Missing Malaysian Airlines Flight and Speculation

[area51drone]

I'm sure boeing could tell you, but it probably glides down rather quickly, unless it has become tail heavy for some reason, then it would nose up, lose lift and stall, which might make it drop like a rock.   I don't know how aircraft are designed for sure, but it's my guess that they put CG slightly forward to get it to dive the nose instead of lift up.  I know a Cessna will glide.  It would also depend on how the pilot has the elevator trimmed, assuming he died before the plane ran out of fuel.

If I get time tonight, I'll give it a shot on FSX with an even trim and let you know what the simulator does....  of course, that's just one sim and x-plane would probably be more accurate, but I don't have it installed.  Interestingly enough, I have never shut off the engines for no reason when I've simmed flights of larger aircraft like that, so it would be a fun experiment.

[Grov505th]

I'm sure boeing could tell you, but it probably glides down rather quickly, unless it has become tail heavy for some reason, then it would nose up, lose lift and stall, which might make it drop like a rock.    If I get time tonight, I'll give it a shot on FSX and let you know what the simulator says....  of course, that's just one sim and x-plane would probably be more accurate, but I don't have it installed.

I would have to agree with area51 on this one, Is the 777 a straight Fly by wire?  If there was a fire and or something happens to the computers would that cause it to drop like a brick?
I have heard that the B2 and F117 are like that, without the computers those planes are unflyable.

[area51drone]

I would have to agree with area51 on this one, Is the 777 a straight Fly by wire?  If there was a fire and or something happens to the computers would that cause it to drop like a brick?
I have heard that the B2 and F117 are like that, without the computers those planes are unflyable.

Even if it is fly by wire, I'd be willing to bet that there are fail safes that would level out that particular control system, if for example, the wing isn't talking properly with the cockpit.   But who knows, maybe they figure if that happens you're screwed anyway.  It's a very interesting question.   

[VtaGeezer]

Can't this type gear be towed by both surface ships and helos as well?

Towed-array sonars of the sort with the sensitivity for this task are not commercial and not commonly portable between platforms like survey (side scan) sonar systems. 

[VtaGeezer]

A wild-eyed speculation I had was whether the rise to 45K feet (which is still a very dodgy data point) may have been a desperate attempt to starve a fire of O2.

[Grov505th]

Even if it is fly by wire, I'd be willing to bet that there are fail safes that would level out that particular control system, if for example, the wing isn't talking properly with the cockpit.   But who knows, maybe they figure if that happens you're screwed anyway.  It's a very interesting question.

I know that the B2 has 3 back ups.....but agian who really knows what happend

[Grov505th]

A wild-eyed speculation I had was whether the rise to 45K feet (which is still a very dodgy data point) may have been a desperate attempt to starve a fire of O2.

I think a guy had put forth that idea too....That would also point to the rapid decsent...get down low enough for the passangers to get O2

[Juan]

They also have a P8 from Naval Air Station Jacksonville - P8s are replacing the P3s in part because they can stay on station longer.

[Grov505th]

They also have a P8 from Naval Air Station Jacksonville - P8s are replacing the P3s in part because they can stay on station longer.

and the P3 airframes are older then dirt, My dads last duty station was NAS Pax river and he was working on testing the replacments, the one he helped with turned into the E6 Tacamo plane.

[VtaGeezer]

and the P3 airframes are older then dirt.

Yep...almost as old as the B-52s.

[Grov505th]

Yep...almost as old as the B-52s.

True and used in a harsher enviroment...salt water plays havoc with airframes

[Grov505th]

Heres something that might help, the Aussies are dropping GPS bouys so they can track the currents in the area and see maybe in which direction the debries will float and or wash up.

[Uncle Duke]

Towed-array sonars of the sort with the sensitivity for this task are not commercial and not commonly portable between platforms like survey (side scan) sonar systems.

Wasn't suggesting they swap towed arrays between seaborne/helo platforms, but was asking if surface. ships and helos had their own towed array gear.  Have since confirmed the technology is used in surface vessels, still don' t know if helos still use only the dip/hover gear Grov505th alluded to earlier.

[Grov505th]

Wasn't suggesting they swap towed arrays between seaborne/helo platforms, but was asking if surface. ships and helos had their own towed array gear.  Have since confirmed the technology is used in surface vessels, still don' t know if helos still use only the dip/hover gear Grov505th alluded to earlier.

Looked into it and as far as I can see no Helos only use the dipping sonar, towed array is sub/surface vessel only.

[Uncle Duke]

A wild-eyed speculation I had was whether the rise to 45K feet (which is still a very dodgy data point) may have been a desperate attempt to starve a fire of O2.

If depressurization would snuff out a cabin fire at 45K ft, that same fire would be snuffed out if they depressurized at normal cruise altitude, 30-35ftK ft.

Would be curious to see the boldface procedures for the 777 (or any modern jetliner) to see if depressurization is called out to suffocate cabin fires.

[Yorkshire pud]

Because if you dump the Cabin pressure, everyone not on O2 goes night night.

Yes, but it's possible to do that at normal cruising altitude. Cargo aircraft can dump the O2 in the cabin in the case of fire, leaving the cockpit untouched, not needing to climb to 45K. The altitude in itself above about 30000 would be an irrelevance as far as PAX O2 is concerned, whether the engines could function at 45 is another matter, as well as the ability for the wings to gain any lift.

[Yorkshire pud]

Jimmy Church raised an interesting question last night.  What happens when a 777 runs out of gas?  Does it drop like a rock, or does it glide down?

Read thirty seconds to impact by Peter and Maria Burkill: 777 approaching Heathrow and lost power...co-pilot, cleaned the wings, and glided it in. It's main undercarriage hit the grass just before the runway edge and 'tripped' it up, breaking off the mountings and one leg punched through the wing.

[area51drone]

Read thirty seconds to impact by Peter and Maria Burkill: 777 approaching Heathrow and lost power...co-pilot, cleaned the wings, and glided it in. It's main undercarriage hit the grass just before the runway edge and 'tripped' it up, breaking off the mountings and one leg punched through the wing.

But that was with a pilot who could control the airplane.   I think the question is, if there are no pilots, what does the plane do when it runs out of gas, from say, 30,000 feet?

[Grov505th]

Yes, but it's possible to do that at normal cruising altitude. Cargo aircraft can dump the O2 in the cabin in the case of fire, leaving the cockpit untouched, not needing to climb to 45K. The altitude in itself above about 30000 would be an irrelevance as far as PAX O2 is concerned, whether the engines could function at 45 is another matter, as well as the ability for the wings to gain any lift.

True...Just trying to throw out some ideas why the plane did that....I just dont have any freaking clue, none of this makes any sense.

[Yorkshire pud]

But that was with a pilot who could control the airplane.   I think the question is, if there are no pilots, what does the plane do when it runs out of gas, from say, 30,000 feet?

It crashes..and aeroplane on A/P will fly on a heading at an alt until the fuel runs out and then depending on how it's trimmed, will glide down until it's airspeed drops below stall, then it will descend in a series of swoops until it crashes.

[George Drooly]

Hey, wait a minute -- any chance the plane left Earth orbit?

[Juan]

CNN had on a psychic today.  She saw lots of bodies.

[UnscreenedCaller]

CNN had on a psychic today.  She saw lots of bodies.

Sylvia Browne? ... oh, wait

[Uncle Duke]

Just listened to C2C from last night, late in the second hour (with TWA 800 conspiracy guru James Sanders as his "expert"guest) George took a call from a guy who claimed he was a former Canadian spook.  He explained the CIA and NSA had watched the Malaysian air liner with satellites and know it's on the ground "49 Km northwest of Kazakhstan" where the passengers and crew are being held hostage with the intent to exchange them for prisoners at Gitmo. 

Guess that solves that.  Who needs Dames or a psychic when a tasty Canuck is willing to call an international radio and spill the beans?

[yumyumtree]

A possible murder/suicide theory would be that the (crazy) pilot killed his co-pilot, disabled the transponders, etc, and programmed the plane on a flight path to nowhere in the Indian Ocean, that included going to an altitude that would kill everyone, including the pilot early on. The plane would eventually run out of fuel, and drop into the ocean, along with all of the (now dead) passengers.

This is a few days old and I missed the show but it was recapped Free Republic. On March 18 a caller claiming to be a retired 777 pilot called the Rush Limbaugh show. He says that the  plane is most likely at the bottom of the ocean and nothing will be found because the debris field is too small. His theory is that the pilot and co-pilot got into a fight because one wanted to do something terrorist or suicidal. The plane went way up to 43,000 or whatever, then way down. He claims that the notion that passengers would die very quickly from depressurization is not correct. He says that they would lose consciousness first and die over about 20 minutes. Since this was a night flight, a lot of them would be asleep to begin with.
Since I didnt actually hear him, I can't assess his authenticity and neither can Rush. Anybody can call a radio show claiming any kind of credentials.

[West of the Rockies]

Short answer?  In my opinion, Hannity is one of the least intelligent talking heads out there whose ignorance is matched by his avarice -- ratings, baby!  If it bleeds, it leads...)

[Designx]

Short answer?  In my opinion, Hannity is one of the least intelligent talking heads out there whose ignorance is matched by his avarice -- ratings, baby!  If it bleeds, it leads...)

I agree, but I think all the media outlets are milking this story as long as possible. They don't want a resolution to the story. There always seems to be a push to elevate something to higher and higher levels of hellishness.
So if the media's only interest is to keep the people glued - this is what I surmise they would be elated to have happen.

1. Plane hijacked.
2. Plane found in Pakistan.
3. Paki government and terrorist group blamed.
4. Threats exchanged
5. "Intelligence" gathered - military action is found to be ONLY option.
6. Iran thrown into the mix somehow.
7. Media begins sob stories on passengers to promote need for military action. Other patriotic/religious propaganda comes out as well.
8. War.
9. News media profits.

[West of the Rockies]

That sounds like a fairly likely situation!  Spot on, sadly enough (in terms of the MSM dream scenario).

[area51drone]

Well, I don't have a 777 installed, so I tried the experiment of climbing to 30,000 feet, shutting off autopilot cutting the engines at 30,000 feet with a 737-300.  It just glided down, no swooping, no stalling, just a final crash.  From the angle it crashed, I would guess it would be a pretty bad, but it wasn't severe - maybe 10-15 degrees?  Certainly wouldn't be something that would keep the plane intact.

[George Drooly]

Anybody can call a radio show claiming any kind of credentials.

That works for the hosts as well