  CT passed legislation requiring companies with 50 people or more to offer two days sick time.  Oh, how the Chamber of Commerce howled.  Two days sick time.
You see, I get that in order to sustain a society we need to work.  I get that we don't all rise to the same level of productivity and therefore do not deserve the same reward.  What I don't get is this idea that somehow we live our lives in a vacuum, free of regard. I don't get how we all need to make way to let someone obtain as much wealth as possible without consequence or regard to their community.  When did this become a virtue?
It is immoral that individuals can rig it so that they can experience multi-million or billion dollar paydays (Bain Capital) while most struggle to find work above minimum wage.  It is immoral we let people suffer or go into hock because they get sick.  It is immoral that the wealthy always act like everyone is a burden to them.  Do they live in this society or not? It is immoral that the immediate response of the wealthy is always "why should I?"
Why the hell shouldn't you?

[Foodlion]

Interesting; I live in the UK, so don't enjoy the arrangements you have in the USA where everyone is in the peak of health and able to have free at the point of need irrespective of financial status, access to elective surgery, oncology, contraception, midwifery, ENT, cardio vascular, physio therapy, haematology, obs and gynie, paediatrics, CT, MRI, X Ray scans, kidney, heart and lung transplants, dialysis, orthopaedics, ambulance and paramedic services, A&E....and lots of other stuff.*.

You have a deficit causing the closure of companies and the redundancy of workers, but that's been ongoing before 'Obama care' got in the mix. I would suggest it was very broken, you have a population that has sections dying of conditions simply because they can't afford to pay for it to be treated. Is that what it comes down to? Your 'worth' is based on the dollars you have? And let die those who can't afford it? Which is a great situation; right up until it's yourself, then it isn't so good.  Do you know that the world debt is at least five times more than there is money in circulation? So affordability is moot. Nothing any administration ever 'buys' will be bought with money, it's bought with more debt, it has been for years.

*Yes I do

A lot of things I wanted to reply here, but heres what I'll say.
If you think the US government is messed up, Just imagine how much messed up our medical system will be when they control it.... Or did you already have faith that our government had so much interest in health care, that they DIDN'T just let these Pre-obamacare people die before their bill was passed. BTW, that whole myth about mass people dying, was a sales pitch Nanvy Pelosi used. 

This isn't just about controling peoples medical, it's about controling the people. Control the people, make them rely on you, and they will in return keep voting for you.

[NowhereInTime]

A lot of things I wanted to reply here, but heres what I'll say.
If you think the US government is messed up, Just imagine how much messed up our medical system will be when they control it.... Or did you already have faith that our government had so much interest in health care, that they DIDN'T just let these Pre-obamacare people die before their bill was passed. BTW, that whole myth about mass people dying, was a sales pitch Nanvy Pelosi used. 

This isn't just about controling peoples medical, it's about controling the people. Control the people, make them rely on you, and they will in return keep voting for you.

You mean like Medicare?  Or the Social Security Administration?  These organizations run as models of efficiency.  Medicare consistently rates higher in satisfaction than private insurance:

http://www.nationaljournal.com/njonline/who-s-afraid-of-public-insurance-20090629

Do you mean the Defense Department? I see a defense department, depleted by war after war yet ready, willing and able to step up to the next mission.  Are they "messed up?"
Well, that's about 3/4 of the US Budget, so you must mean something else...

I see a US Congress that is messed up; a House overrun by spoiled brats who cross their arms and stamp their feet at every proposal not made by them.  I see a Senate with posturing old men who fearfully look over their shoulder at the spoiled brat upstart about to take their job in a primary where maybe a tenth of the total electorate votes.
I see an intelligence community that has WAAAAAAY overstepped its mandate and a Supreme Court so invested in protecting the wealthy that it overturns a 100 year old campaign finance law to allow the Koch brothers to spend as much as they want to say whatever they want but not have to own it.

The Republicans gave us prescription drug plans in 2003 yet do not "control" the Senate or the White House. 

And maybe it was a "myth" about "mass people dying" but the fact is many people do die because they lack care and many people's homes are put into foreclosure to pay medical bills. 
That's what is really "messed up."

[PB the Deplorable]

You mean like Medicare?  Or the Social Security Administration?  These organizations run as models of efficiency.  Medicare consistently rates higher in satisfaction than private insurance...

That would be wonderful if they weren't going broke.  People that got in early on other Ponzi schemes were happy too.  For awhile.

... Do you mean the Defense Department? I see a defense department, depleted by war after war yet ready, willing and able to step up to the next mission.  Are they "messed up?"

Well, that's about 3/4 of the US Budget, so you must mean something else...

The Department of Defense is about 20% of the Federal budget.  Not 3/4.

This is one of the reasons the Libs are usually so wrong about so much - their ideas are based on emotions and not facts or thought.  They see things the way they believe them to be, rather than what is.  They never look in the rear view mirror to see the damage their policies do, they just double down and continue on, convinced they are the righteous enlightened ones.  It's about what makes them feel good, and not about what works.

So we get comments like the DoD is 3/4ths of the budget.  Then - based on that - claims that it's 'too much'.



As far as the US military being efficient, yes it is.  There are certain things best done by government, and the military is first among them.  That's why it's listed in the Constitution as one of the few things the federal government is supposed to do.

That the military is efficient does not carry over or imply the government is or would be efficient doing any other tasks we would have them do.  That should be obvious on it's face.  It is to most people.  If the government were as efficient at everything as it is with a military, Mao's China, North Korea, and the old USSR would be shining successes.  The Post Office would have run UPS and FedEx out of business long ago.  The DMV would be efficient, and there would be long lines and waits at McDonalds.  Western Europe would have led during the late 1900s and the US would have had chronic unemployment and stagflation.

... I see a US Congress that is messed up; a House overrun by spoiled brats who cross their arms and stamp their feet at every proposal not made by them.  I see a Senate with posturing old men who fearfully look over their shoulder at the spoiled brat upstart about to take their job in a primary where maybe a tenth of the total electorate votes.
I see an intelligence community that has WAAAAAAY overstepped its mandate and a Supreme Court so invested in protecting the wealthy that it overturns a 100 year old campaign finance law to allow the Koch brothers to spend as much as they want to say whatever they want but not have to own it.

The Republicans gave us prescription drug plans in 2003 yet do not "control" the Senate or the White House. 

And maybe it was a "myth" about "mass people dying" but the fact is many people do die because they lack care and many people's homes are put into foreclosure to pay medical bills. 
That's what is really "messed up."

Wow, your mind is just chock full of incoherent Left wing bumper sticker half truths. 

I'd say when the people don't like what they see and return the other party to power, it's those representatives job to check the power of a President and his policies that are opposed by the majority.  I realize the President and the Left aren't much interested in democracy, checks and balances, personal liberty and responsibility and all that, but the rest of us are and are going to fight to keep it.  You want spoiled brats, go down to an Occupy rally - oh, right, you already do.

It will be interesting to see what the current supporters say down the road a little ways when the full disaster of ObamaCare is revealed when fully implemented.  Although like Socialists in the past, they'll be blaming it's failure on someone else, on not being implemented 'correctly', and there will be pleas for more cash and more time to 'do it right'.

[Yorkshire pud]

A lot of things I wanted to reply here, but heres what I'll say.
If you think the US government is messed up, Just imagine how much messed up our medical system will be when they control it.... Or did you already have faith that our government had so much interest in health care, that they DIDN'T just let these Pre-obamacare people die before their bill was passed. BTW, that whole myth about mass people dying, was a sales pitch Nanvy Pelosi used. 

This isn't just about controling peoples medical, it's about controling the people. Control the people, make them rely on you, and they will in return keep voting for you.

I didn't say or mean to imply "mass people dying"; But you can hardly agree that it's good for any nation that people die because of cost of the treatment? Our NHS doesn't mean we're controlled. Far from it, if anything it's the other way around. I would be the last to say it's anywhere near perfect, but consider this:

At aged six I had a burst appendix, blues and twos to hospital where it was discovered it was complicated with peritonitis, I spent three weeks in hospital and it very nearly killed me. When I started work I was injured in minor ways a few times over the years. I had treatment in hospital or my local GP. In my thirties, I had over two years, an arthroscopy in my knee to clear out loose cartilage that was driving me mad; and two inguinal hernia fixes (that was a week in hospital). Fortunately I haven't needed anything later other than a scare which proved negative for my prostate. My mother has had a heart attack and a heart bypass and is a diabetic, she's also had treatment for pancreatitis. My father has had several angina attacks since 1988, a triple bypass, and at least one stroke, (actually TIA's). My ex wife had non specific symptoms that laid her up in hospital on and off for weeks, until she was diagnosed with ankylosing spondylitis, a rare, and difficult condition to diagnose easily and with any certainty. Later the ante natal care resulting in the birth of my son who was born in a maternity suite... with ongoing after care to mother and child...

And all the above cost at the point of need? Zero.

Now you can think that means myself and others are being controlled if you like, but from where I'm sitting? Nope...Of course you can have private medical care if you wish to, we have such hospitals; but none are capable of A&E, they only do elective (read; profitable) surgery. 

[Foodlion]

I didn't say or mean to imply "mass people dying"; But you can hardly agree that it's good for any nation that people die because of cost of the treatment? Our NHS doesn't mean we're controlled. Far from it, if anything it's the other way around. I would be the last to say it's anywhere near perfect, but consider this:

Sorry, I did not mean to put words into your mouth. My appologies.

At aged six I had a burst appendix, blues and twos to hospital where it was discovered it was complicated with peritonitis, I spent three weeks in hospital and it very nearly killed me. When I started work I was injured in minor ways a few times over the years. I had treatment in hospital or my local GP. In my thirties, I had over two years, an arthroscopy in my knee to clear out loose cartilage that was driving me mad; and two inguinal hernia fixes (that was a week in hospital). Fortunately I haven't needed anything later other than a scare which proved negative for my prostate. My mother has had a heart attack and a heart bypass and is a diabetic, she's also had treatment for pancreatitis. My father has had several angina attacks since 1988, a triple bypass, and at least one stroke, (actually TIA's). My ex wife had non specific symptoms that laid her up in hospital on and off for weeks, until she was diagnosed with ankylosing spondylitis, a rare, and difficult condition to diagnose easily and with any certainty. Later the ante natal care resulting in the birth of my son who was born in a maternity suite... with ongoing after care to mother and child...

Sorry to hear that.

And all the above cost at the point of need? Zero.

Nothing in this world is free, but the air we breath.

Now you can think that means myself and others are being controlled if you like, but from where I'm sitting? Nope...Of course you can have private medical care if you wish to, we have such hospitals; but none are capable of A&E, they only do elective (read; profitable) surgery.

Obamacare makes it be manditory for companys to register their workers who work over 40 hours or more a week into the program. That is why they are laying off full time, and hiring part time.
If a full time worker is fired or laid off, then the company has to pay for that workers health care for the next 6 months.
So I, as an individual have my right, but the company that hire me does not. Does that sound so free will to you? Not me.

What If I pay for my own private medical insurance? I am penalized for doing so, even though It is my own decision.

Now that this new health care bill has passed, you'd think people would be standing at the doors to sign up right?  No, Quite the opposite. The Government is having to enforce the new health care laws via IRS. This is because the vast population does not want it.

I'm not saying people will benefit from this, but at what expense? Thousands of jobs cut or lost, Companies filing for bankruptcy, Nation wide wages cut, and a letter from the IRS demanding you register into the system?
But don't take my word for it... just follow the news this 1st of October after it starts. 

[PB the Deplorable]

I didn't say or mean to imply "mass people dying"; But you can hardly agree that it's good for any nation that people die because of cost of the treatment? Our NHS doesn't mean we're controlled. Far from it, if anything it's the other way around...

People are confusing health care with health care insurance. 

No one is dying in the streets.  Everyone is getting the medical care they need.  Some people don't have jobs that have health care insurance as a benefit and don't buy their own.  They pay for doctor visits out of their own pocket instead.  There are programs at the federal, state and local level for people that can't afford medical care.

If the medical situation was what you are imagining, the Media would be all over it.  They would love it.  How useful that would be to further their Statist agenda.

As far as health care, I'd argue we have the best in the world.  People come here from all over the world - including Canada and Western Europe where it's 'free' - to get procedures done.  The insurance system and the fact that it's tied to employment is what's screwed up.  The D's and Libs have wanted Euro-style government run national health care here in the US for decades.  The whole idea of ObamaCare is to destroy what we have, saddle us with this unworkable piece of shit, then wait for us to clamor for national healthcare.  Harry Reid is even on record as saying that.

It would have been much easier to fix the problems on the insurance side and leave everyone else alone.  In fact that's what these liars said they were doing ('if you like your insurance, you can keep it').  Instead they gave us this giant mess.  Intentionally. Cynically.  Typically of that party.

The Ds could have worked with the Rs and given us something far less intrusive, or market based, or any of a number of things.  But they had control of the House, the Presidency, and 60 votes in the Senate.  They didn't give a hoot what the people of this country wanted, what was best, or even something workable.  And they certainly didn't want to work with the Rs ('we won the election' said Obama).  Then they have the gall to say the Rs wouldn't work with them.  And now they are whining that the Rs are blocking everything they want to do.  I wish that were true.


Pud, I'll admit I know (and care) little about nationalized health care is in other countries.  I respect their right to do it their way.  But what  hear from friends and even the media is that it's great if a person needs a checkup or some inexpensive medicines or procedures, but if it's something expensive or if the person is older, then there is either a long waiting period, or they just don't prescribe the expensive drug, or if a person is past a certain age they just plain don't get the procedure. 

That's called being under the control of the govt.  I think people in other countries accept and are ok with that, but not here.  It's not who we are as a culture or society

[NowhereInTime]

That would be wonderful if they weren't going broke.  People that got in early on other Ponzi schemes were happy too.  For awhile.




The Department of Defense is about 20% of the Federal budget.  Not 3/4.

This is one of the reasons the Libs are usually so wrong about so much - their ideas are based on emotions and not facts or thought.  They see things the way they believe them to be, rather than what is.  They never look in the rear view mirror to see the damage their policies do, they just double down and continue on, convinced they are the righteous enlightened ones.  It's about what makes them feel good, and not about what works.

So we get comments like the DoD is 3/4ths of the budget.  Then - based on that - claims that it's 'too much'.



As far as the US military being efficient, yes it is.  There are certain things best done by government, and the military is first among them.  That's why it's listed in the Constitution as one of the few things the federal government is supposed to do.

That the military is efficient does not carry over or imply the government is or would be efficient doing any other tasks we would have them do.  That should be obvious on it's face.  It is to most people.  If the government were as efficient at everything as it is with a military, Mao's China, North Korea, and the old USSR would be shining successes.  The Post Office would have run UPS and FedEx out of business long ago.  The DMV would be efficient, and there would be long lines and waits at McDonalds.  Western Europe would have led during the late 1900s and the US would have had chronic unemployment and stagflation.






Wow, your mind is just chock full of incoherent Left wing bumper sticker half truths. 

I'd say when the people don't like what they see and return the other party to power, it's those representatives job to check the power of a President and his policies that are opposed by the majority.  I realize the President and the Left aren't much interested in democracy, checks and balances, personal liberty and responsibility and all that, but the rest of us are and are going to fight to keep it.  You want spoiled brats, go down to an Occupy rally - oh, right, you already do.

It will be interesting to see what the current supporters say down the road a little ways when the full disaster of ObamaCare is revealed when fully implemented.  Although like Socialists in the past, they'll be blaming it's failure on someone else, on not being implemented 'correctly', and there will be pleas for more cash and more time to 'do it right'.

Paper Boy:
Seriously?  I know conservatives like to pick and choose half truths to bolster their morally flimsy arguments but even you, if you took a moment, would've realized I was talking about (as I started with) Social Security, Medicare, and the Defense Department.  Combined they are 3/4 of our budget.  Food Lion was talking about the US government being "messed up" and I took 3/4 of it to demonstrate how his assertion was off the mark . 
If you can't pick up on that then that's on you.
Meanwhile, you use your inability to get the main idea as a platform for yet more invective against liberals, their math, their minds, their right to exist, blah, blah.
Would you at least bother to get your info right before your next attack?

[NowhereInTime]

People are confusing health care with health care insurance. 

No one is dying in the streets.  Everyone is getting the medical care they need.  Some people don't have jobs that have health care insurance as a benefit and don't buy their own.  They pay for doctor visits out of their own pocket instead.  There are programs at the federal, state and local level for people that can't afford medical care.

If the medical situation was what you are imagining, the Media would be all over it.  They would love it.  How useful that would be to further their Statist agenda.

As far as health care, I'd argue we have the best in the world.  People come here from all over the world - including Canada and Western Europe where it's 'free' - to get procedures done.  The insurance system and the fact that it's tied to employment is what's screwed up.  The D's and Libs have wanted Euro-style government run national health care here in the US for decades.  The whole idea of ObamaCare is to destroy what we have, saddle us with this unworkable piece of shit, then wait for us to clamor for national healthcare.  Harry Reid is even on record as saying that.

It would have been much easier to fix the problems on the insurance side and leave everyone else alone.  In fact that's what these liars said they were doing ('if you like your insurance, you can keep it').  Instead they gave us this giant mess.  Intentionally. Cynically.  Typically of that party.

The Ds could have worked with the Rs and given us something far less intrusive, or market based, or any of a number of things.  But they had control of the House, the Presidency, and 60 votes in the Senate.  They didn't give a hoot what the people of this country wanted, what was best, or even something workable.  And they certainly didn't want to work with the Rs ('we won the election' said Obama).  Then they have the gall to say the Rs wouldn't work with them.  And now they are whining that the Rs are blocking everything they want to do.  I wish that were true.


Pud, I'll admit I know (and care) little about nationalized health care is in other countries.  I respect their right to do it their way.  But what  hear from friends and even the media is that it's great if a person needs a checkup or some inexpensive medicines or procedures, but if it's something expensive or if the person is older, then there is either a long waiting period, or they just don't prescribe the expensive drug, or if a person is past a certain age they just plain don't get the procedure. 

That's called being under the control of the govt.  I think people in other countries accept and are ok with that, but not here.  It's not who we are as a culture or society

Yeah.  Mitt Romney (R-MA) came up with the plan.  For the 100th time, this plan requires EVERYBODY to have insurance or pay the waiver to offset the costs of the overwhelming amount of free medical care emergency rooms give now.  AND it is an exchange where companies COMPETE for customers.  Isn't that a market?
I don't feel it's fair that Dr.s & Nurses bust their asses to help everyone but some patients can't or won't pay.  This way, even the poorest, the tiny few who would be subsidized, can and will get preventive care which will greatly reduce the need to treat symptoms down the road (and reduce care costs).
There is only ONE concession to the current plan I would yield and that is that we do need tort reform.  Lottery payouts for "malpractice" are overboard and reducing the court and/or settlement costs would help reduce health care costs.

[Yorkshire pud]

Pud, I'll admit I know (and care) little about nationalized health care is in other countries.  I respect their right to do it their way.  But what  hear from friends and even the media is that it's great if a person needs a checkup or some inexpensive medicines or procedures, but if it's something expensive or if the person is older, then there is either a long waiting period, or they just don't prescribe the expensive drug, or if a person is past a certain age they just plain don't get the procedure. 

That's called being under the control of the govt.  I think people in other countries accept and are ok with that, but not here.  It's not who we are as a culture or society

There is no restriction on age when it comes to expensive treatments; that shouldn't be mixed up with procedures that may not be in the patients's best interests.. Little point putting anyone through a procedure (young or old) if it will actually make things worse or give no improvement. As for drugs, their cost effectiveness is taken into consideration, but the reason for that is the pharma companies in some circumstances try to rip off the NHS and indeed other countries' procurement departments. I don't where you get this idea of 'past a certain age' from. My father has several meds he takes each day that cost him nothing, he's 78. Again, I don't see how that means we're under the control of the government. Incidentally, the NHS was established in 1948, we've had several governments since then.

[Juan]

Social Security is not on the Federal Budget.  That's part of the problem.  Lots and lots of spending not accounted for on the budget.

[RealCool Daddio]

As a Canadian who moved to the US a year and a half ago, I have had recent experience with both the US and Canadian healthcare systems.  My, and my family's, experience has been that the US system - as experienced here in Texas - is a much better consumer experience than in Canada.  Obviously, this is small sample size, and my situation is not typical.  As part of my company's transfer package, I pay nothing ($0) for top end health insurance for me and my family, as most Canadians would refuse a transfer from Canada otherwise.  My US colleagues probably pay about 500$ a month for similar coverage in the company plan, but I don't know for certain.

One area of marked difference is the cost of prescription drugs - about  twice as expensive in the US compared to Canada.  Also, the dental care here is way bellow Canadian standards, both in terms of quality and consumer experience. I'll let others make jokes for Pud about UK dental care 

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Comparison_of_Canadian_and_American_health_care_systems

[onan]

People are confusing health care with health care insurance. 

No one is dying in the streets. 


As far as health care, I'd argue we have the best in the world. 

These 3 points... first medical insurance as it stands is a crime. Private insurance often leaves customers holding the bag for huge debts. Private insurance operates at more than a 25% overhead. Medicare and Medicaid run at a 3% overhead.

People are not dropping dead in the street... true; but they are dying more quickly due to lack of medical care. And when they do drop and are taken to an emergency department, their costs, which you and I pay, are as much at 10 times the cost of preventative care.

We have some of the poorer medical care per dollar spent than countries with socialized medicine. Yes emergent care is better here than in some countries, but that is changing. And the reason we are the best in emergent care is often at the expense of more mundane medical treatment where costs are better contained.

[PB the Deplorable]

The various problems with our health care and health care insurance that people bring up were and are real.  They needed to be addressed.

That meant ending the abuses of the insurance companies and coming up with something to get people who couldn't afford it coverage.  But look at what we got - this ObamaCare thing could well be the worst piece of legislation ever passed.  Passed without a single R vote, it is a reminder of the benefits of having a multiparty system.

And since it was passed without a single R vote, and the Ds allowed little if any input at the time, why should they expect any R votes to fund it now?

[Tinfoil Hat]

So my company got bought out by a larger company. In January, we transition to new benefits. We no longer have an HMO and are limited to an HSA or an HRA. Obamacare is actually going to be a better option for many, especially those with children.

The kicker is, I work for a health insurance company. Almost all of the products we sell are better than the company "benefits". When the government option is better, you know something's wrong.