The Other Side of Midnight - Richard C. Hoagland - Live Chat Thread

[Yorkshire pud]

So, I just listened to the September 25 show about the so-called structures on Pluto.  Generally speaking I have an open mind about such things but after reviewing the images I have to come out and say that that was complete bullshit and a waste of time. I honestly don't believe how a guy that is as intelligent as Hoagland  appears to be can go from poignant, thoughtful and interesting interviews to churning  out complete crocks  of utter shit like this. There weren't any images and I repeat ANY  images, that looked like they contained anything other then mountains, rocks and other natural formations.  To sit there for two hours and suggest that these pictures contain anything more than that is an insult to his audience.  And it made all four of those guys would like complete dumbasses.  Somewhere around the beginning of the show Hoagland mentioned something about the New York Times or Washington Post etc. finally writing something favorable about him. Continuing to do shows like this Pluto one is going to nip that right in the bud.

Richard sounds like a nice guy and is probably very fascinating to talk to but these types of shows are fucking embarrassing.

That in a nutshell is Hoaglandworld. What makes it all the more fascinating is because his garbage isn't making it into scientific journals or publications in general, he throws in that it's a conspiracy against him and the 'truth'; and then follows the usual barrage about how NASA has lied, obfuscated etc etc..

[GravitySucks]

Okay Mortal Kombat is over. Now it's time for bed. Braaps! See you all on Tuesday!

Mortal Kombat? Over?  Damn.

[GravitySucks]

That in a nutshell is Hoaglandworld. What makes it all the more fascinating is because his garbage isn't making it into scientific journals or publications in general, he throws in that it's a conspiracy against him and the 'truth'; and then follows the usual barrage about how NASA has lied, obfuscated etc etc..

It's all AstroGuy's fault. He put the word out in the scientific community to move on, nothing to see here.

RCH could probably make a ton of money if he just labelled his stuff as sci-fi and took his theories to the masses with a series of graphic novels.

We'd still think he was entertaining, we just wouldn't think he was looney tunes.

[Auslandia]

I just don't get it.  Nothing about him makes me think he's dumb.  I'm starting to think its the opposite... He's smart enough to know that perpetuating this "arcology" stuff is going to pay off when he releases books or something.  He can't honestly believe all this.

[K_Dubb]

RCH could probably make a ton of money if he just labelled his stuff as sci-fi and took his theories to the masses with a series of graphic novels.

We'd still think he was entertaining, we just wouldn't think he was looney tunes.

Agreed, I think of him as science fiction and to me his schtick seems to be done with a wink and a nod.   I think it's a long-range gamble:  if they ever do find anything, he'll be a prophet.

His enthusiasm for space and sense of adventure are what keep me listening.

[Auslandia]

Agreed, I think of him as science fiction and to me his schtick seems to be done with a wink and a nod.   I think it's a long-range gamble:  if they ever do find anything, he'll be a prophet.

His enthusiasm for space and sense of adventure are what keep me listening.

Yea but 2 HOURS about complete bullshit is pretty insulting.

[expat]

Yea but 2 HOURS about complete bullshit is pretty insulting.

On 21 August 2008, on C2C-AM, he talked for four solid hours about what he called "Von Braun's Secret." That was wall-to-wall bullshit, too.

http://rationalwiki.org/wiki/Richard_C._Hoagland#Mathematical_incompetence

As for writing SciFi, his writing skills just aren't good enough. Here's a sample, from his chapter in Pluto: New Horizons for a Lost Horizon.

"This was the perfect coverâ€"in the 1950s world of perpetual Soviet pursuit of any and all technological supremacy over the Westâ€"for NASA's real, long-term covert mission: To secretly ascertain ... from NASA's inception ... the full extent of (potential) military threats (or benefits) of these long-abandoned, ancient ET derelicts ... as well as those ancient surface installations still partially preserved on various planets and moons (Cydonia et al.); the surviving riches of an entire, astonishing Type II Civilization in our own backyardâ€"whose extraordinary legacy and scientific potential was only fully accepted (even within NASA) when Apollo astronauts fulfilled their real Kennedy Mission and clandestinely returned, beginning in 1969, unquestionable intelligently-designed and manufactured ET artifacts to Earthâ€"from the Moon."

That was all one sentence.

[SaucyRossy]

Here's my take, and by my take I do mean my PERSONAL TAKE AND NOT IN ANY WAY ABOUT THE SHOW OR REPRESENTING THE SHOW.

The complete lack of imagination and willingness to think outside the box by the scientific community and some of the critics here, is a mistake on their part, to think that it's not possible for 'others' to have come before us and have left structures and the like through out the universe or even our Solar system is completely short sighted. Think about all the time the universe has been around, then think about all the signs there are for life being so massively abundant through out our universe, and ask yourself if you think we are the only intelligent life in this Universe?

If your answer is a resounding No, then why in the world would any one think it's impossible, or even improbable that there was intelligent life in OUR solar system BEFORE us. Fact is, there are some interesting sites, locations, and places that need further investigating, and the answers to almost all of these questions can't be answered until there are boots on the ground looking face to face at these places.

That's why I find it funny that people spend a majority of their free time trying to critique every single word, written or spoken, a man has said about this subject, Expat you never focus on the large questions you always attack him as a person.

EDIT: Expat does not ALWAYS attack him as a person....just sometimes

[expat]

Expat you never focus on the large questions you always attack him as a person.

False. I never attack him as a person. I criticize his writings on the basis that they contain obvious errors. I criticize his writing style because, as a professional technical author I know that it falls very far short of skilled. I criticize his methods, especially in his manipulation of his Accutron wristwatch, because they are so unconvincing as to be laughable.

But I have never criticized him as a person.

As to those larger questions you raise, I obviously agree that the question of extraterrestrial life is interesting. I don't think it's helpful to just assume that life is "massively abundant through out [sic] our universe." We don't know that. What we need is evidence, and it's tremendously unhelpful for a person with no training in any related discipline to show pictures of Pluto for two hours and proclaim that he sees that evidence. It ain't so, Rossy.

[SaucyRossy]

One more thing, a few people have posted stuff like, Richard does stuff for money or he has no ethics etc.

I am only going to address this once, and I am addressing this because I am the producer and I care deeply.

I have worked with and for some very famous people in my life, I have met a lot of very public figures, many of whom are far more well known than Richard or even Art.

Art and Richard are both the most genuine, kind, real, down to earth gentlemen, I have ever had the pleasure of working for/with/or speaking to. They are who they are, there is no on air persona and off air persona, they are the real deal.

Secondly, on OSOM we have only ever ran promos and in one rare circumstance (which Richard did as a generous favor) we ran a commercial for a start up artist business. That's not because we couldn't run commercials, or we don't have that opportunity, on the contrary, Richard and I both care more about the flow and content of the show. Right now there are only two hours for the show and to interrupt that with commercials would hurt the show not help it.

Our goal is to be listener supported through Club 19.5 so we don't even need to bother with commercials in the future, it's a lofty goal, but it's achievable. So, since I have been working for him, Richard has been all about creating the best show possible NOT about making as much money as possible, money comes from putting out a great product. So it upsets me when I see these posts because in part, they are about me, maybe they aren't intended that way, but it comes across that way.


Critic his data, his pictures, his theories all you want. Attack the man personally or say that we are unethical and that's why I feel compelled to respond. I can't speak to anything prior to my working for him, but from my time with him he has been nothing but the utmost professional and a good, kind, caring friend.

[Yorkshire pud]

Here's my take, and by my take I do mean my PERSONAL TAKE AND NOT IN ANY WAY ABOUT THE SHOW OR REPRESENTING THE SHOW.

The complete lack of imagination and willingness to think outside the box by the scientific community and some of the critics here, is a mistake on their part, to think that it's not possible for 'others' to have come before us and have left structures and the like through out the universe or even our Solar system is completely short sighted. Think about all the time the universe has been around, then think about all the signs there are for life being so massively abundant through out our universe, and ask yourself if you think we are the only intelligent life in this Universe?

If your answer is a resounding No, then why in the world would any one think it's impossible, or even improbable that there was intelligent life in OUR solar system BEFORE us. Fact is, there are some interesting sites, locations, and places that need further investigating, and the answers to almost all of these questions can't be answered until there are boots on the ground looking face to face at these places.

That's why I find it funny that people spend a majority of their free time trying to critique every single word, written or spoken, a man has said about this subject, Expat you never focus on the large questions you always attack him as a person.

Just a minute Ross. Hoagland spouts his assertions (read un scientific crap) as empirical fact. He uses mathematics in his arguments but using his own mathematics and geometry, he's wrong. He's wrong on so many levels. IF he presented his 'facts' as speculation only and not unattributed scientific fact he'd be on less shaky ground.
Take the Venus transit bullshit. The alleged 'spikes' of his garbage data gathering doesn't even coincide what he claims is happening! And he should be taken seriously?

If a real scientist (and for all the 'scientific advisor' title Noory dressed him in, he isn't a scientist) with real credentials presented the same stuff without any background hypothesis, control data, reproduction, peer revue and paper they'd be in tatters. Remember a few years ago with the two scientists who claimed they had nuclear fusion at room temperature? They were professionally pilloried.

I won't go into all his 'facts' because there are far too many and Expat is the custodian of that avenue; Astroguy has made videos and blogs about how wrong RCH is, and all Hoagland can do is ignore it or say he's an unqualified hater! He's a PhD in a space related field FFS! If he's (Hoagland) going to appeal to authority, he'd better make sure his has a bit of spine and not unqualified crap.

I've no problem with him dreaming, we all do that; but not when it's put out as real and current facts!

[Auslandia]

One more thing, a few people have posted stuff like, Richard does stuff for money or he has no ethics etc.

I am only going to address this once, and I am addressing this because I am the producer and I care deeply.

I have worked with and for some very famous people in my life, I have met a lot of very public figures, many of whom are far more well known than Richard or even Art.

Art and Richard are both the most genuine, kind, real, down to earth gentlemen, I have ever had the pleasure of working for/with/or speaking to. They are who they are, there is no on air persona and off air persona, they are the real deal.

Secondly, on OSOM we have only ever ran promos and in one rare circumstance (which Richard did as a generous favor) we ran a commercial for a start up artist business. That's not because we couldn't run commercials, or we don't have that opportunity, on the contrary, Richard and I both care more about the flow and content of the show. Right now there are only two hours for the show and to interrupt that with commercials would hurt the show not help it.

Our goal is to be listener supported through Club 19.5 so we don't even need to bother with commercials in the future, it's a lofty goal, but it's achievable. So, since I have been working for him, Richard has been all about creating the best show possible NOT about making as much money as possible, money comes from putting out a great product. So it upsets me when I see these posts because in part, they are about me, maybe they aren't intended that way, but it comes across that way.


Critic his data, his pictures, his theories all you want. Attack the man personally or say that we are unethical and that's why I feel compelled to respond. I can't speak to anything prior to my working for him, but from my time with him he has been nothing but the utmost professional and a good, kind, caring friend.

Wait a second... If anything I'm saying the guy seems intelligent.  I even called him thoughtful.  What I did was criticize this episode about "arcology" on Pluto.  I said it was bullshit.  I didn't say anything about the possibility that other civilizations came before us.  That's entirely possible.  That 2 hours on Pluto was once of the biggest crocks of shit I've heard in a long time and I felt insulted that RCH and the gang thought it was an acceptable idea.  That show was as close to the definition of jumping the shark as any I've heard in a long while.

[SaucyRossy]

Wait a second... If anything I'm saying the guy seems intelligent.  I even called him thoughtful.  What I did was criticize this episode about "arcology" on Pluto.  I said it was bullshit.  I didn't say anything about the possibility that other civilizations came before us.  That's entirely possible.  That 2 hours on Pluto was once of the biggest crocks of shit I've heard in a long time and I felt insulted that RCH and the gang thought it was an acceptable idea.  That show was as close to the definition of jumping the shark as any I've heard in a long while.

That's a completely valid constructive criticism, my post wasn't directed at you. Could do without the cursing though.

[K_Dubb]

Exploration has historically been proceeded by an anticipatory cloud of theories, rumored wonders, mysteries, most of which have turned out to be wishful thinking.  But you can argue that El Dorado, the northwest passage, and the headless men with eyes in their chests inspired exploration, and public interest in it, more than the shabby mercantile interest that followed in its wake.  Hoagie does that for space.

I'm glad to hear that uncle hoagie is exactly as he comes across on air.

[trostol]

Ross ..you and Richard are doing a great job..but to me it seems he is not going to be the voice of reason in much of the way about places ..things on Mars/Pluto..he sees what he wishes to and i have looked..stared at these photos of his til i was cross eyed and saw...well..rocks lol

the two sides of Richard are frankly quite interesting as they are night and day of each other..when he is rational Dick Cavett Richard he is an exemplary interviewer..even if perhaps he giggles a bit too much at things i think only he finds funny...and in doses bat shit Crazy Richard is entertaining...but again..in doses..Friday was a good example of it...the 2 hours on Mars stuff, which, through no fault of yours, was a bit too much Mars as of late, was just over the top crazy..but i understand the tie in..but then you had the great interview with Weir

i think the only issue people really have in the end is him stating pseudoscience as fact..other wise i believe most here enjoy the show and think you are doing a fantastic job..even without enough Cthulhu lol

[Mild Bill]

One more thing, a few people have posted stuff like, Richard does stuff for money or he has no ethics etc.

I am only going to address this once, and I am addressing this because I am the producer and I care deeply.

I have worked with and for some very famous people in my life, I have met a lot of very public figures, many of whom are far more well known than Richard or even Art.

Art and Richard are both the most genuine, kind, real, down to earth gentlemen, I have ever had the pleasure of working for/with/or speaking to. They are who they are, there is no on air persona and off air persona, they are the real deal.

Secondly, on OSOM we have only ever ran promos and in one rare circumstance (which Richard did as a generous favor) we ran a commercial for a start up artist business. That's not because we couldn't run commercials, or we don't have that opportunity, on the contrary, Richard and I both care more about the flow and content of the show. Right now there are only two hours for the show and to interrupt that with commercials would hurt the show not help it.

Our goal is to be listener supported through Club 19.5 so we don't even need to bother with commercials in the future, it's a lofty goal, but it's achievable. So, since I have been working for him, Richard has been all about creating the best show possible NOT about making as much money as possible, money comes from putting out a great product. So it upsets me when I see these posts because in part, they are about me, maybe they aren't intended that way, but it comes across that way.


Critic his data, his pictures, his theories all you want. Attack the man personally or say that we are unethical and that's why I feel compelled to respond. I can't speak to anything prior to my working for him, but from my time with him he has been nothing but the utmost professional and a good, kind, caring friend.

I've been listening since day one when he had the technical problems. As the shows progressed I became a fan and member of Bellgab because of him. We Braapers are a tight-knit group and fond of Richard. Yes, he is eccentric, but so are we, Club 19.5.

Posters on the Art Bell live show threads have written "braaps" which puzzles Art fans who don't listen to OSOM and don't know the meaning of the word.

So...for those who don't like Richard...don't listen and go braap yourself!

Ross, you're doing an excellent job as producer and we braapers appreciate it!



 

[Auslandia]

Right and I'm just saying that it's too bad he'll never be taken seriously because he's quite intelligent and has a lot to offer. 

[expat]

So...for those who don't like Richard...

Once again, it's not a question of not liking the man. He makes confident-sounding statements that are OBJECTIVELY INCORRECT. Some of us with expertise in spaceflight, astronomy and physics feel obligated to point that out.

[SaucyRossy]

More Chtuhlu soon!!!

And it's very important to make the show....broaden its scope. And you will see that happening as the next few weeks go on.

[trostol]

More Chtuhlu soon!!!

And it's very important to make the show....broaden its scope. And you will see that happening as the next few weeks go on.

i agree with that broaden thing..and you have been doing a good job of it..this week just kind of irked me due to all the Mars coverage then the night of Richard "badgering" for donations for Dave...

[K_Dubb]

I liked the Mars show.  Fell asleep to it last night.  Why the rover didn't go play in the wet sand is a pretty good f'ing question IMO. 

[trostol]

I liked the Mars show.  Fell asleep to it last night.  Why the rover didn't go play in the wet sand is a pretty good f'ing question IMO.

your avatar looks like Moss from It Crowd lol

[SaucyRossy]

Ok. I apologize to expat. Apparently he didn't personally attack rch but was quoting some one else doing it. I guess I just saw the words and didn't see the original poster.

[expat]

I liked the Mars show.  Fell asleep to it last night.  Why the rover didn't go play in the wet sand is a pretty good f'ing question IMO.

I think it's because there are no RSLs in Gale crater. The wet stuff is in Garni, Horowitz and Newton. A very long way away. And only wet in the Martian summer, not all the time.

[AppealPlay]

Ok. I apologize to expat. Apparently he didn't personally attack rch but was quoting some one else doing it. I guess I just saw the words and didn't see the original poster.

Saucy, like I've written multiple times before you shouldn't let criticism of Richard, his silly theories, or his guests affect you personally.  We all like you, buddy.

[expat]

Ok. I apologize to expat. Apparently he didn't personally attack rch but was quoting some one else doing it. I guess I just saw the words and didn't see the original poster.

Well, that was very gentlemanly of you. Accepted. Cheers.

[chefist]

It's entertainment... Scientists don't go to RCH or OSOM to peer review...I'm sure the vast majority don't even know who he is...

I wouldn't take it personally...

[SciFiAuthor]

Saucy, like I've written multiple times before you shouldn't let criticism of Richard, his silly theories, or his guests affect you personally.  We all like you, buddy.

This. Hell I like Hoagland, he can do a hell of a job as an interviewer and is actually a very cordial, nice dude in email. I'm a complete skeptic on the arcology stuff, but all I really care about is having something decent to listen to and Hoagland beats the crap out of Dave on any night.

[K_Dubb]

I think it's because there are no RSLs in Gale crater. The wet stuff is in Garni, Horowitz and Newton. A very long way away. And only wet in the Martian summer, not all the time.

The whatsupinthesky folks have what they say are Curiosity images showing possible water seeps.  I'm no expert but looks at least worth investigating.

[trostol]

This. Hell I like Hoagland, he can do a hell of a job as an interviewer and is actually a very cordial, nice dude in email. I'm a complete skeptic on the arcology stuff, but all I really care about is having something decent to listen to and Hoagland beats the crap out of Dave on any night.

silence beats Dave any night lol