President Donald J. Trump

[PB the Deplorable]

OK, let's fix it.  Let's start with one of the most bureaucratic and dishonest agencies complicit in much of our healthcare troubles, the FDA.  I'll bring the gas, you the matches.   Seriously, how do you even begin to fix it?

What is your specific issue with them?  They've done a pretty good job of keeping bad drugs off the market, and the pharmaceuticals that have gotten through have been amazing.  Developing and testing new drugs is expensive, but the cost is spread over a wide customer base, especially if the British and others were made to pay their fair share instead of having their prices subsidized by those of us in the free market.

Yeah, they can be bureaucratic, and they've made some poor decisions, it's the price of having government protection.

[PB the Deplorable]

Hey, I didn't say the US would want it. I accept that most US citizens don't give a fuck about anyone else as long as they're alright. And that's fine, so long as those in the 'I'm fine ' camp don't gripe when their world goes tits up and what they once took for granted is a distant unaffordable memory.

Only the incompetents and crooks like Obama, Clinton, and Trump can provide healthcare.  Good to know.

[21st Century Man]

I think this is where we are headed, after a couple handfuls of people milk the living shit of the current crooked system, make record profits off the very lives of fellow countrymen.  Then when it finally collapses, you'll get your national system.  yay.

The only upshot to this I see is the fact that Falkie will have to wait longer in the ER.

I agree.  Like it or not, we have developed an entitlement society in this country and I don't see us reversing course.  I expect single payer health care will be developed during the next Democratic administration.

[pyewacket]

As I've said many times on this forum, the NHS isn't perfect and the politicians using it as a stick to beat people and each other with isn't the fault of the NHS. Nor is the abuse it has heaped on it. But the original philosophy and the way it was funded is a sound one. Since its inception, you, me and many millions have benefitted from the medical breakthroughs it has been responsible for over the decades.

I know from personel experience how much I owe it for the care I and my parents especially recieved from it, all without the worry of if it was affordable.

Humans are fundamentally selfish, and if the status quo of thinking everything is good as long as 'I'm' okay is fine with everyone, fair enough.

But I will bet anything that, that point of view changes dramatically when 'my' circumstances change in a negative way through no fault of 'mine', and when what was once affordable and on demand is no longer on the menu, 'my' point of view changes. Playing 'god' because 'I' can afford health care and 'you' can't isn't civilised.

The NHS is far cheaper to run too than any US policy.

I am glad that you agree that it is not perfect. Neither is ours. Towards the end of the year, we repeatedly find caravans of tour buses all bearing a Red Maple Leaf taking up most of the parking spaces. We don't see this all year long- just when the budget runs out in the perpetually underfunded "free health care system" up north.

I always wonder why people who advocate for free health care and free college education never take it further and petition for free food, shelter, transportation, or energy costs. After all, wouldn't this lead to a physically and mentally healthier existence for everyone?

Or are they saving that for the next progressive political platform?   
 

[Gd5150]

As I posted a few months ago and has been brought up again in the last 24 hours on this thread, the arguments over the pros and cons of a market based versus a single payer health care system are academic at this point.  Nothing short of full blown socialized medicine will satisfy those who are advocates of Obama Care and who see the ACA as getting the nose of the camel under the tent flap.  They of course care little about controlling debt or fostering free enterprise and the independence and self reliance of citizens and want to , step by step, create another Socialists Paradise.  Already they have sold the idea that healthcare is a civil right to half the population.  What's next, dental care, child care and gender reassignment.  Expect constant agitation from the free ride crowd and the politicians who depend on their votes to keep them in office.  Hell, most of them don't pay taxes anyway so they of course are all for anything they don't have to pay for. 

The left sees the republican's efforts to return healthcare to the private sector as an impediment to reaching their ultimate goal of establishing a nanny state.  Last evening I heard Charles Krauthammer who is an MD and an opponent of the ACA predict that within 6-8 years we would have
Socialized Medicine in the U.S.  There's no putting he toothpaste back in the tube and our healthcare will inevitably be put in the hands of bureaucrats.  We all know how well they manage things.

We will have a public system that everyone pays for weather they use it or not. It will be a great source of revenue for the Democrat party and labor unions. It will be outdated, have bloated administration, constantly whine that it doesn't get enough money, have massive wait times, and be avoided at all costs. That will lead to the creation of the private free market system in which only the richest can afford. That's where the top doctors and hospitals will be, and where the 1%ers and politicians will go for healthcare. It will be just like the miscarriage education system is in the United States. And we all know where the wealthy send there kids to school, hint: it rhymes with private.

[Billy Joe Mulgreavey]

What is your specific issue with them?  They've done a pretty good job of keeping bad drugs off the market, and the pharmaceuticals that have gotten through have been amazing.  Developing and testing new drugs is expensive, but the cost is spread over a wide customer base, especially if the British and others were made to pay their fair share instead of having their prices subsidized by those of us in the free market.

Yeah, they can be bureaucratic, and they've made some poor decisions, it's the price of having government protection.

Granted, they do good things but I also think they are a part of creating Big Pharma monopolies by squelching competition. 

Here's an article...
http://time.com/4482179/sen-rand-paul-epipen-scandal/

[Kidnostad3]

Enlightenment constructs don't work when you have madmen at the levers of power, or Igors running around the U.S. House of Representatives acting on his own because he believes he knows something of free markets.

I asked earlier what the president's policy is on health care. Not Obama's, not Paul Ryan's, not little Ivanka's. His. What is it? I'll hang up and listen.

He's for it. 

[starrmtn001]

Leftist "Witches" Still Trying to Hex Trump.  5.5.17.   

https://youtu.be/WNiMimS7G_4

[Yorkshire pud]

What is your specific issue with them?  They've done a pretty good job of keeping bad drugs off the market, and the pharmaceuticals that have gotten through have been amazing.  Developing and testing new drugs is expensive, but the cost is spread over a wide customer base, especially if the British and others were made to pay their fair share instead of having their prices subsidized by those of us in the free market.

Yeah, they can be bureaucratic, and they've made some poor decisions, it's the price of having government protection.

Utter bullshit.

[Yorkshire pud]

I am glad that you agree that it is not perfect. Neither is ours. Towards the end of the year, we repeatedly find caravans of tour buses all bearing a Red Maple Leaf taking up most of the parking spaces. We don't see this all year long- just when the budget runs out in the perpetually underfunded "free health care system" up north.

I always wonder why people who advocate for free health care and free college education never take it further and petition for free food, shelter, transportation, or energy costs. After all, wouldn't this lead to a physically and mentally healthier existence for everyone?

Or are they saving that for the next progressive political platform?   

You always wonder this? And you're correct, maybe we should. A barter system. I cannot though relate to knowing someone could die because the system decided their poverty precluded their right to treatment that could cure or prevent diseases. Maybe I'm just one of those pragmatic, kind liberals after all? I don't regret it.

And free education has probably been beneficial to you in your life at some point. You might not even know it. And if that person hadn't had that free education, whatever they invented, developed or discovered would have taken longer to find, or not at all.

[Yorkshire pud]

Leftist "Witches" Still Trying to Hex Trump.  5.5.17.   

Hippy in leather jacket preaches to the easily led. Extra extra..

[Dr. MD MD]

Hippy in leather jacket preaches to the easily led. Extra extra..

Leftist British cuck desperately tries to influence American politics with alarmist propaganda. Extra, extra! 

[21st Century Man]

You always wonder this? And you're correct, maybe we should. A barter system. I cannot though relate to knowing someone could die because the system decided their poverty precluded their right to treatment that could cure or prevent diseases. Maybe I'm just one of those pragmatic, kind liberals after all? I don't regret it.

And free education has probably been beneficial to you in your life at some point. You might not even know it. And if that person hadn't had that free education, whatever they invented, developed or discovered would have taken longer to find, or not at all.

Nothing is free.  You pay one way or another.

[GravitySucks]

Hey, I didn't say the US would want it. I accept that most US citizens don't give a fuck about anyone else as long as they're alright. And that's fine, so long as those in the 'I'm fine ' camp don't gripe when their world goes tits up and what they once took for granted is a distant unaffordable memory.

You are disengenious. Which country is the first at the scene of a natural disaster anywhere in the world?  How many private charities are funded by caring Americans throughout the world. I know what I have donated to charity in my lifetime. There is an Indian boy in university today and a Colombian girl working as a dental hygienist because of sponsorship programs. While we have a $20 trillion federal debt, we are still funding overseas aid.

Americans, as a whole, have big hearts. We would just rather have the liberty to dictate where the money goes through private charities, many of the faith-based, instead of having bureaucrats decide where it goes.

[21st Century Man]

You are disengenious. Which country is the first at the scene of a natural disaster anywhere in the world?  How many private charities are funded by caring Americans throughout the world. I know what I have donated to charity in my lifetime. There is an Indian boy in university today and a Colombian girl working as a dental hygienist because of sponsorship programs. While we have a $20 trillion federal debt, we are still funding overseas aid.

Americans, as a whole, have big hearts. We would just rather have the liberty to dictate where the money goes through private charities, many of the faith-based, instead of having bureaucrats decide where it goes.

Amen.

[GravitySucks]

I am glad that you agree that it is not perfect. Neither is ours. Towards the end of the year, we repeatedly find caravans of tour buses all bearing a Red Maple Leaf taking up most of the parking spaces. We don't see this all year long- just when the budget runs out in the perpetually underfunded "free health care system" up north.

I always wonder why people who advocate for free health care and free college education never take it further and petition for free food, shelter, transportation, or energy costs. After all, wouldn't this lead to a physically and mentally healthier existence for everyone?

Or are they saving that for the next progressive political platform?   

I can tell you what is next on the progressive's radar if they can wrest total control of the healthcare system. It is private pensions. There is about $20 trillion socked away in private investment accounts like 401(k)s and IRAs. This is their next target. Mark my words.

[Yorkshire pud]

Leftist British cuck desperately tries to influence American politics with alarmist propaganda. Extra, extra! 

As I've also said several times before. If you think I will influence American politics, then my training with MI6 has been worthwhile. Makes a change from you once claiming I was paid by Clinton, so that's a plus.

[Kidnostad3]

What is your specific issue with them?  They've done a pretty good job of keeping bad drugs off the market, and the pharmaceuticals that have gotten through have been amazing.  Developing and testing new drugs is expensive, but the cost is spread over a wide customer base, especially if the British and others were made to pay their fair share instead of having their prices subsidized by those of us in the free market.

Yeah, they can be bureaucratic, and they've made some poor decisions, it's the price of having government protection.

Here are a few specifics.  Can you tell us why drugs are so much more expensive in the USA than virtually anywhere else.  Have we Americans been designated to be the principal bearers of research costs.  Also, Big Pharma spends more on advertising than it does on research and consumers pay
for it.  If these drugs are so wonderful, why do they have to be marketed like toothpaste and deodorant? 

https://www.bloomberg.com/graphics/2015-drug-prices/

https://www.washingtonpost.com/news/wonk/wp/2015/02/11/big-pharmaceutical-companies-are-spending-far-more-on-marketing-than-research/?utm_term=.8aaab1d99a54

[Yorkshire pud]

You are disengenious. Which country is the first at the scene of a natural disaster anywhere in the world?  How many private charities are funded by caring Americans throughout the world. I know what I have donated to charity in my lifetime. There is an Indian boy in university today and a Colombian girl working as a dental hygienist because of sponsorship programs. While we have a $20 trillion federal debt, we are still funding overseas aid.

Americans, as a whole, have big hearts. We would just rather have the liberty to dictate where the money goes through private charities, many of the faith-based, instead of having bureaucrats decide where it goes.

They don't have the heart though to want their own citizens to have universal health care that would benefit all. I give to charity too, so do many millions in the west.

[Yorkshire pud]

Nothing is free.  You pay one way or another.

I never said it was completely free. I said it was free at the point of need. Any need, whether you were born with it, developed it, or it returned. No conditions based on wealth.

[Kidnostad3]

Amen.

Yea and verily!

[Dr. MD MD]

As I've also said several times before. If you think I will influence American politics, then my training with MI6 has been worthwhile. Makes a change from you once claiming I was paid by Clinton, so that's a plus.

You must've missed the words desperately tries. 

[Yorkshire pud]

You must've missed the word desperately. 

Oh okay...

[GravitySucks]

They don't have the heart though to want their own citizens to have universal health care that would benefit all. I give to charity too, so do many millions in the west.

It has nothing to do with heart. It has everything to do with mistrust of our bloated, corrupt federal government. I can't explain it any clearer than that.

Some of us were taught the benefits and the limits of the Constitution and desire a society and a federal government that is bound by that.

[Dr. MD MD]

I think that ultimately we will have universal health care in this country regardless of the political party in power. The reason is that it just makes the most economic sense and that should certainly appeal to conservatives. The concerns of a universal health care system are, to me, not economic ones but social ones. Once there is universal health care system will wait times for procedures become unreasonable? Once there is a universal health care system will unreasonable demands be made on citizens to comply with it? e.g., If you want access to the system then you MUST have a DNA screening test first. Oh, and we'd like to insert this little chip into all citizens that will help monitor your health. 

These are the more serious questions, the answers of which will truly and profoundly change our society.

[pyewacket]

I can tell you what is next on the progressive's radar if they can wrest total control of the healthcare system. It is private pensions. There is about $20 trillion socked away in private investment accounts like 401(k)s and IRAs. This is their next target. Mark my words.

Didn't Jesse Jackson suggest this at the 1996 DNC?

America has $6 trillion in private and public pension funds. We could take 5 percent of the workers’ money, with workers’ consent, government secured, to rebuild our infrastructure.

http://www.pbs.org/newshour/bb/politics-july-dec96-jackson_08-27/

Would you trust them with your pension money? We've already trusted them with our Social Security money.

[pyewacket]

You always wonder this? And you're correct, maybe we should. A barter system. I cannot though relate to knowing someone could die because the system decided their poverty precluded their right to treatment that could cure or prevent diseases. Maybe I'm just one of those pragmatic, kind liberals after all? I don't regret it.

And free education has probably been beneficial to you in your life at some point. You might not even know it. And if that person hadn't had that free education, whatever they invented, developed or discovered would have taken longer to find, or not at all.

Let us consider a barter system. I need to get my car repaired and my neighbor helps me drop my car off and drives me home. I in turn, make a meal for him and his wife. Does this barter not cost us anything? Bartering does not equal 'free' and it only works if you can provide what someone else wants.

You hurt your ankle and need an X-ray to determine if it's sprained or broken. In your proposed barter system, what kind of deal do you strike with your local radiologist? Mow his lawn, wax his car, provide goats or chickens? If he already has enough goats and chickens, has a mowed lawn, and waxed car from yesterday's patients- what then? What unique services do you have to offer?

All sorts of useful information is available to us via the internet. Even though you don't have to put a quarter in a slot- it's not free. We always have to pay for what we access- through fees, utility bills, your computer, transportation, your source of internet connection, - and on and on.  What about school and property taxes- they pay for the local educational systems, the municipal services, and medicaid. Once education is 'free' how does that affect our tax rates?

[Dr. MD MD]

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=nIsJ6_AR1j4

[GravitySucks]

Didn't Jesse Jackson suggest this at the 1996 DNC?

http://www.pbs.org/newshour/bb/politics-july-dec96-jackson_08-27/

Would you trust them with your pension money? We've already trusted them with our Social Security money.

It has been discussed quite a bit when Obama took office. Beware of any organization that has the word "progress" in its title. (Link is to a PDF so take normal precautions). This article discusses mainly public pension funds, but there are plenty of links discussing putting restrictions on private accounts - such as making them invest in government bonds.

https://www.americanprogress.org/wp-content/uploads/2013/03/CooperCraigPensionFunds-1.pdf

There are plenty of websites with varying degrees of credibility, but this was floated by, I believe, Valerie Jarrett in 2009. No surprise. Michelle Obama worked for Jesse Jackson for several years in Chicago.

[Billy Joe Mulgreavey]

I can tell you what is next on the progressive's radar if they can wrest total control of the healthcare system. It is private pensions. There is about $20 trillion socked away in private investment accounts like 401(k)s and IRAs. This is their next target. Mark my words.

I agree.  It seems to be one of the few treasure chests they haven't completely plundered out.   Our state retirement system is in shambles.  Several years ago it was in the red by seven billion...don't know what it is now.  I lost my 401k seven years ago.  The company I worked for couldn't afford to service the accounts (or to contribute to them).   This was largely due to draconian budget cuts by the state. 

I never thought of George Carlin as a particularly funny guy, but I did like some of his commentary concerning government.  He also predicted a thieving of retirement monies.

It has nothing to do with heart. It has everything to do with mistrust of our bloated, corrupt federal government. I can't explain it any clearer than that.

Some of us were taught the benefits and the limits of the Constitution and desire a society and a federal government that is bound by that.

Carlin also said that he felt that nothing short of violent revolution will fix any of it.  I don't want to believe that.  I'd like to think that we can still turn it all around.  Not sure how, the last few elections were nothing but dog and pony shows.