Socialist thread

[wr250]

Dan TSX-

Have any facts to share just uneducated right wing lies and other assorted bullshit.  Mother fucker.

how about the fact that many businesses operate on a 5% net profit margin (sometimes less). increasing workers wages means increasing prices. so the worker may get a say 10% raise, what good is it if the cost of goods goes up 10%? not only that but due to govt regs (on all levels) in many places doubles the workers wage from the employers prospective. so if an employer pays a worker  $10, they have to pay nearly that again to the feds and state govt in the form of payroll taxes , local(county city and in some cases town)taxes of varying kinds. thats (up to) 5 layers of taxes on an employee. that doesnt include other fees that  are charges (business licence, etc).

how about instead of burdening employers more, cut waste in govt (on all levels) and reduce these taxes, then hand those over to the employees? many employers would certainly go for that.

[onan]

how about the fact that many businesses operate on a 5% net profit margin (sometimes less). increasing workers wages means increasing prices. so the worker may get a say 10% raise, what good is it if the cost of goods goes up 10%? not only that but due to govt regs (on all levels) in many places doubles the workers wage from the employers prospective. so if an employer pays a worker  $10, they have to pay nearly that again to the feds and state govt in the form of payroll taxes , local(county city and in some cases town)taxes of varying kinds. thats (up to) 5 layers of taxes on an employee. that doesnt include other fees that  are charges (business licence, etc).

how about instead of burdening employers more, cut waste in govt (on all levels) and reduce these taxes, then hand those over to the employees? many employers would certainly go for that.

Because employers get to pay low wages and in doing so keep those that work for those low wages on supplementary support via state and federal programs. In essence the strategy that Walmart invented now many other employers do the same if they haven't been for a long time. And contrary to what is touted, that the fast food industry is just a stepping stone to better employment doesn't pan out if you look at the statistics. I suppose those that continue to work in fast food could be considered losers... I have seen that argument on this forum.

Macdonalds has been used as an example of how increasing the cost of a big mac by 68 cents would afford a doubling of the  average worker's income. And that statement has many crying about the undue burden on Macdonalds. Macdonalds made 1.5 billion in profits in the third quarter of this year. Share holders got more than a 24% increase in their dividends. But a raise would be Macdonalds undoing.

[wr250]

Because employers get to pay low wages and in doing so keep those that work for those low wages on supplementary support via state and federal programs. In essence the strategy that Walmart invented now many other employers do the same if they haven't been for a long time. And contrary to what is touted, that the fast food industry is just a stepping stone to better employment doesn't pan out if you look at the statistics. I suppose those that continue to work in fast food could be considered losers... I have seen that argument on this forum.

Macdonalds has been used as an example of how increasing the cost of a big mac by 68 cents would afford a doubling of the  average worker's income. And that statement has many crying about the undue burden on Macdonalds. Macdonalds made 1.5 billion in profits in the third quarter of this year. Share holders got more than a 24% increase in their dividends. But a raise would be Macdonalds undoing.

perhaps that is true on big corps with 1000's of workers (such as the above mcd's and walmart).  but what about small businesses (less than say, 50 employees)? the small business could then pay employees more (and less risk of being hired away) , and drop prices to be more competitive with the walmarts of the world. please note that most large corps brib... errr  "contribute campaign donations (with assorted non cash perks)" to all state/federal campaigns for office. most times contributing equally to both demoncrats and republicons. this is to prevent any state/federal intervention in their affairs (they dont care about most taxes because they shelter their cash flow from that anyways ie dont pay taxes , such as GE (no taxes paid on  a 8 billion $ profit) google (allegedly sheltered  36 billion $ offshore so no us taxes paid on that) and so on.
[/rant]

[DanTSX]

Dan TSX-

Have any facts to share just uneducated right wing lies and other assorted bullshit.  Mother fucker.

Why don't you show me where socialism has actually built a society and then we can talk about all the facts that will likely not be in your favor.

If you hate the market system so much, give Cuba a shot.  Beautiful this time of year.  Don't let us slow you down.

[DanTSX]

perhaps that is true on big corps with 1000's of workers (such as the above mcd's and walmart).  but what about small businesses (less than say, 50 employees)? the small business could then pay employees more (and less risk of being hired away) , and drop prices to be more competitive with the walmarts of the world. please note that most large corps brib... errr  "contribute campaign donations (with assorted non cash perks)" to all state/federal campaigns for office. most times contributing equally to both demoncrats and republicons. this is to prevent any state/federal intervention in their affairs (they dont care about most taxes because they shelter their cash flow from that anyways ie dont pay taxes , such as GE (no taxes paid on  a 8 billion $ profit) google (allegedly sheltered  36 billion $ offshore so no us taxes paid on that) and so on.
[/rant]

Taxes are a drag on the economy.

Those $8B profits were being used and invested.  Providing capital for the economy instead
Of disappearing down a tax black hole.

[wr250]

Taxes are a drag on the economy.

i agree

Those $8B profits were being used and invested.  Providing capital for the economy instead
Of disappearing down a tax black hole.

perhaps, perhaps they (in part at least)  ended up as "campaign contributions" . i am not privy to their records to know for sure.

[Yorkshire pud]

I'm not sure union membership equates to socialism.  Trade union organizer Lech Walesa and Solidarity played the major role in the downfall of Poland's Soviet aligned government.

It's what I tried to tell you PB eons ago; Soviet Union wasn't socialist. Mr Welesa however was, it's why he very bravely did what he did (It should be added of course not alone), and of course later became Poland's leader.

Doesn't it seem strange that the further Left a government is, the less likely independent unions are allowed?  There were no free trade unions in the USSR or the East Bloc, none in places like Cuba, N. Korea, China.  Just phony government controlled ones, if that.

Hmmm, yeah, so what might that be telling us? On one hand you have unions with their origins in the solidarity of manual labour and attempting to get a living wage for their fellow workers, and on the other; totalitarian regimes who pay lip service to socialist ideals. So maybe not so social after all?

For the US in 2012, 7.3 million public sector employees belonged to a union, and 7.0 million private sector employees belonged to a union.  The union membership rate in the public sector workers was 35.9%, and for private sector workers it was 6.6%.  6.6%!  Are private sector unions dying out?  Did union demands play a part in our factories being shut down and our jobs exported?

Probably not, because union membership has been on the decline for decades and the conglomerates have still exported jobs to cheap places in the far east where there is no union representation for workers who don't have a living wage, and work under horrendous working conditions in dangerous places that would be condemned in the west; because unions in the past have forced factory owners to raise said standards..

It seemed strange to me working conditions in the public sector were so bad it required union representation.  Then I realized the reason public employees are unionized is so unions can deliver voting blocs to the highest bidder.  It's a corrupt rip off of the taxpayers, who have no say in public sector union contracts but end up picking up the tab.

Really? So those in the public sector don't pay taxes? That's new. Similarly the ones who have offshore tax haven accounts who don't pay tax to the respective countries aren't subsidised by those who do pay tax? Oh yeah, actually they are.

[Yorkshire pud]

Taxes are a drag on the economy.

Agreed; but I pay mine, so why shouldn't a huge company pay theirs?

Those $8B profits were being used and invested.  Providing capital for the economy instead

You really believe that shit? Oh well.

Of disappearing down a tax black hole.

Or paying off the deficit that the bankers who also didn't pay tax generated, because our respective governments had to carry the can.

[Quick Karl]

I'm really tempted to find a few UK-centric political/social forums/topics and start offering my expert opinions on how they ought to be running their country, and make sure I subtly and not-so-subtly belittle anyone that challenges my perfectness, and suggest that any political and/or social philosophy that doesn't blindly acquiesce, absolutely, with mine own, is based in hatred and stupidity -- but the truth is, I really don't give a flying fuck what they do.

Nevertheless, it might be fun to do it, just for the fuck of it...

Just sayin'.

[Yorkshire pud]

I'm really tempted to find a few UK-centric political/social forums/topics and start offering my expert opinions on how they ought to be running their country, and make sure I subtly and not-so-subtly belittle anyone that challenges my perfectness, and suggest that any political and/or social philosophy that doesn't blindly acquiesce, absolutely, with mine own, is based in hatred and stupidity -- but the truth is, I really don't give a flying fuck what they do.

Nevertheless, it might be fun to do it, just for the fuck of it...

Just sayin'.

Where has America been mentioned?

Just askin..

[Quick Karl]

Where has America been mentioned?

Just askin..

America seems to be the sole remaining country in which the political battle between liberty and socialism is being fought, so it's not really too much of a leap to catch the innuendo.

What boggles my mind most is that no one seems able to provide a single example of socialism, succeeding for the poor-working-man that it is sold as being the panacea for  - except for a few aboriginal tribes in the Amazon Rain Forrest, who are being killed and run off their lands, by Socialist South American governments...

[Yorkshire pud]

America seems to be the sole remaining country in which the political battle between liberty and socialism is being fought, so it's not really too much of a leap to catch the innuendo.

What boggles my mind most is that no one seems able to provide a single example of socialism, succeeding for the poor-working-man that it is sold as being the panacea for  - except for a few aboriginal tribes in the Amazon Rain Forrest, who are being killed and run off their lands, by Socialist South American governments...

That's because there isn't one. The reason being that it hasn't been practiced; what has been practiced has been a mish mash of cherry picking bits and pieces dressed up as socialism but is really the elite few and everyone else living in poverty. That isn't socialism, it's a totalitarian dictatorship. Of course it works for the west because they quote the leaders of said pseudo socialist states and say; "Look that's what socialism really is, the leaders say so"...the people know no different and if they do they get banished to prison or executed for speaking out.

While this abject fear carries on the leaders don't give a shit what anyone thinks, domestic or abroad; in fact it helps their cause "See, the imperialistic west would destroy our socialist ideals, we must fight them comrades (When we say we, we do of course mean you), but that's the same as the imperialists, as their leaders don't send their kids to war"...and the merry dance carries on.

You think tribes get hoofed off their lands only in South America? And then because it's a 'socialist government'? The logging companies drive the tribes off, because of capitalist reasons, the government simply get bribed to allow them to do it.

[Quick Karl]

You think tribes get hoofed off their lands only in South America? And then because it's a 'socialist government'? The logging companies drive the tribes off, because of capitalist reasons, the government simply get bribed to allow them to do it.

Hmmm... maybe we should outlaw companies...

[Quick Karl]

An extremely bright, and extremely beautiful, 18-year old girl I have the honor of being friends with, once said when asked her thoughts on Socialism:

I already tried Socialism once - when I was 2-years old I thought I was entitled to everything, and I screamed and cried when I didn't get my way.

Cracked me up good!

[DanTSX]

Agreed; but I pay mine, so why shouldn't a huge company pay theirs?

You really believe that shit? Oh well.

Or paying off the deficit that the bankers who also didn't pay tax generated, because our respective governments had to carry the can.

The government had to issue that debt instrument( the dollar) before GE could make it.....

[someguy]

An extremely bright, and extremely beautiful, 18-year old girl I have the honor of being friends with, once said when asked her thoughts on Socialism:

I already tried Socialism once - when I was 2-years old I thought I was entitled to everything, and I screamed and cried when I didn't get my way.

Cracked me up good!

This never happened.

[Quick Karl]

This never happened.

This did happen - you're reaction to it is proof of it's validity.

[Quick Karl]

***your***

That "modify" feature needs to be available a little longer - so that people can correct hasty typing errors.

[thexfile]

Don't forget this little Socialist. Maybe Cons can nail this one to a cross?

[DanTSX]

Don't forget this little Socialist. Maybe Cons can nail this one to a cross?

Oh like this wasn't addressed before.....

And to a forum full of atheists who think it is clever to try to make this point as if it has something to do with the current socialist failures like Cuba, North Korea, or even the slave labor economy of China......

Socialism / Communism might work with a bunch of isolated weirdos in a cult, but as a large society with real needs and infrastructure?  Time to grow up.  Just like Christianity outgrew it.

[McPhallus]

We're the people who change the oil in your BMW. Hell yeah!

Fine, but I'd rather be the guy in the BMW.

[DanTSX]

Fine, but I'd rather be the guy in the BMW.

My buddy was a BMW mechanic at 23.  He was making $75k/yr without working weekends and a  40 hour work week after 9 months on the job.

Now he works for himself and does even better.

Fuck socialism.  Everyone in Trabants.

[Sambo]

The economy is socialist in essence. You just don't see it because of the monopolies and cartels

[DanTSX]

The economy is socialist in essence. You just don't see it because of the monopolies and cartels

If one considers the Government as the largest consumer, then there is competition between government and all other consumers.  The organizational model you point out has some comparable features, but is still flawed. 

[Sambo]

I've heard that the economy can and will survive without the need for a merit based credit system. That we simply steer it or enslave populations in to a meritocracy because we haven't adapted to marry the resiliency of humanity and progress with the resilience economics are capable of.

There's a term in economics called resilient dynamism, and I think that is the first term to accurate describe things to come. This marriage that an idealist or anti-idealist would erroneously brand as socialism. It's simply the best way to survive, and we haven't worked it out or accepted it yet.

[Sambo]

http://www.nytimes.com/2013/11/17/magazine/switzerlands-proposal-to-pay-people-for-being-alive.html

[DanTSX]

I've heard that the economy can and will survive without the need for a merit based credit system. That we simply steer it or enslave populations in to a meritocracy because we haven't adapted to marry the resiliency of humanity and progress with the resilience economics are capable of.

There's a term in economics called resilient dynamism, and I think that is the first term to accurate describe things to come. This marriage that an idealist or anti-idealist would erroneously brand as socialism. It's simply the best way to survive, and we haven't worked it out or accepted it yet.

It is based on consumption, not merit.

[Yorkshire pud]

An extremely bright, and extremely beautiful, 18-year old girl I have the honor of being friends with, once said when asked her thoughts on Socialism:

I already tried Socialism once - when I was 2-years old I thought I was entitled to everything, and I screamed and cried when I didn't get my way.

Cracked me up good!

You always derive your wisdom from 18 year old girls who made their mind up at aged 2? Interesting philosophy. Most kids at 18 think they know everything. It's only when you reach 30 something you realise you don't know as much as you thought you knew at 18.

What has looks got to do with world knowledge anyway? At 18 I doubt greatly she's been outside the USA, so anything she knows, she's learned from people like you who have a biased and inaccurate view of the world.

[tertiaryimam]

I think Socialism is too nebulous a term.

Be more specific: do you mean Soviet-style Socialism? National socialism? Fabian Socialism? Or what the fuck?

What political theoreticians are you reading and putting your support behind? What countries do you think are ran well?

Name names.

[Yorkshire pud]

Hmmm... maybe we should outlaw companies...

I have a better idea; what about protecting indigenous tribes from companies who rape their land?