President Donald J. Trump

[Swishypants]

And the real economy goes further underground. Velocity of money is the key to a fiat economy. Paying people MORE money makes it go faster.

[Swishypants]

Where are the women? SNOSHIGES!!!

[Yorkshire pud]

It appears the new tax bill is a turd. Removes most deductions, which by far amount to more than will be made up for by doubling the standard deduction. Cuts corporate taxes. That’s great, would encourage businesses to stay and return to US. Which would help create jobs etc...

Erm...no. Never in the history of modern economics has a corporation used a tax break to generate more jobs or pay higher salaries (With the exception of CEOs and other top execs). The myth of 'trickle down economics' was flushed down the pan in about 1989 or so.

The left should love this tax bill, it increases taxes. But they’re too stupid to figure out how it will play out. You erase all the deductions, in turn you make up for it with corporate tax cut. Then when the next Demokkkrat is in the White House, 1st thing they do is raise the corporate rate back to where is was before. Because who’s gonna argue against “those evil greedy corporations paying their fair share”. And wa la. You have gotten rid of deductions thus increasing taxes on the working class, and corporations are back to getting the shaft.

This steaming pile will never pass. The idiot lemmings will march in whichever direction they’re told. They’ll criticize what could result in a massive tax increase, which they’d normally love, but since Trump is president they’ll fight it. It’s funny and sad to watch the simple minded march as they’re told.

At this point the only thing that’s worth entertaining is the corporate tax cut, the rest is shell game. The establishment from both parties no longer discusses cutting government spending so the whole thing is a waste of time.

Hey, its your baby! Trump endorsed it and didn't he say it was a Christmas present? Yep...He did. 

[Swishypants]

Is Laura fuming and contemplating life with the Rednecks she despises? How will she sea-change her attitude and learn to kiss their asses to survive?

[Lt.Uhura]

Erm...no. Never in the history of modern economics has a corporation used a tax break to generate more jobs or pay higher salaries (With the exception of CEOs and other top execs). The myth of 'trickle down economics' was flushed down the pan in about 1989 or so.


Hey, its your baby! Trump endorsed it and didn't he say it was a Christmas present? Yep...He did. 

https://www.cbpp.org/research/federal-tax/corporate-tax-cuts-mainly-benefit-shareholders-and-ceos-not-workers

[Gd5150]

Erm...no. Never in the history of modern economics has a corporation used a tax break to generate more jobs or pay higher salaries

Due to your continued ignorance, we politely ask that you refrain from embarrassing yourself via input on topics involving economics. Rather we cordially invite you to offer input on your areas expertise. We invite you to partake in the pizzagate thread, which is designed for those with an expertise in the pedophilian arts. Thank you for your understanding.

Straightening stupid out one lemming at a time.


#ilovescience 😄😄😄😄😄😄😄😄😄😄😄😄😄😄😄😄😄😄😄😄😄😄😄😄😄😄😄

[PB the Deplorable]

This steaming pile will never pass...

It's true, with zero Democrat Support in the Senate the Rs are down to 53-48 again (with Pence's vote), three Republican Senators alarmed at the loss of state tax deductions can kill it.

[PB the Deplorable]

It appears the new tax bill is a turd. Removes most deductions...

Here's what I think:  taxes should be for the purpose of raising the necessary funds to run a government.  In the case of the federal government and the federal income tax,

1) Everyone should pay something.  It's ridiculous that half the people pay nothing and therefore don;t care what the rates are and how much everyone else gets soaked.

2) There shouldn't be ANY deductions.  No standard dedution; no personal exemption; no mortgage interest, property tax, state income tax, charitable contribution deductions, none of it

Renters don't get a write off.  People helping out their families or neighbors don't get a write off.  This should be about raising funds to pay for government, period, and whatever else people are doing or not doing shouldn't factor in. 

[PB the Deplorable]

What we really need is a dramatic reduction in the size of government.  Most of what they do is redistribution, with bureaucrats soaking up most of what they are handling in salaries, benefits, pensions, etc, as the grifting middlemen.  Most of the rest of the departments, agencies, etc, are redundent and/or grossly wasteful.

The Ds are always bleating about the rich paying their fair share.  I agree.  Most people fall into every tax bracket at some point as they go through life.  Fresh out of school and earning low wages; gaining job skills, having kids, buying a house, and struggling to pay for it; towards the end of one's career earning more but saving for college, and retirement.  People aren't ''rich'' because they're finally making decent money - they need that for their kid's education and to fund their retirement. 

So let's abolish the federal income tax and institute a wealth tax.  Everyone totes up their total wealth, net of debt, and pays a percent of that.  Foreigners owning real estate and other assets in the US they can't relocate outof the country pay the percentage on that.   The ''rich'' would pay the taxes, not the people who have high incomes for a few years.  They are not the same group.  We are soaking the wrong people.

[PB the Deplorable]

I love Rush, Savage, and Levin.  I rarely get to listen because they are on during the day.

Today I happened to be in the car for several short drives, and heard a couple segments from each of them.  Two topics none of them handle well are anything economics related, and the environment when it comes to parks and conservation.

I listened to each of them blather about the tax bill.  Unfortunately.  I've learned to not even bother with tax bills until they are finalized because they change so much from when they begin until the final bill.  Each of these three made serious misstatements and demonstrated their complete ignorance, although I don't remember who said what.

First off, the home mortgage and property tax limits.  One was saying this would ruin farms and small businesses.  No it wouldn't.  These limits affect HOME mortgage and property taxes only - businesses and farms would still get their full deductions.  For tax purposes, farms are treated as personal residences for the house and land the house sits on, and as a business entitled to full deductions for the barns, the equipment, the rest of the land, everything - including interest and property taxes apportioned to the farm portion.  Even if small businesses are filed on Schedule C of the person's individual tax return, the business interest and business taxes remain fully deductable.  If the state income tax on the Schedule C income is that significant, incorporate.

As for the foreign earnings of a corporation, that is a complete shell game.  Earnings are easily recognized and taxed in the lowest jurisdiction the company has a presence in.  For example the profits on the sales of goods in various countries aren't just simply recognized and taxed there - those subsidiary companies can pay a royalty, or management fee, or commission, or whatever to a holding company located somewhere like the Caymans where there is no corporate tax, shifting the profit there and zeroing out the profit in the countries where the sales were made.  That's just one very basic example of how to move ''taxable profits'' to low or non-tax jurisdictions.  Changing the rules to put an end to this is NOT unfair.

Also, Rush, etc, are supposed to be conservatives.  Conservatives are not for tax policy as social engineering in the form of deductions for various behavior - government encouraging certain actions by subsidizing them.  They should be for a much lower rate for everyone, with no deductions.   

[PB the Deplorable]

Erm...no. Never in the history of modern economics has a corporation used a tax break to generate more jobs or pay higher salaries (With the exception of CEOs and other top execs). The myth of 'trickle down economics' was flushed down the pan in about 1989 or so.

Wrong and wrong.

Businesses are left with more money (their own money, by the way).  They are able to expand the business, if they so choose and if the market climate is right for it.  What is it you think businesses do with their money?  How do you think they grow?

As far as the Reagan economy, that rolled along all the way to 2007/2008, when the debt overhang spooked the economy and Goldman Sachs and AIG provided the spark to crater it (with the Fed sitting on it's hands, looking on)

The two or three very mild recessions along the way in no way ended the Reagan boom.  No matter how much you hate Reagan and Thatcher, and no matter what the Democrat Fake New Media has to say about it.  If you think otherwise, which actions and policies do you think put an end to the Reagan era (please be specific)?

Even if the Fake News Media wanted to be fair (they don't), they have no clue how the economy works.  They are Socialists, they are Keynesians, and more to the point - they have training and degrees in media and ''journalism'', never took a business class, don't have any experience in the business end of the companies they work for, and have no understanding of it.  They seek out fellow Big Government Democrat Socialists and Keynesians in order to write their shitty articles.

[Lt.Uhura]

What we really need is a dramatic reduction in the size of government.  Most of what they do is redistribution, with bureaucrats soaking up most of what they are handling in salaries, benefits, pensions, etc, as the grifting middlemen.  Most of the rest of the departments, agencies, etc, are redundent and/or grossly wasteful.

The Ds are always bleating about the rich paying their fair share.  I agree.  Most people fall into every tax bracket at some point as they go through life.  Fresh out of school and earning low wages; gaining job skills, having kids, buying a house, and struggling to pay for it; towards the end of one's career earning more but saving for college, and retirement.  People aren't ''rich'' because they're finally making decent money - they need that for their kid's education and to fund their retirement. 

So let's abolish the federal income tax and institute a wealth tax.  Everyone totes up their total wealth, net of debt, and pays a percent of that.  Foreigners owning real estate and other assets in the US they can't relocate pays the percentage on that.   The ''rich'' would pay the taxes, not the people who have high incomes for a few years.  They are not the same group.  We are soaking the wrong people.

No they wouldn't. This might be a good idea, but it assumes people are honest and they're not. Hiding wealth through loopholes, shell accounts, money laundering, and overseas accounts costs the country billions in lost taxes. Manafort is just one who happened to get caught via his Trump/Russia connections, otherwise he would have likely gotten away with it, as do many of his ilk.

And why are foreigners allowed to buy American properties anyway? Look at home prices in places like the San Francisco Bay Area and NYC; in addition to low supply, American families are having to compete against wealthy buyers from Asia, Russia, and elsewhere, who pay by phone, in cash, never intending to live there. And Trump himself caters to this crowd, FFS! He hates foreigners unless they're rich and he can do business with them. How many foreigners own apartments in Trump Tower? The American Dream has been inflated and bought off by the 1%ers of the world.

[21st Century Man]

The myth that the left perpetuates is that "trickle-down" economics doesn't work is clearly bullshit and any person with a brain should know better.

[PB the Deplorable]

No they wouldn't. This might be a good idea, but it assumes people are honest and they're not. Hiding wealth through loopholes, shell accounts, money laundering, and overseas accounts costs the country billions in lost taxes. Manafort is just one who happened to get caught via his Trump/Russia connections, otherwise he would have likely gotten away with it, as do many of his ilk.

And why are foreigners allowed to buy American properties anyway? Look at home prices in places like the San Francisco Bay Area and NYC; in addition to low supply, American families are having to compete against wealthy buyers from Asia, Russia, and elsewhere, who pay by phone, in cash, never intending to live there. And Trump himself caters to this crowd, FFS! How many foreigners own apartments in Trump Tower? The American Dream has been inflated and bought off by the 1%ers of the world.

Well, I haven't written a white paper on it, but this is very doable.  We do it when someone dies - we add it all up and tax the total value.  The Estate Tax.  We tax the value of real estate.  The Property Tax.  In most states we tax the value of each automoblie every year.  In California at least, we tax the value of business property and inventory every year.  And so on.  We're already doing much of this, the machinery is already in place.

The owners of every US stock and Bond can be easily reported, and it woud be easy enough for brokerages and banks to report the value of their accounts to the IRS, the way they already report dividends, interest, and sale of stock.  Any high value cars, art, etc, can be required to be reported when sold.  The auto dealer and the prior owner of the art won't want to continue paying taxes on it.

If we can catch the people who were holding untaxed money offshore and paying their offshore credit cards off with it (we did), we can certainly find other offshore accounts.  This is getting easier by the day, with the various countries cooperating and sharing information.  It's the electronic age now.  Most money only exists electronically, and is moved through wire transfers.

Sure there are always going to be cheats, no matter what system is in place.  Earning money overseas and holding it there is doable, but getting harder.  But who wants to hold currency or seurities for very long outside the countries that are sharing information?  It's easier to just take the tax hit and avoid the risk of political instability, seizure, inflation, devaluation, and getting caught.

A key part of all this is the tax would be low, a percent or two, if that.  This is on ALL assets, not just current year income (the value of current year income would be dwarfed by the total value of all assets).  A low percentage tax would make it not worth bothering to cheat for most people - maybe they could cheat on some small portion of their wealth, but the tax not paid on just that would be small

[Dr. MD MD]

The myth that the left perpetuates is that "trickle-down" economics doesn't work is clearly bullshit and any person with a brain should know better.

Then why did the gap between rich and poor continue to grow? 

[21st Century Man]

Then why did the gap between rich and poor continue to grow? 

Reagan's tax-cuts turned the economy around.  We were stuck in a recession prior to his election and in the first year or so.  Have you studied the Laffer curve?  With lower taxes, people have more money to spend.  Tax revenue goes up not down.  Now there is a point where if you cut taxes too much, revenues will drop but that didn't happen with his tax policies.

I come from a middle-class family and we strived in the 80's.  Bush 's policies were bad for the middle class but the gap really only widened in the aughts after the Dot.com bubble bursted under Clinton and carrying over into Bush 2.

[Dr. MD MD]

Reagan's tax-cuts turned the economy around.  We were stuck in a recession prior to his election and in the first year or so.  Have you studied the Laffer curve?  With lower taxes, people have more money to spend.  Tax revenue goes up not down.  Now there is a point where if you cut taxes too much, revenues will drop but that didn't happen with his tax policies.

I come from a middle-class family and we strived in the 80's.  Bush 's policies were bad for the middle class but the gap really only widened in the aughts under Bush 2.

Yeah, I've heard all that before and yet the rich got richer and the poor got poorer over that time. And there were also 2 major market crashes and a recession.

[Swishypants]

The market is all face-sitter porn and flash trades. There is no economy. Reagan borrowed money to do what he did. Unless we have war, we can't be rich. This latest one was a bank robbery, not a war.  Nobody tries to do anything anymore. Not anything of real innovation. The economy doesn't exist, because nobody gives a fuck anymore. Nobody gives a fuck anymore because no one likes each other anymore.

[21st Century Man]

Yeah, I've heard all that before and yet the rich got richer and the poor got poorer over that time. And there were also 2 major market crashes and a recession.

Do tell me how this is bad for the economy?  Everybody benefited.

The Economic Recovery Tax Act of 1981 (Pub.L. 97â€"34), also known as the ERTA or "Kemp-Roth Tax Cut", was a federal law enacted in the United States in 1981. It was an act "to amend the Internal Revenue Code of 1954 to encourage economic growth through reductions in individual income tax rates, the expensing of depreciable property, incentives for small businesses, and incentives for savings, and for other purposes".[1] Included in the act was an across-the-board decrease in the marginal income tax rates in the United States by 25% over three years, with the top rate falling from 70% to 50% and the bottom rate dropping from 14% to 11%. This act slashed estate taxes and trimmed taxes paid by business corporations by $150 billion over a five-year period. Additionally the tax rates were indexed for inflation, though the indexing was delayed until 1985.


https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Economic_Recovery_Tax_Act_of_1981

[PB the Deplorable]

Then why did the gap between rich and poor continue to grow? 

This gets to a fundamental issue that is rarely discussed.

The total amount of wealth is not a fixed amount. 


Wealth is created every day when we go to work, produce something of value, grow a crop, provide a service.  Wealth is created for both sides in every transaction - when I buy a loaf of bread, I'd rather have that than the $3 I earned to pay for it, and the seller would rather have the $3 than the loaf of bread.  As so it goes all through the economy.  It is not a zero sum game, with all wealth flowing to ''the rich''.

''The rich'' are mostly weathly because they produce a very desirable service or product - either as employees or as business owners or by providing liquidity into the market in the form of loans or investment.  Or because they bought something under-utilized and turned it into a more productive asset.  Etc.  Poor people are poor because they produce little of value.  They don't have employable skills. 


''The rich'' got richer because the economy Reagan restructed allowed people to keep more of what they earned, and encouraged them to do so.  Computing and communications, the digital world, arose from that, creating the next level of opportunity and efficiency.  Everything just boomed, like a perfect storm of ecoomic growth.  A new industrial age.

''The poor'' got richer too.  They have cars, cable TV, cell phones, good food if they choose it.  There are plenty of handout programs, medical care programs, a hell of a lot more than people living in poverty ever had before.

The Democrats are expert at class warfare, creating anger and frustration instead of opportunity.  That anyone would think ''the rich got richer and the poor got poorer'' is a Exhibit A of that.  It just isn't true. 

Again, the amount of wealth in the world is not a fixed number, or a set amount - when one person increases their wealth, someone else doesn't get poorer.  That only happens when one person cheats another or steals something - and that's not what we're talking about.  When someone generates wealth by creating, providing a service, etc, the total amount of wealth in the world increases

The rich are getting richer faster, that's true.  The answer is how to get the poor off their dead asses and doing what they need to do to gain job skills.  This in the United States.  People come here from all over the world for the opportunity we offer - some with nothing and speaking no English - and they succeed. That we have a bunch of folks here who think doing well in school is ''acting white'', and all the rest, is a disgrace.

[21st Century Man]

The market is all face-sitter porn and flash trades. There is no economy. Reagan borrowed money to do what he did. Unless we have war, we can't be rich. This latest one was a bank robbery, not a war.

Right.  The market has very little to do with tax policies of an administration.

[Swishypants]

Right.  The market has very little to do with tax policies of an administration.

Tax rates used to be higher, and yet everyone made money. Trust-busting is the only thing that will free up small business and spur innovation. That and easy small business loans.

[21st Century Man]

Tax rates used to be higher, and yet everyone made money. Trust-busting is the only thing that will free up small business and spur innovation. That and easy small business loans.

Right. I'm a fan of trust-busting.  Trust-busting encourages more competition.  One of the big reasons why I love Teddy Roosevelt.

[Swishypants]

Right. I'm a fan of trust-busting.  Trust-busting encourages more competition.  One of the big reasons why I love Teddy Roosevelt.

Hard to do now. Buy old high quality shit, invest in the underground economy, and sit this life out in luxury. My advice.

[21st Century Man]

Hard to do now. Buy old high quality shit, invest in the underground economy, and sit this life out in luxury. My advice.

Quality has gone downhill no doubt.  One pet-peeve of mine.  Lasko fans.  If you run them on high off and on for a year, the velocity deteriorates.  High speed runs no faster than low speed.  Pieces of shit.  Old fans lasted forever.

[Dr. MD MD]

https://www.vox.com/2016/5/23/11704246/wealth-inequality-cartoon

[Swishypants]

Quality has gone downhill no doubt.  One pet-peeve of mine.  Lasko fans.  If you run them on high off and on for a year, the velocity deteriorates.  High speed runs no faster than low speed.  Pieces of shit.  Old fans lasted forever.

Buy everything that is old and high quality and restore it if need be. Pay cash. No debt. Invest in crypto and other underground things. Just enjoy life while the storm rages outside. You will be safe, sound, and comfortable. This system has to collapse before innovation can renew. You and I won't live to see that.

[21st Century Man]

https://www.vox.com/2016/5/23/11704246/wealth-inequality-cartoon

There is no question that wages have stagnated for lower-income jobs over the last 25 years but I think greed has more to do with it than the economic policies of a given president.  Some policies aggravate the problem like Obama's health care policies which reduced full-time positions in many businesses and increased part-time positions with no benefits.

[PB the Deplorable]

The market is all face-sitter porn and flash trades. There is no economy. Reagan borrowed money to do what he did. Unless we have war, we can't be rich. This latest one was a bank robbery, not a war.  Nobody tries to do anything anymore. Not anything of real innovation. The economy doesn't exist, because nobody gives a fuck anymore. Nobody gives a fuck anymore because no one likes each other anymore.

The amount of tax dollars flowing to the federal government doubled under Reagan.  In order to go along with his agenda items, the Democrats in the majority in the House and in the Senate demanded all of that all be spent and more.  They are responsible for that debt, but looking at what Bush Jr and Berock Obama did, it looks insignificant in comparison.

If you don't think the country is wealthier in the digital age with computing, communiations, the new biotech pharmaceuticals extending our lives,and so on, than when Reagan entered offie in 1981, then I can't help you.


That the size of our federal, state, and local government; budget deficit; and national debt are a disgrace, and will be our ruin is a different topic.

[Dr. MD MD]

There is no question that wages have stagnated for lower-income jobs over the last 25 years but I think greed has more to do with it than the economic policies of a given president.  Some policies aggravate the problem like Obama's health care policies which reduced full-time positions in many businesses and increased part-time positions with no benefits.

greed and corruption...there's been a lot of that too.