Kids In Car Seats?

[Seamus Capone]

It's fine to put babies and toddlers in car seats or booster seats. It's weird to see older kids in them, though. Am I the only person who thinks this? In California, kids under eight have to ride in booster seats if they're shorter than 4'9. Some legislators want to increase the age and height/weight requirements. One helicopter mom advocated putting small teens in them! This kind of infantilization would have been unthinkable when most of us were kids. It wouldn't even occur to most people. I sat on my mom's lap or my sisters' laps while riding in the front seat of our car when I was a toddler. I rode with uncles, who drove like Jimmy Johnson, when I was in kindergarten. All of us rode in the backs of pickup trucks. All of us played in the rears of station wagons.  We also managed to ride our bikes without safety helmets too. Only challenged kids did this when I was in grade school, and no older kids rode in baby seats. We also drove home-made box cars, and we rode home-made go-carts, sometimes improvising for brakes (crash).  Somehow, we all managed to survive into our thirties. Are we infantilizing our younger generations via the growing and spreading Nanny State?     

[DangerousBlossom]

 No comment on kids, but short adults should be using booster seats -- when they are driving.  Many times I have seen a car that appeared to be driverless.  I wondered: is this some paranormal event that I should report to c2c???  But no, there are hands on the steering wheel and the top of a head is barely visible!  It is an Asian woman and her 5 inch heels are not helping her since she is sitting down.  Can she see?  Not too well.

Once I was at a rental car place and the employees were telling a woman they would not rent a car to her unless she used a booster seat.  She argued with them for 20 mins. (while no one else was called to wait on the other people in line, of course).  "I never do that and I've never gotten a ticket."  "It's a safety issue; we can't rent the car to you otherwise."  "I'm not a child!"  "It's a safety issue, ma’am.” (and so on FOREVER).

I am in the SF Bay Area and there are plenty of adults here who are under 5 feet tall.  (Not all Asian or Filipino, and not all female, but I would say that this is the largest group.)  If they were only endangering themselves, this wouldn’t bother me so much, but they are endangering everyone on the road.

And, yes, they ARE often using hand held cell phones.  (Illegal here, but still very, very common.)

[Lovely Bones]

I'll ride the fence about the car seats.  It's true I rode all over the U.S. in the station wagon rear deck when I was a kid, and I have lived to tell about it.  But my dad was an exceptionally good driver, and maybe we were lucky. 

OTOH, I do think we over-protect our kids in a gazillion ways that will ultimately harm them.  When we were kids, we played in dirt, drank out of the garden hose, let the dog lick us in the face, handled bugs and bunny rabbits, and went to the grocery store all without the benefit of Purel (sp?) or antiseptic wipes.  I'm not making this up: I was in the store one day and heard some kid almost in tears because his mom had forgotten the Purel and he wouldn't be able to wash his hands until he got home!  We're raising generations of germaphobes.  And we're raising kids whose immune systems can't fight off the germs they ARE exposed to. 

We also did all sorts of things parents today would never let their kids do.  We climbed trees and built tree forts in them with scrap lumber and nails we found around the basement.  No pre-fab plastic construction play houses and tree forts that dad put together--we were up there swinging from tree branches ourselves.  We'd go down to the creek and dam it up and make a "swimming" hole, such as it was.  I was always finding wounded animals and dragging them home from my mom to patch up, and she never once freaked out or told me to drop "that filthy animal."  Instead, she'd do things like put the oven on warm, then turn it off and convert it to a nursery for young birds that had fallen from nests or baby bunnies that had been abandoned. 

I'm rambling, but my point is that I loved having a guided but not over-protected childhood where I was allowed to dream, fantasize, try out new things, and not be restricted and sanitized to the point that I never got to experience the world!  Too bad our kids today are all sitting in front of the tube with their iPods and a box of antiseptic wipes. 

[Pertzborn]

Here's a link to a TED video where Steve Levitt (Freakonomics guy) talks about this:

http://www.ted.com/talks/steven_levitt_on_child_carseats.html

Warning:  if you haven't been to TED yet you may spend several days watching their stuff.

TL/DW:  Rear-facing car seats are very effective for infant safety, but the jury is out for the effectiveness for older children. 

[Usagi]

Sorry, but if there is any evidence saying that a kid under a certain height is statistically safer in a car seat, they should absolutely be in one.  No, you can't trust many parents to make the right decision.  The children of those parents shouldn't be put in potential danger because of that. 


My son is seven... and I honestly couldn't imagine NOT having him in a booster seat.  And, no, it doesn't look or feel strange at all, especially considering every other child of around his age is in them as well.  If it were the law in every state, it would cease being "strange" for anyone. Forget the fact of the added benefit of him being able to see out of the window better.  And, no, I'm not a "helicopter parent"...  certainly not by Seattle standards.


Very random question.

[Pertzborn]

Sorry, but if there is any evidence saying that a kid under a certain height is statistically safer in a car seat, they should absolutely be in one.  No, you can't trust many parents to make the right decision.  The children of those parents shouldn't be put in potential danger because of that.

I agree completely.  Parents are weird though. Some will practically wrap their kids in bubble wrap but won't get them vaccinated.  Some won't feed infants milk.  Some indoctrinate their kids in cults.

[Seamus Capone]

@Blossom: Don't give them any ideas! I don't wanna see a sign, that says "you must be taller than this to drive without a booster seat", when I renew my driver's license. The lines and the waits are already too long at the DMV. I'd hate to get stuck behind a group of angry short people, waiting to purchase their mandatory booster seats. I also don't wanna have to stand in front of a height chart while they take my photo. At the rate we're going, we'll soon be forced to use crash helmets and roll bars when we drive. It takes just one rare tragedy to pass one short-sighted new law when do-gooders in government see an opportunity to generate more revenue. BTW, it really *can* be disconcerting to see those "haunted cars" on the road.   

@Bones: I doubt that you've ever rambled in your life. You're one of the most coherent and sensible individuals on the internet. You were raised well too. Your parents gave you the freedom to explore the world around you within limits based on common sense. They weren't neglectful *or* overprotective. Most people over thirty can relate to your post in some way. It made me more appreciative of my own childhood.

@Pertzborn: Thanks for the link. I'm sure that manufacturers are part of the equation too.

@Usagi: I respect your right as a parent to make informed choices for your children. However, I don't think that the federal or state government should force all families to make the same decisions. I got the idea for this thread after I saw a bigger, older kid in a booster seat, and it looked strange to me. I didn't want the  conversation to get lost in the thread about things that annoy us.

[Lovely Bones]

Thanks for your comments, Seamus.  You are too kind.

FWIW, I completely agree with your observations about government intrusion into our lives.  Have you followed the food police stories where elementary school children had their home packed lunches taken from them only to be replaced by chicken nuggets supplied by the schools?  Chicken nuggets supposedly superior to turkey breast sandwiches, banana, and apple juice?  The little ones were actually told their mothers had not packed them nutritious enough meals. 

[Seamus Capone]

Thanks for your comments, Seamus.  You are too kind.

FWIW, I completely agree with your observations about government intrusion into our lives.  Have you followed the food police stories where elementary school children had their home packed lunches taken from them only to be replaced by chicken nuggets supplied by the schools?  Chicken nuggets supposedly superior to turkey breast sandwiches, banana, and apple juice?  The little ones were actually told their mothers had not packed them nutritious enough meals.

I indeed saw a few news segments about the lunch lady on a power trip. I share your feelings about that event. It seems like we see a new scene from "Idiocracy" every day. You sometimes don't know whether to laugh or cry. There are so many stories from which to choose, but the ones that take place at airports are among the worst. Just this month, a security drone noticed that a new mother had some empty bottles (for her breast milk) while she waited to board her flight. He told her that she had to fill them with breast milk before she could proceed any further. Sadly, she went to a public restroom and complied with this bizarre and stupid demand. It was wrong on so many levels. If you're not familiar with this inexplicable tale, you can be forgiven for not believing it. It sounds too weird to be true. The TSA is my own "1,001 Dalmatians" of pet peeves. I also have zero tolerance for zero tolerance laws in public schools. You've heard the stories about how students are punished for bringing "hard drugs" (Bayer aspirin) and "dangerous weapons" (plastic knives) to school. We could write a book, as thick as "War and Peace", filled with such examples. The most tragic examples arise from the draconian three-strikes laws that may sentence a repeat offender to life in prison for stealing a slice of pizza! :-(

[Lovely Bones]

Just this month, a security drone noticed that a new mother had some empty bottles (for her breast milk) while she waited to board her flight. He told her that she had to fill them with breast milk before she could proceed any further. Sadly, she went to a public restroom and complied with this bizarre and stupid demand. It was wrong on so many levels.

For the life of me, I could not figure out the logic of this demand.  Fill up these bottles and prove to us that you weren't going to transport air??

Your plastic knives and aspirin made me think of the kindergartner a couple years ago who was suspended on sexual harrassment charges because he hugged a little female classmate.  What a great message to send to a five-year-old, who likely learned at home that showing affection for his parents and siblings and playmates was perfectly fine. 

Hope I'm not taking the OP's original intent too far astray--still looking at essentially the same question, which is this: when are laws/policies legitimate to protect citizens, and when do they cross the line into trampling on our rights as citizens?  That's not a new question, but it's far from resolved, IMO. 

[Seamus Capone]

For the life of me, I could not figure out the logic of this demand.  Fill up these bottles and prove to us that you weren't going to transport air??

Your plastic knives and aspirin made me think of the kindergartner a couple years ago who was suspended on sexual harrassment charges because he hugged a little female classmate.  What a great message to send to a five-year-old, who likely learned at home that showing affection for his parents and siblings and playmates was perfectly fine. 

Hope I'm not taking the OP's original intent too far astray--still looking at essentially the same question, which is this: when are laws/policies legitimate to protect citizens, and when do they cross the line into trampling on our rights as citizens?  That's not a new question, but it's far from resolved, IMO.

I couldn't figure out his thinking, either. It made no sense. I thought that they banned certain liquids and gels, not air. It almost seemed like an experiment to see how far they could push people. Few of these rules and regulations make sense. One moron puts a bomb in his shoe, and all people have to remove their shoes. One idiot plants explosives in his underwear, and all passengers get searched like prisoners. It's all disproportional and reactive theatre, at best. It's a gross abuse of people's human rights, at worst.

It's fine with me if the thread goes beyond the issue of infantilization. Speaking of which, I just heard that a large number of older children can't even tie their shoes. They better not ask any students or teachers to help them when they're in school. There's probably some policy that prohibits it. Your story brought to mind something I read back in February. A kid was charged with assault because he touched a kid's leg during a game of tag. You also read stories about police using mace or tasers on grade school students before they're dragged off in handcuffs. One girl was arrested when she wrote on her desk. What explains this nonsense? I think that they're petrified of liability to the point where they lose their collective minds. They replaced common sense with Orwellian insanity. Morality and reason are things of the past because it's safer to rely on one-size-fits-all bureaucratic regulations instead of value judgments.

I've heard judges and teachers complain that they're hamstrung by all of this red tape, but no one had the courage to cut any of it. It likely will get much worse, and many people won't even notice it because the statists remove our freedoms in stages. It's like the proverbial frog in the pan. Fortunately, more frogs feel the heat.

[Harmness]

I couldn't figure out his thinking, either.

TSA employee.  There was no thinking.

[Seamus Capone]

TSA employee.  There was no thinking.

It's a job disqualification. "IQs above ninety need not apply."