Art Bell

[WhiteCrow]

Nope...not really. I figure anytime someone calls your life and your livelihood a joke, they need to apologize.

I think I have given it long enough....onan goes on ignore.

Let us find some common ground.... Onan would you post that a catholic priests' life's work was a joke?

[FightTheFuture]

  I'm descended from people who put ergot in their every meal.

I do believe The X Files included that in an episode where Agent Scully went all Bohemian and got herself a tattoo

[RealCool Daddio]

Onan...you own me an apology. No joke.

What does he need to apologize for?  That medical science hasn't cured your need for validation of your peculiar belief system?

[RealCool Daddio]

Nope...not really. I figure anytime someone calls your life and your livelihood a joke, they need to apologize.

I think I have given it long enough....onan goes on ignore.

Ah, the Martinez, CA school of Internet message boards - act crazy, and ignore the "haters".  Have you considered asking Noory for free glasses?

[SciFiAuthor]

Let us find some common ground.... Onan would you post that a catholic priests' life's work was a joke?

I'll help build common ground. I am just as skeptical as Onan. However, I would not say that a Catholic Priest or an Astrologer's career was a waste of time or anything like that. The reason I wouldn't is because there is a human side to it. Some people take comfort from Catholicism or Astrology or metaphysics in general, therefore it's worthwhile from a human point of view. I have no problem with people seeking answers in those directions so long as it benefits them. Just don't burn me as a heretic over it and don't let it get out of hand.

I say all this, but really I'm just bitter over my failed career as a witch doctor in Borneo. Very finicky people the implipti head hunters. One week you're a sun god, the next you're the white devil. Ah well. *Stabs the Onan voodoo doll again*

[WhiteCrow]

What does he need to apologize for?  That medical science hasn't cured your need for validation of your peculiar belief system?

Label me dumb, but I haven't a clue what you are trying to convey.
So let me ask you question, that may enlighten me.

If a well respected medical research doctor was a Catholic, would his "peculiar belief system" make him, in your opinion a fool?

[GeorgieForPresident2216]

I'll help build common ground. I am just as skeptical as Onan. However, I would not say that a Catholic Priest or an Astrologer's career was a waste of time or anything like that. The reason I wouldn't is because there is a human side to it. Some people take comfort from Catholicism or Astrology or metaphysics in general, therefore it's worthwhile from a human point of view. I have no problem with people seeking answers in those directions so long as it benefits them. Just don't burn me as a heretic over it and don't let it get out of hand.

I say all this, but really I'm just bitter over my failed career as a witch doctor in Borneo. Very finicky people the implipti head hunters. One week you're a sun god, the next you're the white devil. Ah well. *Stabs the Onan voodoo doll again*

At least they left you with a full sized head, I'm presuming.

[munbeam666]

Ok and now my brain hurts, so done with philosophy for the day.  Gonna go crack some wine.

Freys organic red table wine from Mendocino County. Try it. Really good stuff

[SciFiAuthor]

At least they left you with a full sized head, I'm presuming.

Bastards put a hex on me and turned me into a dolphin. And let me tell you how it happened, I brought a transistor radio and let them listen to Dave. The next thing I know they're all like "You listen to this?" and it was all down hill from there.

[GeorgieForPresident2216]

Bastards put a hex on me and turned me into a dolphin. And let me tell you how it happened, I brought a transistor radio and let them listen to Dave. The next thing I know they're all like "You listen to this?" and it was all down hill from there.

Well, at least they had good taste

[FightTheFuture]

Freys organic red table wine from Mendocino County. Try it. Really good stuff

Agreed! Good stuff. No sulphates!

[K_Dubb]

I'll help build common ground. I am just as skeptical as Onan."

I'll try to help too, for what it's worth, as a reluctant skeptic.  Magical thinking has formed a major part of every society for thousands of years.  You could say in evolutionary terms it was kind of selected for.  The impulse to believe seems to be buried very deep.

I'm worried about what will happen when that support is removed and societies turn hostile to spirituality.  It's a huge social experiment to replace spirituality with scientific rationalism, and the twentieth century gave us some horrific examples.

[aldousburbank]

There is quite a bit of discussion regarding schizophrenia and dreaming breaking into conscious thought. As to whether a group of prehistoric people all had that dysfunction, probably not, unless they ingested some variation of a hallucinogenic.

Julian Jaynes
The Origin of Consciousness in the Breakdown of the Bicameral Mind

At the heart of this classic, seminal book is Julian Jaynes's still-controversial thesis that human consciousness did not begin far back in animal evolution but instead is a learned process that came about only three thousand years ago and is still developing. The implications of this revolutionary scientific paradigm extend into virtually every aspect of our psychology, our history and culture, our religion -- and indeed our future.

[SciFiAuthor]

I'll try to help too, for what it's worth, as a reluctant skeptic.  Magical thinking has formed a major part of every society for thousands of years.  You could say in evolutionary terms it was kind of selected for.  The impulse to believe seems to be buried very deep.

I'm worried about what will happen when that support is removed and societies turn hostile to spirituality.  It's a huge social experiment to replace spirituality with scientific rationalism, and the twentieth century gave us some horrific examples.

You are right to be worried. There are a number of near-term technologies that are rapidly coming that are going to very much change the equation for the religions. When computers truly pass the Turing test is one of them, that's going to be a problem for the concept of a soul. When biotech makes humans virtually immortal is another. Who needs Jesus when you don't die? We are less than 40 years from confronting these questions.

As a futurist if I had to characterize how I feel about the coming biotech revolution and it's effects on society, I would have to say that I am scared shitless.

[Chronaut]

It’s interesting that so few people ever question the ontological supremacy of this state of consciousness, and therefore presume that any state of consciousness other than this one must be an intrinsically inferior form, such as delusions, dreams, or hallucinations.

The truth is that the thought process is just another form of dream, and we’re all walking around half-asleep, dreaming in words all day long every day.  The fact that we’re not fully conscious at this moment is evidenced by the fact that, like the audiovisual dreams that we experience in our sleep, we can’t consciously turn off the thought process for more than a few moments before it grabs us by the throat and we’re enthralled again, lost in thought, dreaming our lives away.  So in a sense, the perpetual sequence of words and memories flowing through our attention right now is a kind of drug, or perhaps mesmerism, which keeps us servile and fearful and sometimes even irrationally hostile.  All of those characteristics are very useful to the kind of people who enjoy exerting control over many others.

The esoteric tradition of ancient mysticism isn’t about inducing hallucinatory dream states or the like.  It’s about waking up from the dream-thought state, which is halfway between the sleeping dream state and full consciousness.  Very few of us ever experience full consciousness, so in a sense we die in our sleep before we ever wake up.  I think that’s tragic.  But I don’t think that anyone has a moral imperative to fully wake up: consciousness is a gift â€" if you don’t want to open the box and see what’s inside that’s your prerogative.

The consequences of us all living our lives half-awake are truly horrific though:  global human society is more like a raving insane asylum than a genuine civilization.  The petty and gross horrors that we inflict upon one another are as chilling as they are pervasive, as individually and collectively we stumble forward blindly, confused and erratic, from oppression to uprising and slaughter without any meaningful or enduring sense of purpose, over and over again throughout our lives and throughout history.

This could all change if we as individuals were to experience full waking consciousness, even for a moment.  But first we need to grow so dissatisfied with the state of our existence that we’re earnestly willing to entertain the possibility that we are not fully awake.  Honestly, and sadly, I see no sign of that happening.

[WhiteCrow]

I'll try to help too, for what it's worth, as a reluctant skeptic.  Magical thinking has formed a major part of every society for thousands of years.  You could say in evolutionary terms it was kind of selected for.  The impulse to believe seems to be buried very deep.

I'm worried about what will happen when that support is removed and societies turn hostile to spirituality.  It's a huge social experiment to replace spirituality with scientific rationalism, and the twentieth century gave us some horrific examples.

Like what happened in the Western World when instutional Nazism replaced traditional instutional religions?

[aldousburbank]

Really?  My great-great-grandfather was a Coyle; I think it's a rye fungus with hallucinogenic properties or something; was it used deliberately?

http://www.amazon.com/The-Road-Eleusis-Unveiling-Mysteries/dp/1556437528

[PB the Deplorable]

Nope...not really. I figure anytime someone calls your life and your livelihood a joke, they need to apologize.

I think I have given it long enough....onan goes on ignore.

Are scientists owed an apology?

... One day, when you stop worshiping science and become just a little bit braver...

... Mysticism is the study of power. And it doesn't limit itself to beakers and lab rats and slide rulers....because....well, because it is not stupid and it is not arrogant. And, above all, it is not afraid of how life really works...

[GeorgieForPresident2216]

<snip>

The truth is that the thought process is just another form of dream, and we’re all walking around half-asleep, dreaming in words all day long every day.  The fact that we’re not fully conscious at this moment is evidenced by the fact that, like the audiovisual dreams that we experience in our sleep, we can’t consciously turn off the thought process for more than a few moments before it grabs us by the throat and we’re enthralled again, lost in thought, dreaming our lives away.  So in a sense, the perpetual sequence of words and memories flowing through our attention right now is a kind of drug, or perhaps mesmerism, which keeps us servile and fearful and sometimes even irrationally hostile.  All of those characteristics are very useful to the kind of people who enjoy exerting control over many others.

<snip>

So we can only achieve full consciousness through meditation?

[PB the Deplorable]

... I think I have given it long enough....onan goes on ignore.

The ebbs and flows of BellGab, I just took everyone off Ignore

[starrmtn001]

Freys organic red table wine from Mendocino County. Try it. Really good stuff

Is it true that drought conditions actually improve the quality of wine?  I heard that somewhere.  I forgot where.

[RealCool Daddio]

Label me dumb, but I haven't a clue what you are trying to convey.
So let me ask you question, that may enlighten me.

If a well respected medical research doctor was a Catholic, would his "peculiar belief system" make him, in your opinion a fool?

If this well respected medical research doctor, who is also a catholic, wanders around public places claiming that his belief system is is more than belief, but somehow based in fact, reality or science, and huffily walks away from anyone who questions his beliefs....then, yeah, I would say he is a fool. 

Ergo, I am trying to convey that Onan does not owe Rosegirl an apology.  Because she is acting like a fool.

[starrmtn001]

Form follows thought (both corporeal and non-corporeal).  You create your own proof of your beliefs to substantiate those beliefs to others.  If you hold a high enough station in life, you can impose those beliefs on others.  Bad idea, BAD!

[Catsmile]

...
Ergo, I am trying to convey that Onan does not owe Rosegirl an apology.  Because she is acting like a fool.

Such a diplomat... you are extending far to much credit, where none is due.

[starrmtn001]

Julian Jaynes
The Origin of Consciousness in the Breakdown of the Bicameral Mind

Bicameral.  Is that like, dromedaries that swing both ways? :

[FightTheFuture]

Is it true that drought conditions actually improve the quality of wine?  I heard that somewhere.  I forgot where.

Affirmative. Drought creates smaller grapes with more concentrated sugars. Yum.

[WhiteCrow]

It’s interesting that so few people ever question the ontological supremacy of this state of consciousness, and therefore presume that any state of consciousness other than this one must be an intrinsically inferior form, such as delusions, dreams, or hallucinations.

The truth is that the thought process is just another form of dream, and we’re all walking around half-asleep, dreaming in words all day long every day.  The fact that we’re not fully conscious at this moment is evidenced by the fact that, like the audiovisual dreams that we experience in our sleep, we can’t consciously turn off the thought process for more than a few moments before it grabs us by the throat and we’re enthralled again, lost in thought, dreaming our lives away.  So in a sense, the perpetual sequence of words and memories flowing through our attention right now is a kind of drug, or perhaps mesmerism, which keeps us servile and fearful and sometimes even irrationally hostile.  All of those characteristics are very useful to the kind of people who enjoy exerting control over many others.

The esoteric tradition of ancient mysticism isn’t about inducing hallucinatory dream states or the like.  It’s about waking up from the dream-thought state, which is halfway between the sleeping dream state and full consciousness.  Very few of us ever experience full consciousness, so in a sense we die in our sleep before we ever wake up.  I think that’s tragic.  But I don’t think that anyone has a moral imperative to fully wake up: consciousness is a gift â€" if you don’t want to open the box and see what’s inside that’s your prerogative.

The consequences of us all living our lives half-awake are truly horrific though:  global human society is more like a raving insane asylum than a genuine civilization.  The petty and gross horrors that we inflict upon one another are as chilling as they are pervasive, as individually and collectively we stumble forward blindly, confused and erratic, from oppression to uprising and slaughter without any meaningful or enduring sense of purpose, over and over again throughout our lives and throughout history.

This could all change if we as individuals were to experience full waking consciousness, even for a moment.  But first we need to grow so dissatisfied with the state of our existence that we’re earnestly willing to entertain the possibility that we are not fully awake.  Honestly, and sadly, I see no sign of that happening.

Very enlightening! Let us assume that most of us will never reach a state of "full waking consciousness" and are doomed to an existence of "individually and collectively we stumble forward blindly, confused and erratic, from oppression to uprising and slaughter without any meaningful or enduring sense of purpose, over and over again throughout our lives and throughout history"

Then wouldn't institutions, that teach justice and moral values, to the majority of the population that will never reach a state of "full consciousness" be a necessary 'evil' to maintain a degree of moral order?

[SciFiAuthor]

Then wouldn't institutions, that teach justice and moral values, to the majority of the population that will never reach a state of "full consciousness" be a necessary 'evil' to maintain a degree of moral order?

They would. Trouble is, that's not truth. That's just keeping the dumb people in line. I agree that such a thing is probably necessary, but it's a really icky thought otherwise.

[RealCool Daddio]

Such a diplomat... you are extending far to much credit, where none is due.

True.  I blame the Girl Scout Cookies.

[starrmtn001]

Affirmative. Drought creates smaller grapes with more concentrated sugars. Yum.

Oh yeah, that's right!  Tangerines!  I had a tangerine tree that had not been watered for a very long time before I moved into the residence.  Sweetest, juiciest tangerines I've ever tasted.