One Hundred Years Ago

[WhiteCrow]

Another from trip to Ottawa.

[Walks_At_Night]

There was an interesting documentary recently that blamed the exploding battlecruisers not on design or concept but on the practice of storing charges in the turrets themselves (for speedier fire) and failing to close the blast doors (I've forgotten the technical term) that seal off the elevators to the turrets from the magazines below.  A hit on the turret would doom the ship.

It claimed that reports surfaced soon after the battle citing these factors and were repressed by the Admiralty.

It is quite possible - the Royal Navy put a premium on rate of fire and they may not closed the antiflash doors, stored the propellant bags in the turret itself or bent the standard procedures in other ways to accomplish this.   In addition, the British used cordite propellant which would not be fun to deal with in a fire. The Germans propellant was known as Rohr-Pulver and was more forgiving.   

The HMS Lion very well might have gone up like a Roman Candle as well if not for the actions of Major Francis Harvey of the Royal Marines.  One of the
shells from SMS Lutzow hit the Lion's Q turret, pushed the face plate in and detonated.   The explosion would blow part of the roof off and cause a major fire.   Major Harvey was mortally hit but he managed to make it to to the voice pipe and ordered the magazine sealed and flooded.    His actions
would save the ship.


Major Francis Harvey


Q Turret compromised armor plate



Still considering the beating Battlecruisers took at Jutland and of course the poor Hood in the next war - sign me up for a
Battlewagon or better yet shore duty in a major surface action.

[Walks_At_Night]

Interesting vid on main naval battery operation

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=0OmOQs0ziSU

[K_Dubb]

It is quite possible - the Royal Navy put a premium on rate of fire and they may not closed the antiflash doors, stored the propellant bags in the turret itself or bent the standard procedures in other ways to accomplish this.   In addition, the British used cordite propellant which would not be fun to deal with in a fire. The Germans propellant was known as Rohr-Pulver and was more forgiving.   

The HMS Lion very well might have gone up like a Roman Candle as well if not for the actions of Major Francis Harvey of the Royal Marines.  One of the
shells from SMS Lutzow hit the Lion's Q turret, pushed the face plate in and detonated.   The explosion would blow part of the roof off and cause a major fire.   Major Harvey was mortally hit but he managed to make it to to the voice pipe and ordered the magazine sealed and flooded.    His actions
would save the ship.


Major Francis Harvey


Q Turret compromised armor plate



Still considering the beating Battlecruisers took at Jutland and of course the poor Hood in the next war - sign me up for a
Battlewagon or better yet shore duty in a major surface action.

Good points.  One could cite lighter armor as a contributing factor.  I always thought the speed for which this sacrifice was made was intended partly to allow the ship to escape a heavier opponent.  I wonder how often this was actually done.

And there is that saying, engineers will always blame procedures and soldiers (or sailors, I guess) will always blame equipment.

[gabrielle]

from the Boston Sunday Globe:

[WhiteCrow]

Good points.  One could cite lighter armor as a contributing factor.  I always thought the speed for which this sacrifice was made was intended partly to allow the ship to escape a heavier opponent.  I wonder how often this was actually done.

And there is that saying, engineers will always blame procedures and soldiers (or sailors, I guess) will always blame equipment.

There was an excellent show on PBS  a decade or so back about the vulnerable of British war ships compared to superior German designs. Sacrifice armor for speed,  cheaper to construct and the advantages of having more ships..

If remember correctly the British always had the advantage with their more ships, faster speed/less armor philosophy. But it lead to major blow ups during both World Wars..  HMS Hood WWII disaster (constructioned in 1920s) while strengthen it still wasn't enough..

Copy from Wikipedia HMS Hood:

The design was revised after the Battle of Jutland to incorporate heavier armour and all four ships were laid down. Only Hood was completed, because the ships were very expensive and required labour and material that could be put to better use building merchant ships needed to replace those lost to the German U-boat campaign.

[gabrielle]

,

[K_Dubb]

,

Cool article, Gabrielle.  From Wikipedia:

The 3rd Canadian Division was formed in France in December 1915 under the command of Major-General Malcolm Mercer. Its members served in France and Flanders until Armistice Day. While with 3rd Division at Ypres, Mercer became the highest-ranking Canadian officer killed in action during the First World War. On the same day, Brigadier V. A. Williams, commanding the 8th Infantry Brigade, became the highest-ranking Canadian officer captured in the First World War, also at the Battle of Mount Sorrel. Mercer was replaced by Louis Lipsett, who commanded the division until September 1918 shortly before he too was killed in action.

[Rix Gins]

Dick's Diary, June 4, 1916.
http://www.willisfleming.org.uk/dicksdiary/entries/1916/06/sunday-4-june-1916.html

Where Dick did his 'bathing'...

[gabrielle]

Dick's Diary, June 4, 1916.
http://www.willisfleming.org.uk/dicksdiary/entries/1916/06/sunday-4-june-1916.html

Where Dick did his 'bathing'...

Beautiful spot....I sure hope Dick makes it through what's next......(and Kitty)

[gabrielle]

Here is picture of what Mount Sorrel looked like in 1916 and a map showing the location. 

[Walks_At_Night]

There was an excellent show on PBS  a decade or so back about the vulnerable of British war ships compared to superior German designs. Sacrifice armor for speed,  cheaper to construct and the advantages of having more ships..

If remember correctly the British always had the advantage with their more ships, faster speed/less armor philosophy. But it lead to major blow ups during both World Wars..  HMS Hood WWII disaster (constructioned in 1920s) while strengthen it still wasn't enough..

Copy from Wikipedia HMS Hood:

The design was revised after the Battle of Jutland to incorporate heavier armour and all four ships were laid down. Only Hood was completed, because the ships were very expensive and required labour and material that could be put to better use building merchant ships needed to replace those lost to the German U-boat campaign.

Too bad on the other ships of the Hood class not being built.     Very nice looking lines on her:

[Walks_At_Night]

In 1916 the Monroe Motor Company was building automobiles in Pontiac, Michigan.  Billy Durant and W.F. Monroe formed the
company in 1914 during one of the times that Durant was on the outs with General Motors.   There was a cross-stockholding
arrangement between the Monroe and Chevrolet companies. 

The company would struggle along until 1918 when it went bankrupt. The William Small Company of Indianapolis would
purchase the assets of Monroe and move production to Indianapolis.    The company would exist through several gyrations
and eventually would be folded into the Premier company.

A 1917 Monroe Roadster



The old Monroe factory on Osmun Street in Pontiac still stands.    Also looks like it is available for lease   :

[Rix Gins]

Love that roadster and that building.

[Walks_At_Night]

Love that roadster and that building.

The Monroe's could move - Gaston Chevrolet [Louis kid brother] would win the 1920 Indianapolis 500 driving a modified
Monroe.  Sadly he would not live out 1920 - he would be killed in the last race of the year in November at the
Beverly Hills Speedway,

[Walks_At_Night]

Next installment of Michigan based auto makers of 1916 will be one of the giants!

[Walks_At_Night]

On June 4, 1916 the Russians would launch the Brusilov offensive on the eastern front.    It would end up
being the most successful allied offensive of the war.  With the Germans and French locked in mortal combat
at Verdun, with the British getting ready to launch a massive attack at the Somme and with the Austria-Hungarians
slugging it out with the Italians the Russians deemed the time was right to hit Austria-Hungry hard.

Leading the attack would be General Aleksey Brusilov who was about the best general the Russians had - he is
included in the list of top 7 generals of the war [all combatant inclusive] .   Brusilov would strike at the city of
Lutsk with a preparatory bombardment from 2000 artillery pieces.  This would be devastating and would wipe out
the advantage the Austrians had in men.  Within two days the 4th Austrian army simply disintegrated - it would
suffer 130,000 casualties and have 200,000 men captured. Brusilov would advance nearly 50 miles - the panicked
Austrians would pull troops from the Italian campaign and would beg the Germans for help. The Germans had no
choice but to move a number of divisions from Verdun east to shore up the Austrians collapse.

They would do so and eventually the Russians would exhaust their capabilities of supply - the offensive came to
an end in September 1916.  However by the time it was over it would  cost the Austro-Hungarian army an incredible
total of 1.5 million men (including 400,000 taken prisoner) and some 10,000 square miles of territory.  Largely
forgotten today, this offensive permanently secured more enemy territory than any other Allied offensive on any front.
It would effectively knock Austria-Hungry out of the war.

Aleksey Alekseyevich Brusilov


Russian Infantry

[Rix Gins]

Everett True, June 5, 1916.

[gabrielle]

 Here is our update on the battle of Mount Sorrel and the 3rd Canadian Division.  The Canadians have sustained many casualties, including General Williams and Major General Malcom Mercer who had been deafened by the German bombs and had sustained a head injury.  Both men had gone to Mount Sorrel on a reconnaissance mission when the attack began with a fury the Canadians had never witnessed before.

[WhiteCrow]

Too bad on the other ships of the Hood class not being built.     Very nice looking lines on her:

Yes 'she' was.. when compared to her predecessors. Much appreciate her sleek lines.. Can imagine seeing her slipping along all decked out in her finest with her low rear end and elavated front top side.

I understand the progression of submarine tactics, defensive and offensive during  the Second World War.. but hardly anything about the First .. anyone know of a good book to get me started?

[WhiteCrow]

Here is our update on the battle of Mount Sorrel and the 3rd Canadian Division.  The Canadians have sustained many casualties, including General Williams and Major General Malcom Mercer who had been deafened by the German bombs and had sustained a head injury.  Both men had gone to Mount Sorrel on a reconnaissance mission when the attack began with a fury the Canadians had never witnessed before.

Gabrielle.. do they ever list the causality figures in Canadian  newspaper?  Wondering if those articles are 'highly ' censored? 

[Rix Gins]

Dick's Diary entry for June 5, 1916.
http://www.willisfleming.org.uk/dicksdiary/entries/1916/06/monday-5-june-1916.html

[WhiteCrow]

On June 4, 1916 the Russians would launch the Brusilov offensive on the eastern front.    It would end up
being the most successful allied offensive of the war.  With the Germans and French locked in mortal combat
at Verdun, with the British getting ready to launch a massive attack at the Somme and with the Austria-Hungarians
slugging it out with the Italians the Russians deemed the time was right to hit Austria-Hungry hard.

Leading the attack would be General Aleksey Brusilov who was about the best general the Russians had - he is
included in the list of top 7 generals of the war [all combatant inclusive] .   Brusilov would strike at the city of
Lutsk with a preparatory bombardment from 2000 artillery pieces.  This would be devastating and would wipe out
the advantage the Austrians had in men.  Within two days the 4th Austrian army simply disintegrated - it would
suffer 130,000 casualties and have 200,000 men captured. Brusilov would advance nearly 50 miles - the panicked
Austrians would pull troops from the Italian campaign and would beg the Germans for help. The Germans had no
choice but to move a number of divisions from Verdun east to shore up the Austrians collapse.

They would do so and eventually the Russians would exhaust their capabilities of supply - the offensive came to
an end in September 1916.  However by the time it was over it would  cost the Austro-Hungarian army an incredible
total of 1.5 million men (including 400,000 taken prisoner) and some 10,000 square miles of territory.  Largely
forgotten today, this offensive permanently secured more enemy territory than any other Allied offensive on any front.
It would effectively knock Austria-Hungry out of the war.

Aleksey Alekseyevich Brusilov


Russian Infantry

Thanks Walks.. after reading your post , read more about the battle .. one of those truly  "turning points in history"  amazing .. both future political events and military tactics ..

[Walks_At_Night]

Yes 'she' was.. when compared to her predecessors. Much appreciate her sleek lines.. Can imagine seeing her slipping along all decked out in her finest with her low rear end and elavated front top side.

I understand the progression of submarine tactics, defensive and offensive during  the Second World War.. but hardly anything about the First .. anyone know of a good book to get me started?

Well a great book on WWI Naval stuff is Castles of Steel: Britain, Germany, and the Winning of the Great War at Sea by Robert Massie.   A book to avoid - unless you are *seriously* devoted is Jutland: An Analysis of the Fighting by John Campbell.  Of neither address submarine tactics.

http://www.amazon.com/Castles-Steel-Britain-Germany-Winning/dp/0345408780
http://www.amazon.com/Jutland-Analysis-Fighting-Maritime-Classics/dp/1558217592

[Walks_At_Night]

On June 5, 1916 Field Marshal Horatio Herbert Kitchener, 1st Earl Kitchener KG, KP, GCB, OM, GCSI, GCMG, GCIE, PC was killed when HMS Hampshire was lost.   At the time of WWI Kitchener was the British Secretary of State for War and he had correctly predicted a lengthy conflict at a time at the start of the war when most everyone else felt it would be over shortly. 

He would launch a massive recruitment campaign and his face would be placed on one of the more iconic posters of the war:


As the war dragged on, Kitchener would slowly lose favor and at the time of his death he was not
universally mourned.  One newspaper editor stated "as for the old man, he could not have done better than to have gone down, as he was a great impediment lately."

Kitchener was headed to Russia on a diplomatic mission when the Hampshire hit a mine during a force 9 storm and  sank west of the Orkney Islands.  Only 12 sailors would survive the sinking - Kitchener and his entire staff would be lost.   

[Walks_At_Night]

Babe Ruth threw a shutout 100 years ago today for the Boston Red Sox, dropping his ERA to 1.88

http://www.baseball-reference.com/boxes/CLE/CLE191606050.shtml

[gabrielle]

Dick's Diary entry for June 5, 1916.
http://www.willisfleming.org.uk/dicksdiary/entries/1916/06/monday-5-june-1916.html

Things seem way too calm where Dick is....like the calm before the storm.

[Rix Gins]

Babe Ruth threw a shutout 100 years ago today for the Boston Red Sox, dropping his ERA to 1.88

http://www.baseball-reference.com/boxes/CLE/CLE191606050.shtml

I saw that the Red Sox had won eight games in a row, a week or so previous to this shut out.  The dudes were certainly playing killer baseball. 

[Rix Gins]

Things seem way too calm where Dick is....like the calm before the storm.

I know what you mean, Gabby.  It's kind of weird how there hasn't been a single sighting of the enemy thus far.

[Rix Gins]

Soldier Martin Kaindl was a member of 7 Company, 7 Bavarian Infantry Regiment.  He was a Farmer's son from Mimmelheim, Bavaria. 

Martin was badly wounded and died on June 5, 1916.    He was 28 years old.  No location was given for Martin's death but the German Graves Office has a record of him being buried at the cemetery in Romagne sous les Cotes, France...Block 2, grave number 21. 

Martin had a brother named Josef, who was also in a Bavarian Infantry Regiment.  Josef would be killed a little over one year after his brother when a trench, or a tunnel, collapsed on him.  His memorial card will appear on this thread on June 14, 2017.