Random Political Thoughts

[Marc.Knight]

That's curious - I thought most Western society was based on Judeo-Christian philosophy, regardless of religion. Where do your moral philosophies come from?

[West of the Rockies]

You could do worse....

[PB the Deplorable]

Funny that; because I've several times had to refute that I'm not sympathetic to (insert any dictator throughout the ages, as far back as Roman times). But no matter how many times that I refute I'm not in fact in favour of a multitude of heinous sympathies that don't 'fit' in a wholesome and Utopian model of perfection, or point out that the UK hasn't now or ever had a communist/Marxist society or that liberal and Marxist are not the same thing, I still find I field the very thing you say isn't needed.

This is not exactly correct.  I don't recall you ever being accused of being sympathetic any dictator, or anyone saying The UK is a Marxist socity.  Did I miss all those posts?

What you have done repeatedly is insisted Obama is a Right-winger, and Stalin's Russia and Mao's China - among other similar places - were 'right wing' dictatorships.   

You also take modern day political labels such as 'Liberal' and say anyone claiming the term is aligned with the dictionary definition of the word.

When you continue on like this, you are going to see astonished posters contradict you.

[Yorkshire pud]

This is not exactly correct.  I don't recall you ever being accused of being sympathetic any dictator, or anyone saying The UK is a Marxist socity.  Did I miss all those posts?

What you have done repeatedly is insisted Obama is a Right-winger, and Stalin's Russia and Mao's China - among other similar places - were 'right wing' dictatorships.   

You also take modern day political labels such as 'Liberal' and say anyone claiming the term is aligned with the dictionary definition of the word.

When you continue on like this, you are going to see astonished posters contradict you.

I can't be held to account for your dogma that you use to cram a square peg into a round hole. If you really believe that Stalin was a real communist and not a totalitarian fascist dictator, then I'm not going to change your mind. Put another way: if you had grown up in the Stalin era, I wonder how 'comrade' you'd have been with him, on an equal footing.

It's the same with liberal. It's a word you use to effect whatever political view you don't agree with, it doesn't make you right, but you can hang it on a hook and call it 'liberal'.. And yes, Obama compared with ANY European political regime (with the possible exception of Uzbekistan) and many far eastern ones, is a right winger.

[Yorkshire pud]

That's curious - I thought most Western society was based on Judeo-Christian philosophy, regardless of religion. Where do your moral philosophies come from?

I knew I'd be asked that. 


I grew up going to sunday school, but didn't like it; I despised the indoctrination. Even as a child I saw it for what it was. I've always asked the question through life of anything: "Yes, but what are you not telling me; what are you hiding?"

I'm also very intuitive; far too much sometimes; often a blight in my life. If there's a choice between gut feeling and the plain as day obvious to anyone with all five senses, I'll go with my gut. And far too often I'm right, and often it's a painful reality. An example has been knowing I was being cheated on, when all evidence said otherwise, everyone who knew us both said it was impossible..Guess what? The knots weren't there for nothing.

I think my 'guide' through life is thus; I give everyone a fair crack, often repeatedly. I'm patient with people who wish to know things; I've been involved in training in various fields over the years and I will willingly go over and over until it goes in. However I don't suffer fools, I despise those who try to insult my intelligence; I'll help anyone in need. Not 'There there, lets have a cuppa'. But I'd drive across the country to try and put things right. I've lent money knowing I've no hope of getting it repaid, because they're not ever going to be in a position to do so. I'm a impatient with the willingly lazy, or the the parents of the un-educated. It depresses me that most children in the west are able to be taught most things, yet their own parents can't be arsed to do something as simple, such as pick up a book and read a bed time story, or engage them in activities beyond buying the next Xbox game.

I despise religious indoctrination of any sort, with (as has been alluded to already) the exception of the philosophy of Buddhism, which isn't really a religion. Religion is a breeding ground for appalling hypocrisy, cruelty and  subjugation and all in the name of their 'god'.  I have read a little of paganism; ironically it's festivals have been lifted by western religions for their own, and then denounce paganism as sacrificing virgins and making incantations to the devil! I have little time for almost all politicians, whatever their leanings. I know that's seen as defeatist by some, but in my several decades on this planet, I've yet to see one in this country who really prostrates themselves to the service of the people who put them there-I'm probably being unfair as any political commentator will tell you; There are many good ones who do a lot of hard work on behalf of the constituents. As I've said previously, the one politician who I absolutely do admire on many levels is Aung San Suu Kyi; if you don't know of her, her story is an inspiration to all.

What else? Despise the so called 'celebrity culture'.. Absolutely. Sure be an entertainer, but why should you be celebrated? What have you done to make the world pause and grow? Posing for photos outside nightclubs or being videoed 24/7 doesn't cut it. Engineers, Scientists, medics, great artists, pioneers, great teachers and philosophers, unsung heroes that never get a mention, who work their asses off for others, often voluntarily, they're the ones to be celebrated.

That is my 'religion'.

[Quick Karl]

I think everyone has an innate comprehension of what is right and wrong for themselves, and more importantly, for the society in which they live.

After that it is just a matter of lying and trying to find cool sounding arguments to hide the fact.

[Juan]

What difference does it make if Stalin, Hitler and Mao were Communists or Fascists?  They were murdering dictators, and that's what's important.

[Yorkshire pud]

What difference does it make if Stalin, Hitler and Mao were Communists or Fascists?  They were murdering dictators, and that's what's important.

Yes indeed.

[PB the Deplorable]

What difference does it make if Stalin, Hitler and Mao were Communists or Fascists?  They were murdering dictators, and that's what's important.

Because when the next one comes along, we will be able to spot it early.  How many times after Lenin and Trotsky over through the Russian government did various nations fall for someone else coming along with the very same or similar ideology?  What if people had been paying attention and the world could have avoided Hitler, Mao, Pol Pot, Castro, the various Marxist rebels, and all the rest.

One poster here considers Marx, Alinsky, et al, to be old news and irrelevant.  Without understanding them and recognizing their ideas and practices right in front of him.  Without that information, he thinks Occupy is great.

Without an understanding of Marx and Alinsky and the others, a majority of the voters in 2008 did not recognize Obama for what his is. 

That's why.

[Yorkshire pud]

Because when the next one comes along, we will be able to spot it early. 

And do what, exactly? Remind them you're not going to stand for it? I'm no historian, but the likes of Stalin, Hitler, Genghis Khan, Alexander the Great etc, weren't pre-disposed to negotiation or decent.. But I'm sure you'll give it your all..

[Yorkshire pud]

Without an understanding of Marx and Alinsky and the others, a majority of the voters in 2008 did not recognize Obama for what his is. 

That's why.

How incredibly patronising! Might it be they voted for Obama because they'd just lost their job, house, and everything they'd worked their arses off to buy, for it to be taken from them because some suit in a bank ticked a box and made a few million for themselves in the process, overseen by a government that let it happen? Or maybe they were sick of having a couple of wars declared in their name based on lies and deceit, that by happy coincidence made friends and acquaintances of the Bush administration very very rich, whilst a few thousend miles away, tens of thousends of innocent people were killed and face years of birth defects in their offspring? Perhaps, just perhaps they'd have voted for anyone who didn't represent the previous 8 years? Naaa, it's cos they hadn't read up on Marx!  :

Jeeze, you take bizarre reasoning to new levels.

[PB the Deplorable]

And do what, exactly? Remind them you're not going to stand for it? I'm no historian, but the likes of Stalin, Hitler, Genghis Khan, Alexander the Great etc, weren't pre-disposed to negotiation or decent.. But I'm sure you'll give it your all..

From your post I'm not sure if you are aware of this, but we choose our leaders now, at least here in the US.

So I'm not too worried about the Mongols or Alexander the Great showing up here one day.  But if the people that vote were a little bit better informed, Barack Obama would be running the local Marxist bookstore in some alley somewhere instead of wrecking our country.

[Yorkshire pud]

From your post I'm not sure if you are aware of this, but we choose our leaders now, at least here in the US.

So I'm not too worried about the Mongols or Alexander the Great showing up here one day.  But if the people that vote were a little bit better informed, Barack Obama would be running the local Marxist bookstore in some alley somewhere instead of wrecking our country.

The same could be said of Bush; If people had been better informed, they'd have realised he was a fuckwit who bowed to the wants and desires of those wanting a conflict to make lots of money from.. and succeeded.

A well known 'stateist'..

In November 1969, the Enfield 8000 was shown off at the first ever international symposium on electric vehicles, held in Phoenix, Arizona, where it caught the eye of Ronald Reagan, then Governor of California.
We used to get irate phone calls from gas station owners across the States yelling 'You're putting me out of business!'”

Sir John Samuel:
"We took a truck across America with two Enfields on the back," says Sir John Samuel, who was leading the delegation. "Some people just looked at them and laughed, but Ronnie Reagan was astounded, and he said, 'Why can't we do this here?'"

Governor Reagan offered to find a factory site in California, promising healthy subsidies and guaranteed orders. He even suggested giving the cars to all home-buyers on the island of Santa Catalina off the California coast, where the use of petrol-driven vehicles was - and still is - heavily restricted.

http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/magazine-25117784

[Yorkshire pud]

From your post I'm not sure if you are aware of this, but we choose our leaders now, at least here in the US.

Hitler was elected.

So I'm not too worried about the Mongols or Alexander the Great showing up here one day.  But if the people that vote were a little bit better informed, Barack Obama would be running the local Marxist bookstore in some alley somewhere instead of wrecking our country.

Obama isn't a Marxist though.. small point but worth pointing out.

[PB the Deplorable]

How incredibly patronising! Might it be they voted for Obama because they'd just lost their job, house, and everything they'd worked their arses off to buy, for it to be taken from them because some suit in a bank ticked a box and made a few million for themselves in the process, overseen by a government that let it happen? Or maybe they were sick of having a couple of wars declared in their name based on lies and deceit, that by happy coincidence made friends and acquaintances of the Bush administration very very rich, whilst a few thousend miles away, tens of thousends of innocent people were killed and face years of birth defects in their offspring? Perhaps, just perhaps they'd have voted for anyone who didn't represent the previous 8 years? Naaa, it's cos they hadn't read up on Marx!  :

Jeeze, you take bizarre reasoning to new levels.

Anyone who took the time to inform themselves before the election of 2008 knew Obama had no record of ever doing anything to improve the economy. 

Anyone who was paying any attention at all during the first term knew Obama still had no record of doing anything to improve the economy by the time the 2012 election came around.  Anyone paying attention knew his policies are destructive towards the economy and towards job creation.

So I stand by my claim that informed voters were not voting for him due to the economy.


As far as educating ourselves about politics in general and candidates in particular, I'm not going to bother going over the details for you again, but this is a person who chose a 60s domestic terrorist bomber (Bill Ayres), and the minister of a racist Marxist, America-hating 'church', as mentors (Rev Wright).  He clawed his way to the top of arguably the most corrupt political machine in the country.  His fellow Dailey Machine politicians are also among the most far Left extremist politicians in the country.  He had no lifetime accomplishments inside or outside politics. 

His sloganeering was heavily based on messages straight out of Marx and Alinsky, if one was listening and familiar with such things.  Like I said, more people need to be up to speed on this stuff so that we don't get people like Obama in office. 


For you to infer the electorate was informed and understood they were voting for this is silly.

[Yorkshire pud]

As far as educating ourselves about politics in general and candidates in particular, I'm not going to bother going over the details for you again, but this is a person who chose a 60s domestic terrorist bomber (Bill Ayres), and the minister of a racist Marxist, America-hating 'church', as mentors (Rev Wright).  He clawed his way to the top of arguably the most corrupt political machine in the country.  His fellow Dailey Machine politicians are also among the most far Left extremist politicians in the country.  He had no lifetime accomplishments inside or outside politics. 

His sloganeering was heavily based on messages straight out of Marx and Alinsky, if one was listening and familiar with such things.  Like I said, more people need to be up to speed on this stuff so that we don't get people like Obama in office. 


For you to infer the electorate was informed and understood they were voting for this is silly.

No; I said I could see what the electorate was voting against. Namely any association with the previous administration. Very few politicians of any kind get voted in; 9/10 the outgoing is voted out.

And as for righting the economy! I said to my colleagues back in 2007 that the slump and it's knock on effects would last at least the next ten years (Before our current government was voted in, in 2009), and most said I was just being pessimistic; How I wish I'd been wrong! No-one was going to get anything but a poisoned chalice and have the previous incumbents overlooked, because thankfully the electorate (and opposition) have short memories, and overlook the eight or so years prior to the implosion. So Obama wasn't going to right your economy in four or eight years; not going to happen, he had too big a turd to polish.

[PB the Deplorable]

Hitler was elected...

That's right.  And if people had been better informed he wouldn't have been.  Which is precisely my point.

The same could be said of Bush...

Absolutely.  We have been presented with two lousy choices in each Presidential election for decades now.  Yet there have been acceptable candidates in the Primaries.  And if better candidates had been demanded, others would have been encouraged to run.  We clearly need a more informed electorate.

... Obama isn't a Marxist though.. small point but worth pointing out.

Oh sure he is. 

He knows the overwhelming majority of Americans are not.  That is why he hides it.  Why make an announcement?  Why make a statement confessing to it?  It would just create an uproar and he would gain nothing from it.

Same thing with guns.  The ignorant like to smugly say 'Obama isn't after your guns, he hasn't taken them'.  Well of course not.  He is aware a large majority of Americans are in favor of gun ownership, so he hasn't overtly set out to grab them.  It's not that he and the 'Progressives' don't want to, it's that they know the time isn't right. 

This is Politics 101, yet people seem baffled by it.

[PB the Deplorable]

... And as for righting the economy! I said to my colleagues back in 2007 that the slump and it's knock on effects would last at least the next ten years (Before our current government was voted in, in 2009), and most said I was just being pessimistic; How I wish I'd been wrong! No-one was going to get anything but a poisoned chalice and have the previous incumbents overlooked, because thankfully the electorate (and opposition) have short memories, and overlook the eight or so years prior to the implosion. So Obama wasn't going to right your economy in four or eight years; not going to happen, he had too big a turd to polish.

We are going to have to disagree, too bad there is no real way of proving it.

I contend if there had been no bailouts, things would have sorted themselves out quicker.  Let failed businesses fail.  Let entities that issued bonds fail.  Let the shareholders, creditors, and bondholders take the losses - they are happy enough to take the profits.

Real assets don't disappear, they just get new owners.  All that stimulus money that was wasted, and is still being wasted could have gone to cover unemployment instead(so people wouldn't have been wiped out, lost their homes, etc) - that would have been far far cheaper than what did happen and is still happening.

They should have prosecuted the top managers at the investment banks - among others - instead of bringing them into the Administration at Treasury and the Fed

It would have all have been behind us by now, or close to it


Instead, the worst is yet to come.  We are years further along in building up a massive National Debt.  Plus the debt at the state and local level.  We are years further along with Federal and state and local pensions not being addressed, the coming shortages in Social Security and Medicare not being addressed, the annual deficits not being addressed.  We have been creating a massive amount of new money every month for 5 years now.  All of this is highly inflationary.

Because of this, we will have a catastrophe in the not too distant future.  What was done in response to the 2008 meltdown will be the cause of something much worse. 

[Lunger]

How incredibly patronising! Might it be they voted for Obama because they'd just lost their job, house, and everything they'd worked their arses off to buy, for it to be taken from them because some suit in a bank ticked a box and made a few million for themselves in the process, overseen by a government that let it happen? Or maybe they were sick of having a couple of wars declared in their name based on lies and deceit, that by happy coincidence made friends and acquaintances of the Bush administration very very rich, whilst a few thousend miles away, tens of thousends of innocent people were killed and face years of birth defects in their offspring? Perhaps, just perhaps they'd have voted for anyone who didn't represent the previous 8 years? Naaa, it's cos they hadn't read up on Marx!  :

Jeeze, you take bizarre reasoning to new levels.

And, Obama made this better?

[Pragmier]

We are going to have to disagree, too bad there is no real way of proving it.

Thank you for avoiding an appeal to ignorance.

They should have prosecuted the top managers at the investment banks - among others - instead of bringing them into the Administration at Treasury and the Fed

We don't often agree but on this point i'm with you. I do believe however the worst is behind us.

[Yorkshire pud]

And, Obama made this better?

I'm not sure anyone would have made it better to be honest with you. Short of us being invaded by aliens, but that's for a different thread.

[Lunger]

I'm not sure anyone would have made it better to be honest with you. Short of us being invaded by aliens, but that's for a different thread.

It could have been made better by simply not exasperating the problem.

[Yorkshire pud]

It could have been made better by simply not exacerbating  the problem.

Yeah, well you can only try and polish a turd so far. But, no-one will ever know.

[PB the Deplorable]

The Public:  "Oh Mr. Obama, Marxism has been such a disaster over the years.  Some say it just hasn't been done correctly under the right leadership yet.  What do you say to that?"

Candidate Obama:  "We are the ones we've been waiting for"

The Public:  "Are the wonders of Marxism really attainable, are you really the ones to finally do it right?

Candidate Obama:  ''Yes we can''

The Public:  ''What about preparing for life by getting an education, working our whole lives to be able to live the lifestyle we want, saving to educate our kids and to have a good retirement?''

Candidate Obama:  "You didn't build that''

The Public:  "You are just so smart"

Candidate Obama:  "We're going to spread the wealth around"

The Public:  "Can you sum it all up?"

Candidate Obama: "We are going to fundamentally transform the United States of America"

The Public: "That might sound ominous to some, do you have a catchy slogan that fits on a bumper sticker"?

Candidate Obama:  'Hope and Change"



No, Obama's not a Marxist.   Where would anyone get that idea?

[Yorkshire pud]

The Public:  "Oh Mr. Obama, Marxism has been such a disaster over the years.  Some say it just hasn't been done correctly under the right leadership yet.  What do you say to that?"

Candidate Obama:  "We are the ones we've been waiting for"

The Public:  "Are the wonders of Marxism really attainable, are you really the ones to finally do it right?

Candidate Obama:  ''Yes we can''

The Public:  ''What about preparing for life by getting an education, working our whole lives to be able to live the lifestyle we want, saving to educate our kids and to have a good retirement?''

Candidate Obama:  "You didn't build that''

The Public:  "You are just so smart"

Candidate Obama:  "We're going to spread the wealth around"

The Public:  "Can you sum it all up?"

Candidate Obama: "We are going to fundamentally transform the United States of America"

The Public: "That might sound ominous to some, do you have a catchy slogan that fits on a bumper sticker"?

Candidate Obama:  'Hope and Change"



No, Obama's not a Marxist.   Where would anyone get that idea?

Hmmm. Extraordinary... no hysteria there then?

[PB the Deplorable]

Hmmm. Extraordinary... no hysteria there then?

Every one of the quotes attributed to Obama were things he actually said either during his campaign or shortly after.  And put in context so people can understand what he meant.

But I understand the resistance to just admitting he's a rat out to undermine and destroy our country.

[Yorkshire pud]

Every one of the quotes attributed to Obama were things he actually said either during his campaign or shortly after.  And put in context so people can understand what he meant.

But I understand the resistance to just admitting he's a rat out to undermine and destroy our country.

Put in context? No, what you mean is, it's what the voices in your head wanted to hear. The thing is, you don't even know what Marxist is. But as it's a convenient thing to use, and you think it gives your ridiculous assertions some value, you use it, I think on the supposition that the less critical will believe you.

Incidentally, are the people in Ukraine and Thailand protesting against their respective governments leftists/ Marxists/ liberals/ freedom fighters/ law abiding citizens?

[PB the Deplorable]

Put in context? No, what you mean is, it's what the voices in your head wanted to hear. The thing is, you don't even know what Marxist is...

Ok, why don't you take all those quotes and tell me what you think they add up to.  And upon hearing them, how it is that the American Left all instinctively knew to support him.

If you can, please make it all add up to Obama being a 'right-winger', that's always good for a laugh

[Yorkshire pud]

Ok, why don't you take all those quotes and tell me what you think they add up to.  And upon hearing them, how it is that the American Left all instinctively knew to support him.

If you can, please make it all add up to Obama being a 'right-winger', that's always good for a laugh

So these are contextual quotes?

The Public:  "Oh Mr. Obama, Marxism has been such a disaster over the years.  Some say it just hasn't been done correctly under the right leadership yet.  What do you say to that?"

Candidate Obama:  "We are the ones we've been waiting for"

The Public:  "Are the wonders of Marxism really attainable, are you really the ones to finally do it right?

Candidate Obama:  ''Yes we can''

Hmmmm


So, are the Thai and Ukrainian protesters leftists? 

[PB the Deplorable]

So these are contextual quotes?


Hmmmm

No.  As I said, the quotes I attributed to Obama were things he said. 

Not the ones I marked 'The Public'