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Midnight In The Desert

Started by Falkie2013, December 12, 2015, 01:13:40 AM

Quote from: StarrMountain on June 14, 2018, 12:33:46 AM
Gettin' ready to hit the hay.  Goodnight everyone, good seeing Y'all again. :-*
Enjoy the rest of the show.

G'night, Starr.

Rocketeer

Quote from: 14 on June 14, 2018, 12:29:21 AM
[ . . . ]

Quote from: TigerLily on June 13, 2018, 11:34:34 PM
https://rationalwiki.org/wiki/List_of_scientifically_controlled_double_blind_studies_which_have_conclusively_demonstrated_the_efficacy_of_homeopathy?
List of scientifically controlled double blind studies which have conclusively demonstrated the efficacy of homeopathic

Did you open that link?

It's this:



Yep, even a .gif of tumbleweeds.

TigerLily

Quote from: 14 on June 14, 2018, 12:29:21 AM
And...
https://www.huffingtonpost.com/dana-ullman/dysfunction-at-wikipedia-_b_5924226.html

By Dana Ullman

"...Chronic obstructive pulmonary disease: Frass, M, Dielacher, C, Linkesch, M, et al. Influence of potassium dichromate on tracheal secretions in critically ill patients, Chest, March, 2005;127:936-941. The journal, Chest, is the official publication of the American College of Chest Physicians.

Hayfever: Reilly D, Taylor M, McSharry C, et al., Is homoeopathy a placebo response? controlled trial of homoeopathic potency, with pollen in hayfever as model,” Lancet, October 18, 1986, ii: 881-6.

Asthma: Reilly, D, Taylor, M, Beattie, N, et al., “Is Evidence for Homoeopathy Reproducible?” Lancet, December 10, 1994, 344:1601-6.

Fibromyalgia: Bell IR, Lewis II DA, Brooks AJ, et al. Improved clinical status in fibromyalgia patients treated with individualized homeopathic remedies versus placebo, Rheumatology. 2004:1111-5. This journal is the official journal of the British Society of Rheumatology.

Fibromyalgia: Fisher P, Greenwood A, Huskisson EC, et al., “Effect of Homoeopathic Treatment on Fibrositis (Primary Fibromyalgia),” BMJ, 299(August 5, 1989):365-6.

Childhood diarrhea: Jacobs, J, Jimenez, LM, Gloyd, SS, Treatment of Acute Childhood Diarrhea with Homeopathic Medicine: A Randomized Double-blind Controlled Study in Nicaragua, Pediatrics, May, 1994,93,5:719-25.
ADD/ADHD: Frei, H, Everts R, von Ammon K, Kaufmann F, Walther D, Hsu-Schmitz SF, Collenberg M, Fuhrer K, Hassink R, Steinlin M,

Thurneysen A. Homeopathic treatment of children with attention deficit hyperactivity disorder: a randomised, double blind, placebo controlled crossover trial. Eur J Pediatr., July 27,2005,164:758-767.

...can you name ONE other system of “pseudoscience” that has a similar body of randomized, double-blind, and placebo-controlled clinical trials published in high-impact medical journals showing efficacy of treatment?


This more comprehensive Swiss government-funded report found a particularly strong body of evidence to support the homeopathic treatment of Upper Respiratory Tract Infections and Respiratory Allergies. The report cited 29 studies in “Upper Respiratory Tract Infections/AllergicReactions,” with 24 studies having a positive result in favor of homeopathy. Six out of seven controlled studies that compared homeopathic treatment with conventional medical treatment showed homeopathy to be more effective than conventional medical interventions. When the researchers evaluated only the randomized placebo controlled trials, 12 out of 16 studies showed a positive result in favor of homeopathy.

...Kleijnen J, Knipschild P ter Riet G. Clinical trials of homoeopathy. BMJ 1991, 302, 316-23. Of the 22 best studies, 15 showed positive results from homeopathic treatment. The researchers concluded, “there is a legitimate case for further evaluation of homeopathy.”
Jacobs J, Jonas WB, Jimenez-Perez M, Crothers D, Homeopathy for Childhood Diarrhea: Combined Results and Metaanalysis from Three Randomized, Controlled Clinical Trials, Pediatr Infect Dis J, 2003;22:229-34. This metaanalysis of 242 children showed a highly significant result in the duration of childhood diarrhea (P=0.008).

Kassab S, Cummings M, Berkovitz S, van Haselen R, Fisher P. Homeopathic medicines for adverse effects of cancer treatments. Cochrane Database of Systematic Reviews 2009, Issue 2.

Taylor, MA, Reilly, D, Llewellyn-Jones, RH, et al., Randomised controlled trial of homoeopathy versus placebo in perennial allergic rhinitis with overview of four trial Series, BMJ, August 19, 2000, 321:471-476. The BMJ published an editorial in the issue in which this study was published asserting, “It may be time to confront the conclusion that homeopathy and placebo differ...... This may be more plausible than the conclusion that their trials have produced serial false positive results” (This week in the BMJ. Homoeopathic dilutions may be better than placebo. BMJ 2000;321:0).

Jonas, WB, Linde, Klaus, and Ramirez, Gilbert, “Homeopathy and Rheumatic Disease,” Rheumatic Disease Clinics of North America, February 2000,1:117-123.
Is Homeopathy Really “Implausible”?


...The journal, Langmuir, is the journal of the American Chemical Society, and in 2012, they published an important article that provided a plausible explanation for the actions of homeopathic medicines. First, they verified using three different types of spectroscopy that clearly showed that nanoparticles of six original medicinal agents persisted in solutions even after they were diluted 1:100 six times, thirty times, and even two-hundred times.
Avogadro’s number predicts that none of the original medicinal agents would have ANY persisting molecules of the original medicinal substance would remain after 12 dilutions of 1:100. However, the scientists describe reasonable and even predictable factors that lead to the persistence of nanoparticles after their multiple dilutions. The scientists note that the use of double-distilled water in glass vials leads to varying amounts of silica fragments that fall into the water, as much as 6ppm. The vigorous shaking of the glass vial creates bubbles and “nanobubbles” that bring oxygen into the water and that increase substantially the water pressure (William Tiller, PhD, the former head of Stanford’s Department of Material Science, estimated this pressure to be 10,000 atmospheres).
Ultimately, this increased water pressure forces whatever medicinal substance is in the double-distilled water into the silica, and every substance will interact with the silica in its own idiosyncratic way. Then, when 90% of the water is dumped out, the silica fragments predictably cling to the glass walls.

When skeptics of homeopathy reference Avogadro’s number as “evidence” that homeopathic medicines beyond 24X or 12C have “no remaining molecules left,” they are simply verifying their own ignorance of Avogadro’s number because this widely recognized principle in chemistry does NOT account for the complexities of the silica fragments, the bubbles or nanobubbles, nor the increased water pressure. In fact, any serious scientist or educated individual who asserts that a homeopathic medicine is “beyond Avogadro’s number” has no ground on which they stand.

...What is shocking about Wikipedia’s article of homeopathy is that there is NO reference to this Nobel Prize winner or to his interview in one of the most respected scientific journals in the world today or any reference to French government... I was blocked from editing any article to do with homeopathy because I was deemed to have a “conflict of interest” due to the fact that I am a homeopath. Ironically, no medical doctor is prohibited from editing on any medical subject just because she or he is a medical doctor!

... [A letter was]also signed by:
Michael Frass, MD, Professor of Medicine, Medical University of Vienna (Austria)

Paolo Bellavite, MD, Professor, Università of Verona (Italy), Department of Pathology and Diagnostics

Paolo Roberti di Sarsina, MD, Observatory and Methods for Health, University of Milano-Bicocca, Italy; Charity for Person Centered Medicine-Moral Entity, Bologna, Italy; Expert for Non-Conventional Medicine (2006-2013), High Council for Health, Ministry of Health, Italy

Dr Clare Relton, Senior Research Fellow (Public Health), School of Health & Related Research, University of Sheffield (UK)
Stephan Baumgartner, PhD, Institute of Complementary Medicine, University of Bern, Switzerland; Institute of Integrative Medicine, University of Witten-Herdecke, Germany

Lex Rutten MD, homeopathic physician, independent researcher.

References:

Max Ehrenfreund, The Science of Wikipedia Flamewars, Washington Post. July 23, 2013. http://www.washingtonpost.com/blogs/wonkblog/wp/2013/07/23/the-science-of-wikipedia-flamewars/

Shang A, Huwiler-Müntener K, Nartey L, et al. (2005). “Are the clinical effects of homoeopathy placebo effects? Comparative study of placebo-controlled trials of homoeopathy and allopathy”. Lancet 366 (9487): 726-32. doi:10.1016/S0140-6736(05)67177-2 . PMID 16125589 . http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pubmed/16125589

Ludtke R, Rutten ALB. The conclusions on the effectiveness of homeopathy highly depend on the set of analysed trials. Journal of Clinical Epidemiology. October 2008. doi: 10.1016/j.jclinepi.2008.06/015. http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pubmed/18834714

Dana Ullman. The Disinformation Campaign Against Homeopathy. HuffingtonPost. http://www.huffingtonpost.com/dana-ullman/disinformation-about-homeopathy_b_952967.html

Zoe Mullan, senior editor at The Lancet, acknowledged in the publication’s press release for this article, “Professor Egger stated at the onset that he expected to find that homeopathy had no effect other than that of placebo. His ‘conflict’ was therefore transparent. We saw this as sufficient” EHM News Bureau, 2005). The editors chose not to inform readers of this bias.

Bornhöft G, Wolf U, von Ammon K, Righetti M, Maxion-Bergemann S, Baumgartner S, Thurneysen AE, Matthiessen PF. Effectiveness, safety and cost-effectiveness of homeopathy in general practice - summarized health technology assessment. Forschende Komplementärmedizin (2006);13 Suppl 2:19-29. http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pubmed/16883077

Chikramane PS, Kalita D, Suresh AK, Kane SG, Bellare JR. Why Extreme Dilutions Reach Non-zero Asymptotes: A Nanoparticulate Hypothesis Based on Froth Flotation. Langmuir. 2012 Nov http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pubmed/23083226

Demangeat, J.-L, Gries, P, Poitevin, B, Droesbeke J.-J, Zahaf, T, Maton, F, Pierart, C, Muller, RN, Low-Field NMR Water Proton Longitudinal Relaxation in Ultrahighly Diluted Aqueous Solutions of Silica-Lactose Prepared in Glass Material for Pharmaceutical Use, Applied Magnetic Resonance, 26, 2004:465-481.

Bell IR, Schwartz GE. Adaptive network nanomedicine: an integrated model for homeopathic medicine. Frontiers in Bioscience (Scholar Ed) 2013;5(2):685-708. http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pubmed/23277079

Bell IR, et al. Advances in integrative nanomedicine for improving infectious disease treatment in public health. Eur J Integr Med (2012), http://dx.doi.org/10.1016/j.eujim.2012.11.002. http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pmc/articles/PMC3685499/

Bell IR, Koithan M. A model for homeopathic remedy effects: low dose nanoparticles, allostatic cross-adaptation, and time-dependent sensitization in a complex adaptive system. BMC Complementary and Alternative Medicine 2012;12(1):191. http://www.biomedcentral.com/content/pdf/1472-6882-12-191.pdf

Roduner E. Size matters: why nanomaterials are different. Chem. Soc. Rev. 2006;35(7):583-92. http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pubmed/16791330

Bell IR, MD PhD, Ives JA, Jonas WB. Nonlinear Effects of Nanoparticles: Biological Variability From Hormetic Doses, Small Particle Sizes, and Dynamic Adaptive Interactions. Dose Response. May 2014; 12(2): 202-232.Published online Nov 7, 2013. doi: 10.2203/dose-response.13-025. Bell. PMCID: PMC4036395. http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pmc/articles/PMC4036395/

Bell IR, Sarter B, Koithan M, et al. Integrative Nanomedicine: Treating Cancer with Nanoscale Natural Products. Global Advances in Health and Medicine, January 2014. 36-53. http://tinyurl.com/mqe5p88
Armstead AI, Li B. Nanomedicine as an emerging approach against intracellular pathogens. Int J Nanomed. 2011;8(3):188-96. http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pubmed?term=(nanomedicine)%20AND%20ARMSTEAD

Ullman D. Let’s have a serious discussion of nanopharmacology and homeopathy. FASEB J December 2006 20:2661; doi:10.1096/fj.06-1205ufm http://www.fasebj.org/content/20/14/2661.full
Dose-Response: An International Journal. http://www.dose-response.com/

Montagnier L, Aissa J, Ferris S, et al, Electromagnetic Signals Are Produced by Aqueous Nanostructures Derived from Bacterial DNA Sequences. Interdiscip Sci Comput Life Sci (2009) 1: 81-90. http://www.springerlink.com/content/0557v31188m3766x/fulltext.pdf

Enserink M, Newsmaker Interview: Luc Montagnier, French Nobelist Escapes “Intellectual Terror” to Pursue Radical Ideas in China. Science 24 December 2010: Vol. 330 no. 6012 p. 1732. DOI: 10.1126/science.330.6012.1732
http://www.france5.fr/et-vous/France-5-et-vous/Les-programmes/LE-MAG-N-28-2014/articles/p-20549-On-a-retrouve-la-memoire-de-l-eau.htm

Sanger, Larry. Why Citizendium? http://blog.citizendium.org/?p=286"


Fourteen

I skipped this somehow. Great info

Great idea for a show, Dave!  :D

TigerLily

Quote from: Rocketeer on June 14, 2018, 12:35:43 AM
Did you open that link?

It's this:



Yep, even a .gif of tumbleweeds.

Hah! I been had!

TigerLily

Quote from: StarrMountain on June 14, 2018, 12:33:46 AM
Gettin' ready to hit the hay.  Goodnight everyone, good seeing Y'all again. :-*
Enjoy the rest of the show.

G'night Starrling. Enjoy your chocolate

Aquarius

Quote from: WOTR on June 13, 2018, 11:53:39 PM
Do you happen to have handy a very long list of double blind studies that show no patient improvement from the last two hundred years?

I just checked back in briefly before shutting my computer down for the night and saw this.

This is kind of a useless question, imho. I don't think such a list exists, as these studies haven't been done that way for that long at this point.

On the other hand, there are thousands and thousands of meticulously documented medical files and cases from hospitals where patients were treated with the standard western allopathic medicine protocols and the patients died. Should we, on that basis, discard all of western medicine?

Of course not.

Night for real, all.

TigerLily

Quote from: Aquarius on June 14, 2018, 12:39:56 AM
I just checked back in briefly before shutting my computer down for the night and saw this.

This is kind of a useless question, imho. I don't think such a list exists, as these studies haven't been done that way for that long at this point.

On the other hand, there are thousands and thousands of meticulously documented medical files and cases from hospitals where patients were treated with the standard western allopathic medicine protocols and the patients died. Should we, on that basis, discard all of western medicine?

Of course not.

Night for real, all.

Very nice exit line



TigerLily


First thing I wondered was whether there were Native burial grounds

The Hanging Tree
Hinsdale House.


Quote from: StarrMountain on June 14, 2018, 12:33:46 AM
Gettin' ready to hit the hay.  Goodnight everyone, good seeing Y'all again. :-*
Enjoy the rest of the show.
Sleep well Sister Starr.  :)

Quote from: Aquarius on June 14, 2018, 12:39:56 AM
I just checked back in briefly before shutting my computer down for the night and saw this.

This is kind of a useless question, imho. I don't think such a list exists, as these studies haven't been done that way for that long at this point.

On the other hand, there are thousands and thousands of meticulously documented medical files and cases from hospitals where patients were treated with the standard western allopathic medicine protocols and the patients died. Should we, on that basis, discard all of western medicine?

Of course not.

Night for real, all.
G'nght Aquarius.  :)

Savage

Quote from: StarrMountain on June 14, 2018, 12:33:46 AM
Gettin' ready to hit the hay.  Goodnight everyone, good seeing Y'all again. :-*
Enjoy the rest of the show.

Good to see you again :)
[attachment=1]

TigerLily

Ooh. That was pretty scary. Another great show, Dave

Night all

Quote from: TigerLily on June 14, 2018, 12:56:35 AM
Ooh. That was pretty scary. Another great show, Dave

Night all

G'night, TL.


Quote from: Savage on June 14, 2018, 12:56:32 AM
Good to see you again :)
[attachment=1,msg1249110]
'Night Sister Tiger.  ;)

Jojo

Quote from: Savage on June 13, 2018, 11:16:55 PM
"What would homeopathy not cure?"

Best question of the night.

Medical emergencies, crises.  Heart attacks, strokes, high blood pressure crises, choking, anaphylaxis, super high fever, cancer, mega-bacteria, lung disease, bad burns, gaping lacerations, broken bones, and things like those.

But when I had the time (it can take months to a year), I had great luck with using homeopathy for mild asthma, hives, finger warts, heat sensitivity, nervousness, and colds.  Sometimes just when the body is about to heal for the final time, a huge flare up can come.  For instance, for hives, I usually took a few tablets a day.  The hives reduced, even instantly.  After about a year, suddenly I had to use 15 tablets.  But, after that, I never had hives again.  So, it's a little mysterious.  Sometimes things get worse before they get better.  It was a wonderful success, though.  A permanent success which Benadryl never would have made.   :D


Fourteen


Jojo

Quote from: TigerLily on June 14, 2018, 12:36:11 AM
I skipped this somehow. Great info
It was a buried underneath a lot of b.s.   One of the reasons studies are hard to find is because Wikipedia won't allow them in either. 
Have a good night.

Fourteen

Dr. MD MD

Quote from: 14 on June 14, 2018, 01:00:34 AM
Medical emergencies, crises.  Heart attacks, strokes, high blood pressure crises, choking, anaphylaxis, super high fever, cancer, mega-bacteria, lung disease, bad burns, gaping lacerations, broken bones, and things like those.

But when I had the time (it can take months to a year), I had great luck with using homeopathy for mild asthma, hives, finger warts, heat sensitivity, nervousness, and colds.  Sometimes just when the body is about to heal for the final time, a huge flare up can come.  For instance, for hives, I usually took a few tablets a day.  The hives reduced, even instantly.  After about a year, suddenly I had to use 15 tablets.  But, after that, I never had hives again.  So, it's a little mysterious.  Sometimes things get worse before they get better.  It was a wonderful success, though.  A permanent success which Benadryl never would have made.   :D


Fourteen

Fifty


FIFY

;)

Rocketeer

Quote from: 14 on June 14, 2018, 12:29:21 AM
And...
https://www.huffingtonpost.com/dana-ullman/dysfunction-at-wikipedia-_b_5924226.html

By Dana Ullman


Ullman's citations are surprising -- because they totally cancel her article

Check out the Findings and Interpretations abstract of just one:

"INTERPRETATION: Biases are present in placebo-controlled trials of both homoeopathy and conventional medicine. When account was taken for these biases in the analysis, there was weak evidence for a specific effect of homoeopathic remedies, but strong evidence for specific effects of conventional interventions. This finding is compatible with the notion that the clinical effects of homoeopathy are placebo effects."

Here's another one, more damning:

"AUTHORS' CONCLUSIONS:  This review found preliminary data in support of the efficacy of topical calendula for prophylaxis of acute dermatitis [aka, a flower-based ointment to treat a rash] during radiotherapy and Traumeel S mouthwash in the treatment of chemotherapy-induced stomatitis [mouth rash]. These trials need replicating. There is no convincing evidence for the efficacy of homeopathic medicines for other adverse effects of cancer treatments. Further research is required."

Etc.

Scrutiny is critical.

Quote from: 14 on June 14, 2018, 01:02:52 AM
It was a buried underneath a lot of b.s.   One of the reasons studies are hard to find is because Wikipedia won't allow them in either. 

Nah.  Studies are the bread and butter of scientific R&D --  but they're not magical or ironclad.  Consensus can take a long time.
The bibliography in Ullman's article does not work as evidence of homeopathic efficacy (see samples above).

Jojo

Quote from: Dr. MD MD on June 14, 2018, 01:05:23 AM
FIFY

;)
:) Do what you like, Dear.  I'm glad you're here.

Fourteen

Jojo

Quote from: Rocketeer on June 14, 2018, 01:13:51 AM
Ullman's citations are surprising -- because they totally cancel her article

Check out the Findings and Interpretations abstract of just one:

"INTERPRETATION: Biases are present in placebo-controlled trials of both homoeopathy and conventional medicine. When account was taken for these biases in the analysis, there was weak evidence for a specific effect of homoeopathic remedies, but strong evidence for specific effects of conventional interventions. This finding is compatible with the notion that the clinical effects of homoeopathy are placebo effects."

Here's another one, more damning:

"AUTHORS' CONCLUSIONS:  This review found preliminary data in support of the efficacy of topical calendula for prophylaxis of acute dermatitis [aka, a flower-based ointment to treat a rash] during radiotherapy and Traumeel S mouthwash in the treatment of chemotherapy-induced stomatitis [mouth rash]. These trials need replicating. There is no convincing evidence for the efficacy of homeopathic medicines for other adverse effects of cancer treatments. Further research is required."

Etc.

Scrutiny is critical.

Nah.  Studies are the bread and butter of scientific R&D --  but they're not magical or ironclad.  Consensus can take a long time.
The bibliography in Ullman's article does not work as evidence of homeopathic efficacy (see samples above).

Ullman's article quotes sources on both sides of the debate.  People can make up their own minds; I'm not here to push an agenda necessarily.

Yes, studies are bread and butter, but if Wiki won't allow a homeopath to publish studies, while they allow doctors to publish studies, then it does make homeopathic research studies harder for the lay-person to obtain.

Fourteen


DaveSchrader

Sweet Dreams, Children of the Night!

DS

Jojo

Quote from: Dr. MD MD on June 13, 2018, 11:49:42 PM
Good point, Starr! This is a problem I have with homeopathy. They want you to give up caffeine!
:o
Dear Doctor:
You may have caffeine 20 minutes prior and 20 minutes after a dose.  Just not during the dose.  You can go 40 minutes without a fix?

Fourteen

Jojo

Quote from: DaveSchrader on June 14, 2018, 01:21:55 AM
Sweet Dreams, Children of the Night!

DS
Same to y'all!

Fourteen

Jackstar

So this is an AOL chatroom now? Cool.

Quote from: Jackstar on June 14, 2018, 01:43:35 AM
So this is an AOL chatroom now? Cool.

Aren't they extinct?
So 1999!

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