War Birds

[albrecht]

Big enough?

https://youtu.be/jfHExG8xYqc

Awesome, how goes your project? It has been a rainy summer and even now so I haven't gone by but the "air strip" near me for models is fun to see (though honestly most times I go they are more tinkering with the crafts, bsing, and hanging out, than flying.)

[Walks_At_Night]

As I recall, I left of with the Seversky P-35.

So the next US fighter Army plane in line would be the Curtiss P-36  Hawk.  Designed by prominent engineer, Don Berlin, the P-36
would be a financial success for the Curtiss-Wright Corporation [which is still business today].   The US Army Air Force would only
buy about 200 aircraft but over 900 would be sold abroad and would see significant service with the French Airforce and with the Dutch
in the Dutch East Indies.   

It was under powered and certainly not as successful as it's contemporaries the Hawker Hurricane or the Me 109.   However it had
very good turning performance and was solid enough to serve well into the 1950's with Argentina.   It also had decent lines on it and
was not a bad looking aircraft.

[Uncle Duke]

As I recall, I left of with the Seversky P-35.

So the next US fighter Army plane in line would be the Curtiss P-36  Hawk.  Designed by prominent engineer, Don Berlin, the P-36
would be a financial success for the Curtiss-Wright Corporation [which is still business today].   The US Army Air Force would only
buy about 200 aircraft but over 900 would be sold abroad and would see significant service with the French Airforce and with the Dutch
in the Dutch East Indies.   

It was under powered and certainly not as successful as it's contemporaries the Hawker Hurricane or the Me 109.   However it had
very good turning performance and was solid enough to serve well into the 1950's with Argentina.   It also had decent lines on it and
was not a bad looking aircraft.

Another great warbird, Walks.  The early models had fixed gear, but I think those were all exported.  The Brits used their Mohawks in Burma until late in the war, primarily as fighter-bombers but did occasionally mix it up with Japanese Army Oscars.  I think the Hawk was the only US made fighter to be flown against itself in combat in WWII during the brief (Vichy) France-Thai War of 1940/41.  Don't recall if there were any Hawks shot down by Hawks.

There is a P-36 on the airshow circuit, I think it's based in the UK at Duxford.  Last I saw in "FlyPast" it was painted in French pre-war colors.

[Walks_At_Night]

Here we can see three captured P-36's in simulated action with an He-111 in this German propaganda film.
The Heinkel downs two of the attackers and drives off the third but alas there is a cost:

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=0QhvhQgIIls

[Taaroa]

I'd love to fly a warbird at least once. Such a shame so many of them were just scrapped at the end of WW2.

[Uncle Duke]

Here we can see three captured P-36's in simulated action with an He-111 in this German propaganda film.
The Heinkel downs two of the attackers and drives off the third but alas there is a cost:

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=0QhvhQgIIls

That is cool, I'd never seen that before.  When the FW-190s were first encountered over France, RAF intelligence told their pilots the only radial engine fighters available to the Luftwaffe were captured Mohawks.  The pilots knew the high performance a/c that chewed up their Spitfire Vs were not Mohawks, but it took a while for the RAF to get the sccop on the FWs.

[Yorkshire pud]

The later version of the Corsair F4  and the B36 had something in common. One of the most technically complex but beautifully designed piston engines ever made. The Pratt and Whitney R 4360. 28 cylinders arranged in a spiral to aid cooling.

[Jackstar]

One of the most technically complex but beautifully designed piston engines ever designed.

[Walks_At_Night]

Next Warbird on the list would be the Curtiss P-37.   It was an ungainly attempt to take the P-36 Mohawk as a base
and merge it with an inline Allison engine.  It had a lot of drawbacks and never went into production but in it's lines
you can see the makings of it's famous Big Brother.

[Walks_At_Night]

Next in line is the famous Lockheed P-38 Lightning.   Designed by the legendary Kelly Johnson it would be the US fighter that
would be in production for the entire war with over 10,000 being built.  It's unusual twin-boomed design was developed to meet
the US Army Air Corpsrequirement for a twin engined bomber interceptor that could utilize the V-1710 inline liquid cooled V- 12 engine
and the GE supercharger.  Kelly Johnson would go through six configurations before settling on the final, famous version.  Johnson
suspected that  compressibility stalls would be a problem in high speed dives which could lead to control issues and this did indeed turn out to be
the case. It would take quite some time to finally get this issue resolved completely - this weakness would be exploited by the
Luftwaffe.   If a German fighter wanted to get away from a P-38, they often would attempt to escape by going into a steep
dive as they knew the Lightning would be reluctant to follow.   Testing in NACA [NASA's predecessor] would reveal the issue and
it would eventually be resolved by adding dive flaps to the aircraft.

When used in the interceptor role that the it was designed for the P-38 was outstanding - it would be a P-38 that would hunt
down the bomber that Admiral Isoroku Yamamoto was using and kill him in Operation Vengeance.   The P-38 was also flexible
enough of a platform to handle other duties as well - photo reconnaissance and ground attack.   It handled these pretty well.
As a long range escort and air superiority fighter it's record is less clear.  It had its advantages - high speed, great rate of climb,
its firepower was concentrated in the nose but its initial use at high altitudes as a long range escort fighter would reveal issues
with its Allison engines when used over Germany.  However at the time it was the only American fighter capable of handling this
assignment as the P-47 did not have the P-38s range and the Mustang was not yet available.  The P-38 would be used in every
theater of the War - North Africa, the Med, Europe, Burma and in the Pacific.   As a fighter it would shine in the Pacific where it
would match up very well with the Zeros and Oscars that opposed it - all of the leading US aces would be P-38 pilots based in the
Pacific. 

Against the Germans Me109 and Fw 190 it was far from dominant but could hold its own and it did have its fans - especially the
P-38L version.   Here are some interesting quotes from American pliot Arthur Heiden

"Nothing, to these pilots, after the hard winter of 1943-44 could be more beautiful than a P-38L outrolling and tailgating a German fighter straight down, following a spin or split-S or whatever gyration a startled, panicked and doomed German might attempt to initiate. You just couldn't get away from the P-38L. Whatever the German could do, the American in the P-38L could do better

The P-51 was a new airplane and we were eager to fly it and were happy with it. It was so easy and comfortable to fly. The P-38 had kept us on our toes and constantly busy--far more critical to fly. You never could relax with it. We were disappointed with the 51's rate of climb and concerned with the reverse stick, especially if fuel was in the fuselage tank, the rash of rough engines from fouled plugs, and cracked heads which dumped the coolant. With the 38 you could be at altitude before landfall over the continent, but with the 51 you still had a lot of climbing yet to do. The 38 was an interceptor and if both engines (were healthy), you could outclimb any other airplane, and that's what wins dog fights. When you are in a dog fight below tree tops, it is way more comfortable in a 38 with its power and stall characteristics and, for that matter at any altitude

The 8th was, at last, being flooded with Mustangs and well trained pilots. The Mustang was a delight to fly, easier to maintain cheaper to build and train pilots for, and had long legs. In those respects you can rightfully call it better, but it could not do anything better than a P-38J-25 or L. Just remember who took the war to the enemy and held on under inconceivable odds. Enough of the crap.

My Dad was WWII veteran and served aboard Destroyers in the Atlantic, the Med and the Pacific and the P-38 was his absolute favorite plane
of the war. This was for the simple fact that nothing else looked like it and if you saw one overhead there was no doubt that it all was well.

I'll post some more about the P-38 down the line and I am sure others will have their own thoughts on it as well

[Walks_At_Night]

Five P-38 Lightnings at an airshow in 2013

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=xubCaOlHJOE

[Walks_At_Night]

Here is an interesting article in the latest version of the Alumni magazine from the old Alma Mater.  It talks about a grad named John Hascall who flew a P-38 and was killed over Holland after being shot down by Leopold Münster of the Luftwaffe.

His grave has been attended to by the same Dutch family for decades.   It is a nice article and well worth the time reading it.

The photos below fascinate me - you could not find two more that play to sterotypes then these two for their respective sides.
Of course the settings have a lot to do with it but you have the crooked, informal smile of the American and the stern German. 

John Hascall


Leopold Münster

[Uncle Duke]

With the possible exception of the Mosquito, the P-38 was the most beautiful twin (piston) engined fighter of the war. The J models picked up power booster ailerons, then the L models added more powerful engines. At that point it was as good as any other piston fighter in the war. In addition to the concentrated firepower in the nose, another overlooked (and under appreciated) aspect of the Lightning was its lack of engine torque effects due to its counter rotating props.  The P-38 turned as well to the left as it did to the right, giving it a real advantage in a turning/rolling fight.

My dad trained as a P-38 mechanic in the AAF, but the war ended just as he was getting out of tech school.  Still his favorite airplane despite all those he worked on over his nearly forty year career.  A few years ago I took him to see a Heritage Flight with a P-38 and an F-16 at the Dayton Airshow.  It literally brought tears to his eyes, and that brought tears to mine.

[Yorkshire pud]

https://youtu.be/G0icOICQLTc

One was/is a warbird, arguably the most beautiful jet fighter ever designed. Some very nice flying by both...

[Walks_At_Night]

One was/is a warbird, arguably the most beautiful jet fighter ever designed. Some very nice flying by both...

Nice YP,    Enjoyed that one. 

[Chine]

These images are quite amazing. I hope you don't mind I post this but I keep visualizing these guys every time I read "War Birds"

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=oIZQRyjvrpg

[Walks_At_Night]

These images are quite amazing. I hope you don't mind I post this but I keep visualizing these guys every time I read "War Birds"

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=oIZQRyjvrpg

Welcome aboard the thread Chine!

[Chine]

Welcome aboard the thread Chine!

Ha. Thanks. I was hoping you wouldn't be put off by my funny youtube contribution. I used to fly (inflight) for an airline in NYC many years ago. Only did so for two years as it was an ends to a means for a dream job. I appreciate flight, the aircraft. Of course, never been on a war bird. But, they are beautiful and I can appreciate them. It is interesting to look at the various design of them over the years.

[Walks_At_Night]

I've done some more poking around on the two protagonist's from the article I posted above.   

Leopold Münster was quite the bad ass - he had 95 kills and probably would have had more if he wasn't killed ramming a B-24.
It was unfortunate that my fellow Tech grad from the U.P. came up against him that day over Holland. More on Münster later.

I've tried to find out more on John Hascall but haven't come up with much as of yet.  I've learned that his aircraft was a
P-38H-5-LO model,  number 42-67016.   I've tried to locate a photo of the plane but have had no luck so far.  I did find
an uncropped photo of Hascall - which shows more of him perched on his P-38.

[Yorkshire pud]

This actual aircraft was in 'Topgun'.

[Walks_At_Night]

No luck as of yet finding a photo of Hascall's aircraft - either before or after it crashed.  Some of the wreckage was discovered in 1981 so
there should be something, somewhere. I've learned a few things so far, so I thought I would share them.

He was part of the 77th Fighter Squadron "All Aces-No Jokers", which still exists today.  They fly F-16's out Shaw AFB, SC.
Here is the 77th's logo:



I've also found the original Missing Air Crew Report
that was filed after Hascall failed to return. It is located on a haunting page dedicated to those pilots killed from the 20th air group.   


And some film shot at RAF Kings Cliffe where the 77th was based.
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=sMaQ0d-00ew

[Taaroa]

Canada really needs to get their shit together and start producing modernised versions of these

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=0tq-wlspDb8

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=iStRkk5O3sg

[Uncle Duke]

Canada really needs to get their shit together and start producing modernised versions of these

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=0tq-wlspDb8

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=iStRkk5O3sg

https://youtu.be/Jpq09_ak_ZM

Crash video used as a teaching point in mishap investigation training.  Not pretty.

[Walks_At_Night]

Here is a little more info on Leopold  "Poldi" Münster, the Luftwaffe pilot from the story above.  Like many of the top Axis pilots (and he was one of the best) , he would rack up a huge number of kills - 95 in all.     Sources conflict on where he was from but several point to Pohorsch, which was a small community in the Sudetenland in the modern day Czech Republic.   He would join the Luftwaffe at the age of 19 and would train as a fighter pilot.  He would fly in the Battle of Britain, North Africa and the Eastern Front before being transferred to the Western Front to defend Germany itself. 

On that November day in 1943 when he met John Hascall over Holland, he would kill two P-38's in his Me-109 - they would bring his tally to 82 up to that point.  Unfortunately for Hascall he was up against a gifted pilot that had years of combat flying experience behind him.   Münster would be killed on May 8th, 1944.  From at least some the things I have read, he shot down a B-17 but expended his ammunition.  Rather than returning back to base he would continue on into a flight of B-24's where he would pick one out and ram it for his 95th and final kill.

Münster on the left, where he appears taller than the other pilots:


Münster's death announcement:


Plus a couple of more photo's:

[Walks_At_Night]

I will continue to look for a picture of Hascall's P-38.   A big thanks to Duke who has shared some excellent resources.

[Jackstar]

Pictured here, we see the present apex of human aviation... on the left.

[Taaroa]

Crash video used as a teaching point in mishap investigation training.  Not pretty.

Reminds me of these two - both low altitude stalls on turns:

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=WYMwkBfIE1Y

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=182AepOJjMs

[Uncle Duke]

Reminds me of these two - both low altitude stalls on turns:

The Caribou crashed because the (test) pilots neglected to follow their preflight checklist and took off with their control surfaces locked.  Brilliant.

I did not work either of the mishap investigations for the videos you posted, but I did read the complete MIB report on the B-52 at Fairchild.  Absolutely horrifying, the most avoidable fatal mishap I saw in over thirty years.  The aircraft commander was a disaster waiting to happen.  If the wing commander wasn't sacked for allowing that idiot to fly that demonstration, he damn well should have been.

[Yorkshire pud]

The Caribou crashed because the (test) pilots neglected to follow their preflight checklist and took off with their control surfaces locked.  Brilliant.

I did not work either of the mishap investigations for the videos you posted, but I did read the complete MIB report on the B-52 at Fairchild.  Absolutely horrifying, the most avoidable fatal mishap I saw in over thirty years.  The aircraft commander was a disaster waiting to happen.  If the wing commander wasn't sacked for allowing that idiot to fly that demonstration, he damn well should have been.

Absolutely. He should have been grounded long before that. An ego on legs. He lends credence to: "How do you know there's a pilot in the room?"  He'll tell you.

Both crashes were avoidable. The C17 must have been close to stall from the first right turn up until the impact. No sound so I don't know if he'd tried to spool up the engines to get some airflow through the flaps (blown flaps?) .

[Taaroa]

The Caribou crashed because the (test) pilots neglected to follow their preflight checklist and took off with their control surfaces locked.

Ouch, but it certainly looked similar to a low altitude stall in a high angle turn. How are they locked on the Caribou?
It sounds similar to an A340 incident a few years ago which used an incorrect weight calculation for a derated takeoff which wasn't discovered in checks, ended up hitting the ILS antenna and narrowly avoided a disaster. Melbourne now has a shiny new Cat 3 ILS courtesy of a certain airline.

"How do you know there's a pilot in the room?" 

He's the one with the fanciest watch.