Operation American Spring (OAS)!!1

[albrecht]

Let me get this straight. Cliven Bundy has been letting his cattle graze on public lands for more than 20 years. Cliven Bundy has refused to pay for his cattle grazing on public lands and at this point owes between 300,000 dollars and a million, depending on which side of the story you stand on.

It seems to me, the BLM has the right to protect the public's interest. It seems that Cliven Bundy has purposefully ignored the law because he doesn't like it, not because his freedoms were lost. This is a man that didn't want to pay for his fair use of land not owned by him.

All the rest is bullshit. If the cheap fucker paid his obligations his cattle would more than likely still be munching on tall grass.

Already the cost to harass the cattle and intimidate the ranchers in the community has cost more than $1 million when one considers the fuel, salaries, and equipment movement of the government minions sent to protect the tortoise and enforce "free speech zones" in the middle of a desert. So clearly, if the government cared about public interest and their money, they would just like the cattle range free and save the tax-payers some money. And wouldn't the increased traffic and activity (and "round up") hurt that precious tortoise even more?

It would seem that Bundy is in the wrong (at least according to the judge) I haven't seen the evidence or court papers. Maybe he does have allodial title or agreement made before Nevada or the US took over the area? I know Spanish and Mexican land-grants are still recognized legally for mining, ownership, water, etc rights (and in some case go to court over them up to this day.) But from the news I've seen he seems to be in the wrong and the court seems to agree.....so burn his family out now and kill all the cows!! Bring on the drones and snipers!

[onan]

Already the cost to harass the cattle and intimidate the ranchers in the community has cost more than $1 million when one considers the fuel, salaries, and equipment movement of the government minions sent to protect the tortoise and enforce "free speech zones" in the middle of a desert. So clearly, if the government cared about public interest and their money, they would just like the cattle range free and save the tax-payers some money. And wouldn't the increased traffic and activity (and "round up") hurt that precious tortoise even more?

It would seem that Bundy is in the wrong (at least according to the judge) I haven't seen the evidence or court papers. Maybe he does have allodial title or agreement made before Nevada or the US took over the area? I know Spanish and Mexican land-grants are still recognized legally for mining, ownership, water, etc rights (and in some case go to court over them up to this day.) But from the news I've seen he seems to be in the wrong and the court seems to agree.....so burn his family out now and kill all the cows!! Bring on the drones and snipers!

I hear ya, but it has been 20 years. Yeah things obviously have gone wrong... and it all starts with Clive.

[albrecht]

I hear ya, but it has been 20 years. Yeah things obviously have gone wrong... and it all starts with Clive.

Yeah, but like we're told as kids: it takes two people to fight. (Well unless you are attacked etc). But you get my point the escalation is the problem. And now we get the militia freaks coming in along with the militarized police force. Bad things can happen. To me, unless they are really a serious threat, we should just let the holed-up, the paranoid guy in a cabin in the woods somewhere in Idaho, or some farmer who won't pay his tax, or the Black Nationalists in their rowhouses,etc  people be and wait them out. Not bomb them, burn them out, or escalate the situations to where they, police, and kids (and bystanders) get killed.

[b_dubb]

Let me get this straight. Cliven Bundy has been letting his cattle graze on public lands for more than 20 years. Cliven Bundy has refused to pay for his cattle grazing on public lands and at this point owes between 300,000 dollars and a million, depending on which side of the story you stand on.

It seems to me, the BLM has the right to protect the public's interest. It seems that Cliven Bundy has purposefully ignored the law because he doesn't like it, not because his freedoms were lost. This is a man that didn't want to pay for his fair use of land not owned by him.

All the rest is bullshit. If the cheap fucker paid his obligations his cattle would more than likely still be munching on tall grass.

<sarcasm>
    onan ... why do you hate America?  Why do you hate the children?
</sarcasm>
I tend to agree with you.  Bundy seems to want to wrap himself up in the American flag and play the victim when it seems he's just a cheap bastard without a leg to stand on. 

[wr250]

Let me get this straight. Cliven Bundy has been letting his cattle graze on public lands for more than 20 years. Cliven Bundy has refused to pay for his cattle grazing on public lands and at this point owes between 300,000 dollars and a million, depending on which side of the story you stand on.

It seems to me, the BLM has the right to protect the public's interest. It seems that Cliven Bundy has purposefully ignored the law because he doesn't like it, not because his freedoms were lost. This is a man that didn't want to pay for his fair use of land not owned by him.

All the rest is bullshit. If the cheap fucker paid his obligations his cattle would more than likely still be munching on tall grass.

actually he has been paying clark county NV to graze his cattle there. he also claims ownership to most of the land.
the feds are cracking down hard on him and his cattle, to the point of removing watering systems for them, so they can die from dehydration. there are reports of the feds shooting some cattle as well. meanwhile some 1700 wild horses run free, doing far more damage to the turtle than bundy's  cattle. the same agency massing this show of force to round up bundy's cattle will not even go near a wild horse, citing "it would cost to much" ,like sending in a couple of choppers, a few hundred men, dump trucks, and so cost far more than hiring someone to round up the horses.

[onan]

Yeah, but like we're told as kids: it takes two people to fight. (Well unless you are attacked etc). But you get my point the escalation is the problem. And now we get the militia freaks coming in along with the militarized police force. Bad things can happen. To me, unless they are really a serious threat, we should just let the holed-up, the paranoid guy in a cabin in the woods somewhere in Idaho, or some farmer who won't pay his tax, or the Black Nationalists in their rowhouses,etc  people be and wait them out. Not bomb them, burn them out, or escalate the situations to where they, police, and kids (and bystanders) get killed.

I agree it is completely out of hand. I have no idea as to why. And I don't want any of this to become a fire fight.

Problem is though, it seems this guy has been getting the soft glove, let's-give-him-time approach and now here we are.

Sure he sounds real nice and easy going on the screen. Sure the government is the bad guy.

[onan]

actually he has been paying clark county NV to graze his cattle there. he also claims ownership to most of the land.
the feds are cracking down hard on him and his cattle, to the point of removing watering systems for them, so they can die from dehydration. there are reports of the feds shooting some cattle as well. meanwhile some 1700 wild horses run free, doing far more damage to the turtle than bundy's  cattle. the same agency massing this show of force to round up bundy's cattle will not even go near a wild horse, citing "it would cost to much" ,like sending in a couple of choppers, a few hundred men, dump trucks, and so cost far more than hiring someone to round up the horses.

Bundy stopped paying grazing fees of about $1.35 a month per cow-calf pair in 1993, ignored the government's cancellation of his leases and defied federal court orders to remove his cattle, according to the U.S. Bureau of Land Management. But it took more than 20 years for the government to forcefully intervene.

http://www.businessinsider.com/r-us-seizes-cattle-in-rare-fight-over-federal-land-use-in-nevada-2014-10

[VtaGeezer]

Already the cost to harass the cattle and intimidate the ranchers in the community has cost more than $1 million when one considers the fuel, salaries, and equipment movement of the government minions sent to protect the tortoise and enforce "free speech zones" in the middle of a desert.

I've known ranchers (and commercial fishermen) like him; they think "public" means "mine".  Greedy a-holes like him, wrapping themselves in "liberty" while spitting on responsibility are the reason why there's such heavy enforcement expenses.  They cause hassles and losses for honest ranchers, and ruin public lands for the rest of us.

[onan]

meanwhile some 1700 wild horses run free, doing far more damage to the turtle than bundy's  cattle.

If you think horses do more damage to grazing land you have never worked a ranch. Cattle eat grass to the nub, horses don't.


http://wildhorsepreservation.org/wild-horses-and-ecosystem

Cows have no upper front teeth, only a thick pad: they graze by wrapping their long tongues around grass and pulling on it. If the ground is wet, they will pull out the grass by the roots, preventing it from growing back. Horses have both upper and lower incisors and graze by "clipping the grass," similar to a lawn mower, allowing the grass to easily grow back.

In addition, the horse’s digestive system does not thoroughly degrade the vegetation it eats. As a result, it tends to “replant” its own forage with the diverse seeds that pass through its system undegraded. This unique digestive system greatly aids in the building up of the absorptive, nutrient-rich humus component of soils. This, in turn, helps the soil absorb and retain water upon which many diverse plants and animals depend. In this way, the wild horse is also of great value in reducing dry inflammable vegetation in fire-prone areas. Back in the 1950s, it was primarily out of concern over brush fires that Storey County, Nevada, passed the first wild horse protection law in the nation.

[albrecht]

If you think horses do more damage to grazing land you have never worked a ranch. Cattle eat grass to the nub, horses don't.


http://wildhorsepreservation.org/wild-horses-and-ecosystem

I recall T.Boone Picken's wife (then, they are now divorced) was on C2C about wild horse awhile back. Had grand plans for a horse preserve etc. Was very controversial because her preserve idea with BLM and her land would also cut off grazing for cattle. I was suspicious at the time because ol' T.Boone also was big into wind-farm and buying up land all over the place (and, guess what, gaining lots of acreage of aquifers and natural gas production!) I suspected her having ulterior motives but I guess maybe she is legit because her foundation still exists even post-divorce.

Thing about the wild horses is 1) they are not indigenous to North America but descendents from Spanish and later our horses 2) if not culled, sold, or birth controlled will over-populate. That is why BLM causes so much controversy with their operations against them. So BLM can't win: ranchers complain, rich environmentalists complain, logging companies complain, etc. Only people who seems arguably happy with their management are mining and natural gas producers and even they bitch often.

[onan]

I recall T.Boone Picken's wife (then, they are now divorced) was on C2C about wild horse awhile back. Had grand plans for a horse preserve etc. Was very controversial because her preserve idea with BLM and her land would also cut off grazing for cattle. I was suspicious at the time because ol' T.Boone also was big into wind-farm and buying up land all over the place (and, guess what, gaining lots of acreage of aquifers and natural gas production!) I suspected her having ulterior motives but I guess maybe she is legit because her foundation still exists even post-divorce.

Thing about the wild horses is 1) they are not indigenous to North America but descendents from Spanish and later our horses 2) if not culled, sold, or birth controlled will over-populate. That is why BLM causes so much controversy with their operations against them. So BLM can't win: ranchers complain, rich environmentalists complain, logging companies complain, etc. Only people who seems arguably happy with their management are mining and natural gas producers and even they bitch often.

I am not familiar with this T Boone, will be doing some reading.

As to indigenous horses... not a one of the current species are indigenous to the Americas. There was a prehistoric horse in the Americas but they died out more than 10,000 years ago... due to Obama care.

[wr250]

Bundy stopped paying grazing fees of about $1.35 a month per cow-calf pair in 1993, ignored the government's cancellation of his leases and defied federal court orders to remove his cattle, according to the U.S. Bureau of Land Management. But it took more than 20 years for the government to forcefully intervene.

http://www.businessinsider.com/r-us-seizes-cattle-in-rare-fight-over-federal-land-use-in-nevada-2014-10

and he claims that most of  property in question belongs to him and has been in his family since the 1880's. the rest is supposedly county land, thus the payment to clark county ,nv.

the whole thing started when a environ-mental group filed suit to protect the desert tortoise. ironically the horses are allowed to roam unmolested and unmonitored due to "monetary concerns"  (to its credit the BLM did attempt to round them up once, once to be blocked in court by these same environ-mentalists). he claims that the federal govt is trespassing on his property.
but if it goes like the tortoise fight here did, those that refused to sell to the federal govt got eminent domained, then booted off their land to make room for the red cliffs desert reserve (google it). that area is now fenced off and there is NO mechanized/motorized access (in violation of various laws btw, but no one cares about the wheel chair bound, and yes there are offload capable wheelchairs), with the single exception of utilities (water,power and gas lines).
and this is why i tend to side with bundy.
in addition someone (who was not identified as far as i know) was arrested for "protesting outside a 1st amendment zone" . wtf is that? we should be able to protest peacefully anywhere we wish , as long as the police are not interfered with doing their job (which would then NOT be peaceful), or jeopardizing someones safety (your right to protest ends as soon as someone elses rights are violated).

[albrecht]

I am not familiar with this T Boone, will be doing some reading.

As to indigenous horses... not a one of the current species are indigenous to the Americas. There was a prehistoric horse in the Americas but they died out more than 10,000 years ago... due to Obama care.

No doubt they died out due to the "death panels". Too bad Billy Jack wasn't around to rescue them.

T.Boone Pickens is a pretty famous. Really famous in the 80's with his leverage buyouts and "share-holder value" attacks on Big Oil companies. Took his small company into a huge one. Famously tried to buy out Gulf Oil, Unocal, Philips Petroleum, etc. Now is primarily an investor and holds a lot of stocks in various companies. Big into wind and natural gas also. And is rumored to be trying to buy up the aquifers and he sees water as the next big thing. Colorful and interesting guy. Paid for the infamous "Swiftboat" ads though also lobbys for not allowing horse slaughter.

[onan]

in addition someone (who was not identified as far as i know) was arrested for "protesting outside a 1st amendment zone" . wtf is that? we should be able to protest peacefully anywhere we wish , as long as the police are not interfered with doing their job (which would then NOT be peaceful), or jeopardizing someones safety (your right to protest ends as soon as someone elses rights are violated).

this the part of the story that pisses me off, but is also bullshit. I saw no protests of any magnitude during the last three presidential elections. Actually starting in 1988 in Atlanta, IIRC.

All of a sudden now it is worthy of bringing a militia mentality... just to keep things calm, I guess.

Sorry not going with Clive on this one.

[Zoo]

I saw no protests of any magnitude during the last three presidential elections. Actually starting in 1988 in Atlanta, IIRC.
All of a sudden now it is worthy of bringing a militia mentality

I think the internet has something to do with it. Once people saw people protesting on sites like YouTube and others they knew they were not alone. Their were people out there just like them, felt like them, and wanted to do something like them. The internet brings out things from behind closed doors and into public view. People are starting to see what is really going on.


It is the job of every American to stand against a Government that no longer cares about its people. We spend more money on war than anything else in this country is that what you want!!1